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Author Topic: Noam Chomsky - Anarchism and misguided Libertarians  (Read 1579 times)
polychenko
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August 01, 2015, 07:24:06 AM
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"what’s called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon, it doesn’t really exist anywhere else — a little bit in England — permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power:  so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes.  The assumption is that by some kind of magic, concentrated private power will lead to a more free and just society...

just a call for some of the worst kinds of tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny."

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians?sc=fb

Hard to put semantics to one side in terms of correct definition of libertarianism send anarchism, but above statement seems an important point. Why America's obsession with libertarianism?!
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saddampbuh
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August 01, 2015, 09:50:44 AM
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might be because america has the highest proportion of non white parasitic minorities in the developed world. people don't like being taxed to support black welfare queens with 6 kids by different men.

Be radical, have principles, be absolute, be that which the bourgeoisie calls an extremist: give yourself without counting or calculating, don't accept what they call ‘the reality of life' and act in such a way that you won't be accepted by that kind of ‘life', never abandon the principle of struggle.
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August 01, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
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Why America's obsession with libertarianism?!
First of all, this isn't America's obsession. Libertarians are a vocal minority on the internet. They come from Christian conservative Republican parents and they're trying to rebel by using this weak platform of "social liberalism, economic conservativism", this platform totally ignores the reality that economics (distribution of resources) IS the most social issue of all!



There's also a powerful strain of Randian insanity at play.

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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August 01, 2015, 12:52:10 PM
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"what’s called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon, it doesn’t really exist anywhere else — a little bit in England — permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power:  so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes.  The assumption is that by some kind of magic, concentrated private power will lead to a more free and just society...

just a call for some of the worst kinds of tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny."

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians?sc=fb

Hard to put semantics to one side in terms of correct definition of libertarianism send anarchism, but above statement seems an important point. Why America's obsession with libertarianism?!

While the conservative political movement has many brilliant thinkers, the Left has only one - Noam Chomsky.  For this reason the article is worth reading.  He is rather boring, though.  Nim Chimsky I prefer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky
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August 01, 2015, 02:44:06 PM
 #5

First of all, this isn't America's obsession. Libertarians are a vocal minority on the internet. They come from Christian conservative Republican parents and they're trying to rebel by using this weak platform of "social liberalism, economic conservativism", this platform totally ignores the reality that economics (distribution of resources) IS the most social issue of all!

Said the socialist. Socialism is well known for its excellent sustainable economic models Wink

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August 01, 2015, 02:49:06 PM
 #6

First of all, this isn't America's obsession. Libertarians are a vocal minority on the internet. They come from Christian conservative Republican parents and they're trying to rebel by using this weak platform of "social liberalism, economic conservativism", this platform totally ignores the reality that economics (distribution of resources) IS the most social issue of all!

Said the socialist. Socialism is well known for its excellent sustainable economic models Wink
My new world is only in the early fetal stages of life, its birth is still some years away, rest assured though,  it will be born from the corpse of capitalism.

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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August 01, 2015, 03:24:22 PM
 #7

First of all, this isn't America's obsession. Libertarians are a vocal minority on the internet. They come from Christian conservative Republican parents and they're trying to rebel by using this weak platform of "social liberalism, economic conservativism", this platform totally ignores the reality that economics (distribution of resources) IS the most social issue of all!

Said the socialist. Socialism is well known for its excellent sustainable economic models Wink
My new world is only in the early fetal stages of life, its birth is still some years away, rest assured though,  it will be born from the corpse of capitalism.

So what you are saying is the socialism of the past was never true socialism?




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August 01, 2015, 03:32:01 PM
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Americans to me seem to tend to either not know what socialism or libertarianism is or they have a completely different definition of the rest of the world (and Chomsky says something similar). They always seem to think socialism is some great evil but that's because they just believe the fearmongering and propoganda.
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August 01, 2015, 05:39:23 PM
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might be because america has the highest proportion of non white parasitic minorities in the developed world. people don't like being taxed to support black welfare queens with 6 kids by different men.

Nobody likes being taxed, period.

Part of the problem with US Libertarian idealists is that they've got this elaborate (yet flaky) house-of-cards built up about how politics and the economy and everything "ought" to be, but at the same time they've got these huge blind spots such as opportunity cost.

Thanks to your tax dollars, those welfare queens and their 6 kids aren't hungry enough to murder you in the street for a small amount of pocket money, or just for the protein. Yeah, yeah... you'd much rather have the "freedom" to spend those tax dollars on a private security company to save your ass from being attacked in the streets (and endless toll roads and related shit). And of course that would be far more efficient than public/state services, because free-market competition and stuff, just like Bitcoin miners -- LOL. </sarc>.
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August 01, 2015, 05:43:24 PM
 #10

Well, guess what. The free market chose government as the most efficient means of doing large-scale stuff.
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August 01, 2015, 06:53:53 PM
 #11

Nobody likes being taxed, period.

Part of the problem with US Libertarian idealists is that they've got this elaborate (yet flaky) house-of-cards built up about how politics and the economy and everything "ought" to be, but at the same time they've got these huge blind spots such as opportunity cost.

Thanks to your tax dollars, those welfare queens and their 6 kids aren't hungry enough to murder you in the street for a small amount of pocket money, or just for the protein. Yeah, yeah... you'd much rather have the "freedom" to spend those tax dollars on a private security company to save your ass from being attacked in the streets (and endless toll roads and related shit). And of course that would be far more efficient than public/state services, because free-market competition and stuff, just like Bitcoin miners -- LOL. </sarc>.
i'm not a libertarian nor do i mind being taxed, i do mind being taxed to support whore black welfare queens when they could easily be sent somewhere else or sterilised

Be radical, have principles, be absolute, be that which the bourgeoisie calls an extremist: give yourself without counting or calculating, don't accept what they call ‘the reality of life' and act in such a way that you won't be accepted by that kind of ‘life', never abandon the principle of struggle.
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August 01, 2015, 08:12:38 PM
 #12

Nobody likes being taxed, period.

Part of the problem with US Libertarian idealists is that they've got this elaborate (yet flaky) house-of-cards built up about how politics and the economy and everything "ought" to be, but at the same time they've got these huge blind spots such as opportunity cost.

Thanks to your tax dollars, those welfare queens and their 6 kids aren't hungry enough to murder you in the street for a small amount of pocket money, or just for the protein. Yeah, yeah... you'd much rather have the "freedom" to spend those tax dollars on a private security company to save your ass from being attacked in the streets (and endless toll roads and related shit). And of course that would be far more efficient than public/state services, because free-market competition and stuff, just like Bitcoin miners -- LOL. </sarc>.
i'm not a libertarian nor do i mind being taxed, i do mind being taxed to support whore black welfare queens when they could easily be sent somewhere else or sterilised

I think this racist stuff should be removed or ignored in this thread (in fact from the civilised world in general). Why bring race into it? Black people didn't like being slaved for hundreds of years, then being born into households with little income, wealth, education, or social connections that others take for granted.

blablahblah hit a few nails on the head. Also a matter of short term thinking among libertarian idealists - instead of long-term societal investment via tax (however inefficient), they'd prefer money in the bank now and their children growing up in an apartheid. Not too far off though in the US at the moment, even amongst sunny Yale: http://www.naacpnewhaven.org/wp-content/uploads/NAACP_UrbanApartheid_print_final.pdf
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August 01, 2015, 08:14:48 PM
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Well, guess what. The free market chose government as the most efficient means of doing large-scale stuff.
Well, guess what.  It did in fact do that in certain places.   And then it self corrected...

lol...

Nobody likes being taxed, period.

Part of the problem with US Libertarian idealists is that they've got this elaborate (yet flaky) house-of-cards built up about how politics and the economy and everything "ought" to be, but at the same time they've got these huge blind spots such as opportunity cost.

Thanks to your tax dollars, those welfare queens and their 6 kids aren't hungry enough to murder you in the street for a small amount of pocket money, or just for the protein. Yeah, yeah... you'd much rather have the "freedom" to spend those tax dollars on a private security company to save your ass from being attacked in the streets (and endless toll roads and related shit). And of course that would be far more efficient than public/state services, because free-market competition and stuff, just like Bitcoin miners -- LOL. </sarc>.
i'm not a libertarian nor do i mind being taxed, i do mind being taxed to support whore black welfare queens when they could easily be sent somewhere else or sterilised

I think this racist stuff should be removed or ignored in this thread (in fact from the civilised world in general). Why bring race into it? Black people didn't like being slaved for hundreds of years, then being born into households with little income, wealth, education, or social connections that others take for granted.

blablahblah hit a few nails on the head. Also a matter of short term thinking among libertarian idealists - instead of long-term societal investment via tax (however inefficient), they'd prefer money in the bank now and their children growing up in an apartheid. Not too far off though in the US at the moment, even amongst sunny Yale: http://www.naacpnewhaven.org/wp-content/uploads/NAACP_UrbanApartheid_print_final.pdf

Just curious.  If we all followed your moral advice, and disallowed what you call "racist stuff," then wouldn't the counter argument to your advocacy of progressive social spending (your words "societal investment") be quashed before it was heard?

Seems that would not be good, right?
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August 01, 2015, 08:27:20 PM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

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polychenko
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August 01, 2015, 08:33:45 PM
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Well, guess what.  It did in fact do that in certain places.   And then it self corrected...
Hasn't worked well for healthcare - UK consensus among healthcare experts is that there is little/no role of private companies in healthcare provision. Growing consensus also for train transport given lack of competition that can realistically occur on 1 line.


Quote
Just curious.  If we all followed your moral advice, and disallowed what you call "racist stuff," then wouldn't the counter argument to your advocacy of progressive social spending (your words "societal investment") be quashed before it was heard?

Seems that would not be good, right?

If I understand you right, I think this is about whether racist opinions should be heard and ignored or banned. Usually the former I'd say. I think the argument is that one can listen to then dismiss racism arguments as being very flawed and toxic. Agree that censoring those views perhaps not helpful, may re-inforce their paranoia.
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August 01, 2015, 08:34:59 PM
 #16

Americans to me seem to tend to either not know what socialism or libertarianism is or they have a completely different definition of the rest of the world (and Chomsky says something similar). They always seem to think socialism is some great evil but that's because they just believe the fearmongering and propoganda.

You are right, all the millions of people killed in the name of socialism were just "propoganda".

BITCOINTALK STAFF SELECTIVELY ENFORCE THE RULES IN AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE A CHILL EFFECT AND PERMANENTLY REMOVE ME AND OTHERS FROM THIS FORUM AS RETALIATION FOR SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR, AND THAT OF THEIR PERSONAL CLIQUES.
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August 01, 2015, 08:48:43 PM
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I think this racist stuff should be removed or ignored in this thread (in fact from the civilised world in general). Why bring race into it?
because i resent being taxed to provide for this retrograde subspecies of humanity that my people never wanted anything to do with in the first place

Quote
Black people didn't like being slaved for hundreds of years, then being born into households with little income, wealth, education, or social connections that others take for granted.
if the lazy black parasite were a uniquely american phenomenon you might be on to something but they exhibit the same dysfunctional behaviours in every country they migrate to as well as back in their own countries in africa

does slavery make them stupid as well?




Quote
blablahblah hit a few nails on the head. Also a matter of short term thinking among libertarian idealists - instead of long-term societal investment via tax (however inefficient), they'd prefer money in the bank now and their children growing up in an apartheid. Not too far off though in the US at the moment, even amongst sunny Yale: http://www.naacpnewhaven.org/wp-content/uploads/NAACP_UrbanApartheid_print_final.pdf
excellent. we can pay them to be voluntarily sterilised and they wont even kick up a fuss.

Be radical, have principles, be absolute, be that which the bourgeoisie calls an extremist: give yourself without counting or calculating, don't accept what they call ‘the reality of life' and act in such a way that you won't be accepted by that kind of ‘life', never abandon the principle of struggle.
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August 01, 2015, 09:03:20 PM
 #18

saddampbuh - happy to debate these issues in another thread, but no more here. Also, happy to bet 1 BTC that I'd win this argument with you. Would recommend you read about the Flynn effect (counters your IQ graph)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect#Rise_in_IQ      and the literature in general about race (eg, white sometimes do worse in school than other races http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmeduc/142/14202.htm ).
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August 01, 2015, 10:45:04 PM
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Well, guess what.  It did in fact do that in certain places.   And then it self corrected...
Hasn't worked well for healthcare - UK consensus among healthcare experts is that there is little/no role of private companies in healthcare provision. Growing consensus also for train transport given lack of competition that can realistically occur on 1 line.


Quote
Just curious.  If we all followed your moral advice, and disallowed what you call "racist stuff," then wouldn't the counter argument to your advocacy of progressive social spending (your words "societal investment") be quashed before it was heard?

Seems that would not be good, right?

If I understand you right, I think this is about whether racist opinions should be heard and ignored or banned. Usually the former I'd say. I think the argument is that one can listen to then dismiss racism arguments as being very flawed and toxic. Agree that censoring those views perhaps not helpful, may re-inforce their paranoia.
It's close enough.  More correctly is that in a democracy he's got the right to say he doesn't want to vote for candidates or programs that give black people money, just like you or I have the right to say we do want to vote for programs that give black people money.

More correctly, the calling of racism seems to be very one sided and used for advantage in debate or framing of arguments, where there really isn't a good argument to present....ergo, shut off the debate by screaming "racism!"  (see....your response about Flynn etc. already reframed the argument presupposing "racism"....)

something like that....
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August 02, 2015, 03:01:44 PM
 #20

Americans to me seem to tend to either not know what socialism or libertarianism is or they have a completely different definition of the rest of the world (and Chomsky says something similar). They always seem to think socialism is some great evil but that's because they just believe the fearmongering and propoganda.
That's correct, Dr. Richard Wolff does a great job explaining how we got that way.

Part 1 Conversations with Great Minds - Dr. Richard Wolff - America's taboo subject

Part 2 - Alternatives to Capitalism


Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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