UK banks' innovation render bitcoin pointless (?)

[Hopalong]

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

There is no trusted member on this forum. It is a buch of anonymous kids buying and selling accounts. I would never trust anyone here.

If normal people need an escrow they want to know who it is and be sure he has no criminal record. That will not be free.

[LiteCoinGuy]

UK banks now enable, with most recent IOS apps:
- moving money from bank to bank effectively instantly (no fees).
- move money to a mobile number, using Paym, bank - > mobile number www.paym.co.uk  (I think no fees)
- enable Apple pay sync (no fees)

I find it very hard to see how bitcoin can become further adopted in the UK given these and other advances. Moloch has rumbled, Moloch has delivered. Anyone disagree?

disagree 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nOfHpOFhN8

[Amph]

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

There is no trusted member on this forum. It is a buch of anonymous kids buying and selling accounts. I would never trust anyone here.

If normal people need an escrow they want to know who it is and be sure he has no criminal record. That will not be free.

then simply use a multisig, so you do not need to trust anyone, they can't run with the money, and you're safe like with a bank, which i find less safe nowayd due to high probability of bankruptcy

also if you can't trust no one, then you should not trust bank either, they are the first thieves

[Hopalong]

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

There is no trusted member on this forum. It is a buch of anonymous kids buying and selling accounts. I would never trust anyone here.

If normal people need an escrow they want to know who it is and be sure he has no criminal record. That will not be free.

then simply use a multisig, so you do not need to trust anyone, they can't run with the money, and you're safe like with a bank, which i find less safe nowayd due to high probability of bankruptcy

also if you can't trust no one, then you should not trust bank either, they are the first thieves

I would not trust any bank out there but my bank has 120 years history and i can check their liquidy. You do check out someone before trusting them? If a bank does not produce a solid income you move your money right away.


Sorry to disapoint you but i dont see bitcoin as usefull at all when compared with real currencys. As a paypal killer it would work but way to cumbersome for day to day use.

[QuintLeo]

Oddly enough, Wells Fargo (which has been around somewhat longer than 120 years) is one of the 2 banks I trust the LEAST, having been ripped off by them at one point.

 Technically, it was a "bank error" they didn't accept was an error, but that's because they couldn't be bothered to look at the FACTS of their mistake (and it WAS THEIR MISTAKE, zero doubt without question).


 I can handle a bank/credit union making a mistake - if they FIX it. I will NOT put up with a bank/CU that refuses to admit they made a mistake, charges ME overdraft fees because of THEIR mistake, and then refuses to LISTEN when I explain that it was their mistake AND WHY IT HAPPENED.

[gentlemand]

Brits are spoilt compared to elsewhere when it comes to banking effectiveness. I've spent a lot of time in the US and it's like a third world country in comparison.

However it's all just tinsel layered on top of the same old crap. Once you get into international payments, which I indulge in pretty often, then it all falls apart again let alone failing to address fundamental issues.

But the main reason Bitcoin is rendered pointless here is because the banks won't give any businesses an account. There's no exchange with a UK account and the options for retail are pitiful compared to America because of that.

If I want coins in a hurry then I'm looking at a 5-10% premium for local buying services compared to exchanges or somewhere like Circle. That pure and simply doesn't add up for anyone looking to transact. Coinbase is in the UK, you just have to send money to Estonia taking days and costing money.

It's probably one of the weakest first world countries for actual crypto commerce. Maybe banks elsewhere will have to be weakened before they let up here.

[Kazimir]

quoting a UK service is a moot point. UK banks have for years offered fast payment services. moving funds from one bank account to another has never been a problem for hobby amounts (under £10k) between english banks..

what bitcoin solves is this:
international movements instantly
no chargebacks
no requirement of central storage providers (banks)
no risk of third parties taxing you without consent
no risk of bank insolvency /bailouts
store as much as you want without question
transfer  as much as you want without question
no need for account application forms, id or being declined an account

"give a homeless man a bank application form. and he will starve waiting... give the man a QR code and he can instantly earn a living"

This.

Amen, brother.

[polychenko]

Brits are spoilt compared to elsewhere when it comes to banking effectiveness. I've spent a lot of time in the US and it's like a third world country in comparison.

However it's all just tinsel layered on top of the same old crap. Once you get into international payments, which I indulge in pretty often, then it all falls apart again let alone failing to address fundamental issues.

But the main reason Bitcoin is rendered pointless here is because the banks won't give any businesses an account. There's no exchange with a UK account and the options for retail are pitiful compared to America because of that.

If I want coins in a hurry then I'm looking at a 5-10% premium for local buying services compared to exchanges or somewhere like Circle. That pure and simply doesn't add up for anyone looking to transact. Coinbase is in the UK, you just have to send money to Estonia taking days and costing money.

It's probably one of the weakest first world countries for actual crypto commerce. Maybe banks elsewhere will have to be weakened before they let up here.

Yes UK banks have some good properties. Shame (and I don't know why) the exchange market is limited. Most other developed nations it's easier.

Seems like a bit of a paradox - the more advanced the countries' infrastructure, the less need for Bitcoin. Yet countries with greatest need are less able to access/use Bitcoin. Hard to know how much investment is going in to change this - and coindesk charge for their reports on Bitcoin use etc.

quoting a UK service is a moot point. UK banks have for years offered fast payment services. moving funds from one bank account to another has never been a problem for hobby amounts (under £10k) between english banks..

what bitcoin solves is this:
international movements instantly
no chargebacks
no requirement of central storage providers (banks)
no risk of third parties taxing you without consent
no risk of bank insolvency /bailouts
store as much as you want without question
transfer  as much as you want without question
no need for account application forms, id or being declined an account

"give a homeless man a bank application form. and he will starve waiting... give the man a QR code and he can instantly earn a living"

This.

Amen, brother.

And add on here that no address needed for Bitcoin, whereas most banks addresses needed. This had been very problematic. But some of the purported positives are actually negatives for many and moot points for most normal consumers imo in the developed world.

[johnyj]

This kind of mobile payment service has already been very popular in Sweden since 2 years ago (called swish), and it has already a user base of 30% of swedish population. And you know what is the best usage of this payment? -- Purchase bitcoin  

Now it is very popular to use swish to buy bitcoin from other people on localbitcoins, because the trade is transparent and you see the name of both payer and receiver, it dramatically reduced the fraud risk

The major reason that people buying bitcoin is not for daily consumption, the payment is just one function that enable its usage when needed

[Dire]

"give a homeless man a bank application form. and he will starve waiting... give the man a QR code and he can instantly earn a living"

There's your mistake...

You can't get an application form that easily in most banks in the UK anymore. You have to have an scheduled 'interview' where they'll give you the application pack. But as a homeless man, they'll ask first if he has an address, if he says no, they'll not even give the scheduled 'interview'.

You have to have an 'interview' for the 'privilege' of giving them your money.

So backward.

[fryarminer]

Banks take your money and loan that money to others, and keep the interest they have gained on loaning your money.

Mike takes his money to the bank. Mike thinks his money is at the bank. Mike's money has been given to Mary. Mary spends Mike's money on buying a house from John. John puts Mike's money back in the bank. John thinks that this is John's money. Mary is still paying off Mike's money. The bank is keeping all the fees. The bank is hoping that Mike doesn't want to withdraw his money.

What I read between the lines of what the OP is saying, is that they are merely increasing that fabrication of fake money by inventing money in other bank accounts rather than actual transferral of physical funds.

That, incidentally, is why it doesn't work as quickly to transfer the money abroad.

When you transfer bitcoin instantly, you are transferring real bitcoin instantly.

Besides all this - I hate banks.

[Hopalong]

"give a homeless man a bank application form. and he will starve waiting... give the man a QR code and he can instantly earn a living"

There's your mistake...

You can't get an application form that easily in most banks in the UK anymore. You have to have an scheduled 'interview' where they'll give you the application pack. But as a homeless man, they'll ask first if he has an address, if he says no, they'll not even give the scheduled 'interview'.

You have to have an 'interview' for the 'privilege' of giving them your money.

So backward.

Seems weird that you have to meet anyone. I have never been into my bank. Never talked to anyone in the bank. Just loged in and set up the accounts i wanted.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

This is same shit different from type of scenario. Now they will try to pass this as the next big thing to make people ignore Bitcoin. But don't be fooled, this is the same fiat scam with a centralized system. Bitcoin does things that traditional banking system will never be able to do, thats why it has value.

[Mickeyb]

I see this move by banks as a great acclamation for what we are doing. They are afraid! Don't think that dirty banksters wouldn't rip the skin of your back and took every dollar the can.
So whay are they not doing it you might ask?

Well they have realized what Bitcoin can do so they gave their customers a little back. To bad that this little is not enough, especially now when we have realized all of the advantages of blockchain technology.

And to finish, as it was already stated, biggest problems of banks are here to stay (capital controls, separation, etc..) and they will not give these solutions to their customers as this would pretty much mean their destruction.

[Lauda]

Banks take your money and loan that money to others, and keep the interest they have gained on loaning your money.

Mike takes his money to the bank. Mike thinks his money is at the bank. Mike's money has been given to Mary. Mary spends Mike's money on buying a house from John. John puts Mike's money back in the bank. John thinks that this is John's money. Mary is still paying off Mike's money. The bank is keeping all the fees. The bank is hoping that Mike doesn't want to withdraw his money.
-snip-
Besides all this - I hate banks.

This is especially true when dealing with large amounts. Good luck trying to withdraw a few million $ in some local bank. That process would be painfully complex even though they tell you that they are keeping your money. The transfer speed of banks will never be anywhere near the transfer speed of Bitcoin. A Bitcoin transaction gets hundreds of confirmations before a Visa transactions is completely finalized (aside from moving numbers which can take 2-3 days for debit cards).
The difference is quite there, however I'm unable to find the right information to make a nice comparison.

This is same shit different from type of scenario. Now they will try to pass this as the next big thing to make people ignore Bitcoin. But don't be fooled, this is the same fiat scam with a centralized system. Bitcoin does things that traditional banking system will never be able to do, thats why it has value.

I agree. Fear is the reason for which such groups are trying to separate blockchain technology from Bitcoin. Actually it is a smart and devious move. Attacking Bitcoin directly would have caused them trouble, this way they aren't doing "anything wrong".

[Dire]

"give a homeless man a bank application form. and he will starve waiting... give the man a QR code and he can instantly earn a living"

There's your mistake...

You can't get an application form that easily in most banks in the UK anymore. You have to have an scheduled 'interview' where they'll give you the application pack. But as a homeless man, they'll ask first if he has an address, if he says no, they'll not even give the scheduled 'interview'.

You have to have an 'interview' for the 'privilege' of giving them your money.

So backward.

Seems weird that you have to meet anyone. I have never been into my bank. Never talked to anyone in the bank. Just loged in and set up the accounts i wanted.

To set up the accounts you want, you must have had to have one of two things:

1. You already had an account with the bank already, so you could just set up a new account.

or,

2. You gave proof of ID and address.

But if you are just a 'walk-in' looking to speak to a human, then it's 'interview' time... and not at that moment, but when it suits them a few days ahead.

Getting a renewal of a UK passport they also refer to as an 'interview'. An interview where you should feel grateful for receiving your basic human rights, i.e right of travel.

It never used to be this way. Only getting worse.

[WhatTheGox]

UK banks now enable, with most recent IOS apps:
- moving money from bank to bank effectively instantly (no fees).
- move money to a mobile number, using Paym, bank - > mobile number www.paym.co.uk  (I think no fees)
- enable Apple pay sync (no fees)

I find it very hard to see how bitcoin can become further adopted in the UK given these and other advances. Moloch has rumbled, Moloch has delivered. Anyone disagree?

Centralization is doomed long term, in the shorter term perhaps apple will make a few more billion sure.  Most UK banks are very interested in bitcoin tech remember.

[GODLIKE]

Don't worry: when finally the fiat currency bubble will explode, they will learn  

Well, not quite. If the dollar collapses we will have bigger problems to worry about than proving who was right.

I think it's unavoidable: there WILL be the final blow where a lot of people will get their life savings fucked up.
But it will be the last time.

Consider this: 97% of money in circulation is fake.
There's no paper whatsoever in correspondence, and no real goods in correspondence.
Banks just loaned money they don't have.
And they loaned it, instead than just GIVING it, so they could put the entire system under an artificial debt, something that really doesn't exist.
Nobody owes a fucking fuck to banks.

Anyway, when people will want to get back that money, and that will happen when Bitcoin will gain enough credibility, they will go to banks to get some money and buy Bitcoins.
When people will begin to ask more than 2% of those money... banks will collapse.
Or maybe not collapse, they will just close and say they are "missing liquidity".
Then guess what: they will print more and more money.
But as Bitcoin value will shoot through the stars, fiat currencies will hyperinflate.
A lot of people will get very, very hurt: they will have their bank accounts amounting to tens, or hundred of thousands of dollars... worthless, because nobody will want those.
BUT THESE PEOPLE WILL BE HURT FOR THE LAST TIME.
From that moment on, people will not give a damn flying fuck about dollars:
PEOPLE WILL WANT TO BE PAID IN BITCOINS FOR THE WORK THEY DO.
AND THAT WILL BE THE SEAL TO BANKS TOMBS.
People will have their savings in Bitcoins, nobody will create artificial inflation to keep enslaving them, nobody will create artificial crisis to make situations up for wars.



Btw, I read an article on NASDAQ yesterday: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-and-remittances-can-it-work-cm504136
Title: Bitcoin and remittances: can it work?

Just a consideration, we are talking BEFORE fiat currency will be completely wiped out.
I confess I never used a money transfer service, but I've seen fees swinging from 10% to 30% in articles about them.

Now think about somebody that wants to send 300$ from USA to Thailand and knows about Bitcoin:

• He just BUYS 1 BTC (conversion fee around 1%)
• Then he SEND that BTC to his family in Thailand (NO FEES)
• Then his family just SELLS that BTC and gets Thai Baht (conversion fee around 1%)

How can you compare this to a remittance service? That's a 2% fees.
Remittances will convert to just fiat-BTC exchanges, very soon. Probably in less than 2 years the large majority of them will be just an exchange, just let people time to understand that Bitcoin is not that monster they think it is.

And this is when the world is still using fiat money... while Bitcoin gains reputation, more and more shops will accept it, less and less exchange with fiat will happen.
Remittances will just disappear.

Tic tac tic tac... time passes, banks are walking zombies and that's all you need to know.

[BIT-Sharon]

Whether the bitcoins will be used continuously depends on if people choose to believe the value of Bitcoins.

[Soros Shorts]

However I'm not a fan of the mega wealthy being able to hide their wealth away -

Until you yourself become mega wealthy.