Shadowcash vs. Monero, an unbiased debate.

[LiteBit]

 
I am not sure the world is big enough for two totally successful anonymous cryptocurrencies.

Yes it is

1. Developers are capable of changing to PoW if a vulnerability in PoSv2 presents itself, yes?

- Switching to PoW is possible as (1) a hybrid PoS/PoW or (2) straight PoW if the security of PoS was indeed an issue.
- If SDC moved to PoW they'd have to increase money supply and (like mentioned above) the social contract and community trust will be greatly impacted even if successful.
- Other coin projects have gone from PoW to PoS, nobody has gone from PoS to PoW.

Other thoughts:
- I agree 100% XMR distribution is better than SDC. Shadow is very top heavy 1 year into the project.
- Both Dev teams have at least one in-house cryptographer.
- Shadow is currently testing a new ring-sig algo that makes it ~40% leaner
- Monero doesn't have a core GUI but has at least 5 independent wallet GUIs.
- Shadow has a core GUI that also has encrypted chat built in (+ ultimately a marketplace)

Debatable topic: Monero's single token (100% private) system to Shadow's dual token (public & 100% private) system.
- Which is better and do you really need 2 coins to do what 1 can do flawlessly?

[1715478608]

1715478608

[1715478608]

1715478608

[1715478608]

1715478608

[smooth]

Does Monero intend to develop an i2p market as well? I'm not familiar with the plans. If it intends to solely cater to the TOR-based DNMs, well, ok... TOR is not what it used to be thanks to the NSA, and centralized markets are going to be a dying breed, thanks to exit scams, and the NSA.

Having a fully integrated system is one of the major reasons the shadow project could be so revolutionary, not just in the crypto space. Convenience carries a major value and decreases the barriers to entry=mass market adoption.  

It isn't on our project agenda, but you should keep in mind that the nature of Monero is that a lot of projects get done by third parties (this is not just a bold theory but is already reality with projects like xmr.to, moneroaddress.com, monerowallet.com, etc.), so someone else may well do one.

[erok]

IMO POS on mobile devices ftw. Shit will get more efficient. Add a marketplace and boom full economic solution. I think most of the world is still waiting for someone to actually audit the process of sdc>sdt and whether that transition is definitively needed for true zk anon. But I am a fan of SDC because of regular dev updates and an obvious progression in development so I am biased. But you do get the same from all these monero devs that are present in this thread.

I like Monero too. I have held some but I did not see a direction for application IRL so I bailed. I think that, personally, what it boils down to for me is this; "where are things going?". I think SDC is on the right track and will fill an AIO gap that should push crazy volume.  But that assumes it launches the marketplace and audit. Without those two things SDC is just like Monero... A good coin without a target audience except for dm. Everyone is waiting so a thread like this is really premature unless it solely focuses on the sdc>sdt transition to be a thread of substance instead of dev fud. Someone should like... audit them both or something instead of saying what their opinion is. This is very easy to break down key points.

Either a coin is capable of zk-anon or it is not.
Either a coin has real world application or it does not.
Either a coin is capable of scaling with technology and social awareness in an efficient way or it does not.

[benthach]

both are shit coins and both bagholders are going mental meltdowns

[fluffypony]

IMO POS on mobile devices ftw. Shit will get more efficient.

The most efficient thing is a fully centralised banking system.

Everyone using cryptocurrencies (at this stage of the game) should reallyyyyyy understand that "efficient" does not correlate with "secure", "trustless", "cryptographically secure", or "decentralised". It saddens me that proponents of Proof-of-Stake systems are incapable of understanding how much risk they're offloading on to users, the very same users that are trusting the system to look after so much of their wealth.

I think most of the world is still waiting for someone to actually audit the process of sdc>sdt and whether that transition is definitively needed for true zk anon.

I think most of the world has no idea what most of those words mean, and don't care about any of this;)

I like Monero too. I have held some but I did not see a direction for application IRL so I bailed. I think that, personally, what it boils down to for me is this; "where are things going?". I think SDC is on the right track and will fill an AIO gap that should push crazy volume.  But that assumes it launches the marketplace and audit.

You sound like someone selling Network21 or Amway.

Bitcoin is doing just fine, in spite of it not having a "real world use" or "industrial use-case" or whatever the hipsters are blaming nowadays. Instead of looking for a killer application to "push crazy volume" (a pump-and-dump term if I ever saw one), I think the focus should be on creating a truly fungible cryptocurrency that defends and aggressively protects user's rights and privacy.

[cryptohunter]

IMO POS on mobile devices ftw. Shit will get more efficient.

The most efficient thing is a fully centralised banking system.

Everyone using cryptocurrencies (at this stage of the game) should reallyyyyyy understand that "efficient" does not correlate with "secure", "trustless", "cryptographically secure", or "decentralised". It saddens me that proponents of Proof-of-Stake systems are incapable of understanding how much risk they're offloading on to users, the very same users that are trusting the system to look after so much of their wealth.

I think most of the world is still waiting for someone to actually audit the process of sdc>sdt and whether that transition is definitively needed for true zk anon.

I think most of the world has no idea what most of those words mean, and don't care about any of this;)

I like Monero too. I have held some but I did not see a direction for application IRL so I bailed. I think that, personally, what it boils down to for me is this; "where are things going?". I think SDC is on the right track and will fill an AIO gap that should push crazy volume.  But that assumes it launches the marketplace and audit.

You sound like someone selling Network21 or Amway.

Bitcoin is doing just fine, in spite of it not having a "real world use" or "industrial use-case" or whatever the hipsters are blaming nowadays. Instead of looking for a killer application to "push crazy volume" (a pump-and-dump term if I ever saw one), I think the focus should be on creating a truly fungible cryptocurrency that defends and aggressively protects user's rights and privacy.

Can you explain in terms a non coder can understand why POS is without doubt far more risky than pow. I would really like to know why ?  This argument seems to have been going every since ppc came along.

Some devs of some pretty important coins seem to refute this claim.

Is there some chart showing the possible attack vectors for each and the resulting outcome and damage.

POS+POW was thought to be more risky thann just POS.

[smooth]

Some devs of some pretty important coins seem to refute this claim.

There is really only one "important" coin and that's Bitcoin, maybe. It has something like 95% market cap share (though it only a minuscule near-zero market cap share compared to fiat banking). Its developers have certainly not refuted the claim that PoS is a sham when it comes to any sort of real long-term decentralized security.

The rest are long-shot attempts to become important, with varying degrees of scamminess and developers who are varying degrees of full of shit in promoting their coin/agenda/sham. That certainly includes both of the coins being discussed here.

[mistercashking]

1 reason. Why I like ShadowCash and respect it.


http://aboutshadow.com/index.php/bug-and-bounty-program

[cryptohunter]

Some devs of some pretty important coins seem to refute this claim.

There is really only one "important" coin and that's Bitcoin, maybe. It has something like 95% market cap share (though it only a minuscule near-zero market cap share compared to fiat banking). Its developers have certainly not refuted the claim that PoS is a sham when it comes to any sort of real long-term decentralized security.

The rest are long-shot attempts to become important, with varying degrees of scamminess and developers who are varying degrees of full of shit in promoting their coin/agenda/sham. That certainly includes both of the coins being discussed here.

Important in terms of alt coins i should have said.

So POS is a sham? it's as clear cut as that? can you explain why?  does it not help mitigate some of the vulnerabilities of POW only?

Why are coins like PPC and blackcoin etc not attacked more regularly? or will it be more of a long term issue they are facing?

[smooth]

Some devs of some pretty important coins seem to refute this claim.

There is really only one "important" coin and that's Bitcoin, maybe. It has something like 95% market cap share (though it only a minuscule near-zero market cap share compared to fiat banking). Its developers have certainly not refuted the claim that PoS is a sham when it comes to any sort of real long-term decentralized security.

The rest are long-shot attempts to become important, with varying degrees of scamminess and developers who are varying degrees of full of shit in promoting their coin/agenda/sham. That certainly includes both of the coins being discussed here.

Important in terms of alt coins i should have said.

So POS is a sham? it's as clear cut as that? can you explain why?  does it not help mitigate some of the vulnerabilities of POW only?

You are talking about complex systems with complex analysis. This is complicated by the fact that every PoS system is slightly different and PoS supporters can, and do, make subtle changes to their systems when presented with flaws, or order to "fix" the flaws. In formal and security analysis, any change, however subtle, means the analysis needs to be completely redone. Obviously you can see how this might make it infeasible to keep up with every new variation and show how each and every one of them are broken in specific detail.

Nevertheless it is possible to analyze these systems in broad terms and reach conclusions in terms of general principles, such as needing to consume some external resource (i.e. proof of "work", broadly) in order to reach a decentralized consensus.

This is explained by a Bitcoin developer here:

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

"We showed that by depending only on resources within the system, proof of stake cannot be used to form a distributed consensus, since it depends on the very history it is trying to form to enforce loss of value"

[Diplo]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

[smooth]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

You raise real questions and indeed PoW may fail. That doesn't make PoS a success, it just makes it the other fail.

[erok]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

Exactly! pow is going to get to the point where people don't even want to mess around with it because they would rather have a wallet staking built into their glasses or some shit (future be crazy).

And damn you flufy, amway is a straight up ponzi scheme and I am nowhere near a peddler nor am I a thief. I usually try to warn people against scams. This whole entire thread is basically you and smooth shitting on SDC from afar with no real data to back what you think your opinions might probably be. Of course you two are partial to your own coin. And I don't give a shit about BTC as I am sure most of the people reading this feel the same way. I was not talking about BTC real world use, I was talking about Monero and how Monero has no direction in terms of where it wants to be in a year and how it wants to be used. SDC's plans are clear cut... was my point. WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

There is no proof that POW is superior to POS. If there was then people wouldnt use adjectives like "I think" and "probably". Hybrid POW launch and POS to sustain the network for the fucking win.

Also, I have an open mind and will throw money at Monero if you guys can tell me where you will be in a year and why you think POS is teh suck. But if you respond with "just cuz" like you have been, then you wont get a dime.

[smooth]

WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

We have zero plans to "push" volume, although some in the community might do so. For example there is someone running around trying to actively promote XMR to China investors now. I wish him the best.

But for the project itself to push anything like that is antithetical to our whole approach, which basically comes down to building and supporting the code and the community and then getting out of the way.

[erok]

WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

We have zero plans to "push" volume, although some in the community might do so. For example there is someone running around trying to actively promote XMR to China investors now. I wish him the best.

But for the project itself to push anything like that is antithetical to our whole approach, which basically comes down to building and supporting the code and the community and then getting out of the way.

You need to find a target market for your crypto imo. That is what so many people have realized over the past 2 years. PPC is a good example of that. You as a dev could program gold but who would know if you didn't tell them. The Satoshi effect can only work once. I respect your opinion to create and let people decide but that only goes so far.

Really what we need is someone that isn't scared of having their life ripped apart stand up publicly for an anon crypto. Someone with gumption and intelligence. Not a team that sits back and hopes for the best. IMO noone is covering that base right now and it's about to get stolen by eth and no one wants that.

[Wheatclove]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

Exactly! pow is going to get to the point where people don't even want to mess around with it because they would rather have a wallet staking built into their glasses or some shit (future be crazy).

And damn you flufy, amway is a straight up ponzi scheme and I am nowhere near a peddler nor am I a thief. I usually try to warn people against scams. This whole entire thread is basically you and smooth shitting on SDC from afar with no real data to back what you think your opinions might probably be. Of course you two are partial to your own coin. And I don't give a shit about BTC as I am sure most of the people reading this feel the same way. I was not talking about BTC real world use, I was talking about Monero and how Monero has no direction in terms of where it wants to be in a year and how it wants to be used. SDC's plans are clear cut... was my point. WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

There is no proof that POW is superior to POS. If there was then people wouldnt use adjectives like "I think" and "probably". Hybrid POW launch and POS to sustain the network for the fucking win.

Also, I have an open mind and will throw money at Monero if you guys can tell me where you will be in a year and why you think POS is teh suck. But if you respond with "just cuz" like you have been, then you wont get a dime.

It sounds like the monero devs are just having fun coding, building a strong piece of software and increasing their professional portfolios. It's pretty admirable: coding to code. I like to believe the SDC devs are doing the same. Ryno and TV aren't funded and have no sponsorships.

[erok]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

Exactly! pow is going to get to the point where people don't even want to mess around with it because they would rather have a wallet staking built into their glasses or some shit (future be crazy).

And damn you flufy, amway is a straight up ponzi scheme and I am nowhere near a peddler nor am I a thief. I usually try to warn people against scams. This whole entire thread is basically you and smooth shitting on SDC from afar with no real data to back what you think your opinions might probably be. Of course you two are partial to your own coin. And I don't give a shit about BTC as I am sure most of the people reading this feel the same way. I was not talking about BTC real world use, I was talking about Monero and how Monero has no direction in terms of where it wants to be in a year and how it wants to be used. SDC's plans are clear cut... was my point. WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

There is no proof that POW is superior to POS. If there was then people wouldnt use adjectives like "I think" and "probably". Hybrid POW launch and POS to sustain the network for the fucking win.

Also, I have an open mind and will throw money at Monero if you guys can tell me where you will be in a year and why you think POS is teh suck. But if you respond with "just cuz" like you have been, then you wont get a dime.

It sounds like the monero devs are just having fun coding, building a strong piece of software and increasing their professional portfolios. It's pretty admirable: coding to code. I like to believe the SDC devs are doing the same. Ryno and TV aren't funded and have no sponsorships.

Totally admirable.  But it is also a non-sequitur for this convo.

[Wheatclove]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

Exactly! pow is going to get to the point where people don't even want to mess around with it because they would rather have a wallet staking built into their glasses or some shit (future be crazy).

And damn you flufy, amway is a straight up ponzi scheme and I am nowhere near a peddler nor am I a thief. I usually try to warn people against scams. This whole entire thread is basically you and smooth shitting on SDC from afar with no real data to back what you think your opinions might probably be. Of course you two are partial to your own coin. And I don't give a shit about BTC as I am sure most of the people reading this feel the same way. I was not talking about BTC real world use, I was talking about Monero and how Monero has no direction in terms of where it wants to be in a year and how it wants to be used. SDC's plans are clear cut... was my point. WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

There is no proof that POW is superior to POS. If there was then people wouldnt use adjectives like "I think" and "probably". Hybrid POW launch and POS to sustain the network for the fucking win.

Also, I have an open mind and will throw money at Monero if you guys can tell me where you will be in a year and why you think POS is teh suck. But if you respond with "just cuz" like you have been, then you wont get a dime.

It sounds like the monero devs are just having fun coding, building a strong piece of software and increasing their professional portfolios. It's pretty admirable: coding to code. I like to believe the SDC devs are doing the same. Ryno and TV aren't funded and have no sponsorships.

Totally admirable.  But it is also a non-sequitur for this convo.

Completely relevant if their motivation is putting out a solid product instead of making a quick dollar.

[erok]

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

Exactly! pow is going to get to the point where people don't even want to mess around with it because they would rather have a wallet staking built into their glasses or some shit (future be crazy).

And damn you flufy, amway is a straight up ponzi scheme and I am nowhere near a peddler nor am I a thief. I usually try to warn people against scams. This whole entire thread is basically you and smooth shitting on SDC from afar with no real data to back what you think your opinions might probably be. Of course you two are partial to your own coin. And I don't give a shit about BTC as I am sure most of the people reading this feel the same way. I was not talking about BTC real world use, I was talking about Monero and how Monero has no direction in terms of where it wants to be in a year and how it wants to be used. SDC's plans are clear cut... was my point. WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

There is no proof that POW is superior to POS. If there was then people wouldnt use adjectives like "I think" and "probably". Hybrid POW launch and POS to sustain the network for the fucking win.

Also, I have an open mind and will throw money at Monero if you guys can tell me where you will be in a year and why you think POS is teh suck. But if you respond with "just cuz" like you have been, then you wont get a dime.

It sounds like the monero devs are just having fun coding, building a strong piece of software and increasing their professional portfolios. It's pretty admirable: coding to code. I like to believe the SDC devs are doing the same. Ryno and TV aren't funded and have no sponsorships.

Totally admirable.  But it is also a non-sequitur for this convo.

Completely relevant if their motivation is putting out a solid product instead of making a quick dollar.

In the title of the thread it says unbiased (which is odd because most of the posts are from monero devs) should negate any opinion based arguments as well as intentions.

[Diplo]

I think the shadow devs are too busy working to be spending time browsing btt. Every minute counts. Its an arms race at the end of the day, whether people will admit it or not.