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Author Topic: Scammer tag: Nefario.  (Read 17138 times)
kjj
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October 01, 2012, 04:15:57 PM
 #21

They important point is just that: I PAYED for a service which GLBSE no longer provides.

So Nefario, when you delisted my bonds you should PAY ME the trade fee, since i have to do it all by myself from now on.

Thats doesnt fly IMO. You paid fees to acquire (or sell) the assets. That service has been delivered. Now you want another service, ie, sell your assets again, and nefario is no longer offering that service, and so wont be charging you for it. I see no reason for nefario to reimburse you.

(btw, not trying to be a spelling nazi, but its spelled "paid")

Ahh, but the problem with all of the current exchanges (including GLBSE) is that they not only provide the service of facilitating the sale, but they also act as the sole recorder of ownership.

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October 01, 2012, 04:24:27 PM
 #22

Sounds like someone has nothing better to do.

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October 01, 2012, 05:05:15 PM
 #23

Ahh, but the problem with all of the current exchanges (including GLBSE) is that they not only provide the service of facilitating the sale, but they also act as the sole recorder of ownership.

I think this is the most important thing here. Asset issuers pay 16BTC up front, and every shareholder pays trading fees, to make this service continue functioning.

GLBSE has no policy to deal with moving assets off the exchange, and it badly needs one. Imagine if NASDAQ decided to just suddenly delist Facebook with no warning: the SEC would be so far up NASDAQ's ass, they could collectively taste shoe leather.

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October 01, 2012, 05:13:16 PM
Last edit: October 01, 2012, 07:25:07 PM by Dalkore
 #24

They important point is just that: I PAYED for a service which GLBSE no longer provides.

So Nefario, when you delisted my bonds you should PAY ME the trade fee, since i have to do it all by myself from now on.

Thats doesnt fly IMO. You paid fees to acquire (or sell) the assets. That service has been delivered. Now you want another service, ie, sell your assets again, and nefario is no longer offering that service, and so wont be charging you for it. I see no reason for nefario to reimburse you.

(btw, not trying to be a spelling nazi, but its spelled "paid")

Ahh, but the problem with all of the current exchanges (including GLBSE) is that they not only provide the service of facilitating the sale, but they also act as the sole recorder of ownership.


This is an important point on being the only official holder of record.  This makes them more than "just an exchange".   On regular exchanges, you could through your broker request the actual physical certificates.


Side note:   EDITED.   Mod has said his piece and I have said mine below.  I am over it.  Guess public pressure wasn't enough.


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October 01, 2012, 05:24:21 PM
 #25

This is an important point on being the only official holder of record.  This makes them more than "just an exchange".   On regular exchanges, you could through your broker request the actual physical certificates.

In the real world, exchanges don't hold the shares, ever.  They collect and match orders, and then issue (basically) receipts.  The actual movement of shares (whether physical, or on the books of the entity) is handled by the brokerages themselves*.  At no time does the exchange ever possess the shares.

* In reality, the brokerages have delegated the settlement function to clearing houses, just like banks have delegated check clearing to the ACH system.  That detail isn't important here.

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October 01, 2012, 06:54:47 PM
 #26

I.a. On September 10 he blocked the accounts of DMC, on the grounds that gross negligence possibly amounting to fraud on the part of the asset holder was being alleged in forum threads.

I.b. Subsequently he refused to release a list of shareholders on the rationale that it'd be a breach of their privacy rights.

I.c. He also declared an audit will be held but later refused to release the name of the auditor.

I.d. The accounts were later unblocked without any audit being performed, and without any material changes in the alleged facts.
You are allowed to make mistakes in life. Nefario undid his action and everything there is good again. I consider this issue solved.

II.a. On September 25 he unlisted all of goat's assets, vaguely alleging some sort of malfeasance which was never either explained or documented --it may or may not have to do with goat's refusal to sell back some illegitimate shares created on GLBSE by an unauthorized entity which nevertheless were legitimized by Nefario's own declaration but which was quashed by the actual legitimate owners of GLBSE.

II.b. In contradiction to the claims made with I.b. above, Nefario claims to have issued the list of shareholders to Goat and that all obligations remaining exclude GLBSE, and should be handled between goat and investors alone.
That's because he was delisted. There's a huge difference in what happened in these situations.
III.a. Starting at least as early as September 10 the assets controlled by Usagi (CPA, NYAN.x, BMF) were being scrutinized publicly on this forum for gross negligence possibly amounting to fraud on the part of the asset holder, in the same manner and to an extent equal or greater to that of I.a. above.

III.b. In spite of III.a. Nefario declared Usagi as the head of the ad-hoc commission that was to review GLBSE assets for inclusion in blue/white categories.

III.c. In spite of III.a. and contrary to his conduct in I.a. and II above, Nefario failed to lock the assets controlled by Usagi.
That was Nefario's call, unless you can point to a Terms of Service/contract between the parties that says that one option needed to be done.
For these reasons Nefario should wear the scammer tag unless or until:

A. He personally refunds all investors in any and all Usagi funds to the value of their original investment or
Wait, what?
B. He personally refunds all investors in DMC and TYGR-* to the value of their original investment.
Why?

tl;dr: You can't have your cake and eat it too, and you can't run away and hide for a couple weeks until people forget. It worked with LIF.x, it worked with the numerous other scams hosted by GLBSE, but it has to end sometime.
Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

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October 01, 2012, 07:02:48 PM
 #27

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

Or we can have a public transparent management board that takes over all decision making from Nefario and serves as our equivalent to the SEC, one that smickles has a permanent position on it, and by permanent I mean we're kidnapping him and chaining him up in the basement.

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October 01, 2012, 07:24:08 PM
 #28

Thank You Maged.


Well at this point, it looks like your just need to make up your own mind on who you think is right in both these cases.   Personally I need to re-evaluate who can hold any of my assets and what investing activities I will take in the future.   


Word of advice to Nefario:  Make an official statement on both Goat's and DMC's account actions.   Those were quite severe and it looks like at least Goat's was personally motivated and that there has cost you customers and faith that you would not let your personal issues with specific people interfere with your responsibility as one of our exchange operators.  I really want you to weigh in.

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October 01, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
 #29

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

What, if any, is your ownership stake in GLBSE?

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October 01, 2012, 09:41:51 PM
 #30

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.
The question is whether any of those "poor decisions" amount to scamming. Delisting Goat's assets suddenly, with no need to do so, and betraying  the agreement with GLBSE customers to secure their ownership interests, crosses the line, IMO. Converting GLBSE's customers ownership interest into worthless claim codes, with no agreement that allowed that conversion and no attempt to minimize the collateral damage to GLBSE customers and no effort whatsoever to clean up the mess crosses the line for me.

And there is no evidence whatsoever the Nefario believes that he did anything wrong. It appears he maintains he has the right to render any such asset worthless and any ownership interest meaningless for any reason at any time and would actually do so if he felt like it.

Also, holding Goat's coins, even though there is no dispute over the ownership of those coins, for the apparent purpose of gaining leverage in the dispute over the ownership of Goat's issued assets is over the line.

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October 01, 2012, 09:57:32 PM
 #31

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

What, if any, is your ownership stake in GLBSE?

No offense, but you shouldn't really be saying that he has a conflict of interest here.

Have you ever thought of how you run a competing exchange? 

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October 01, 2012, 10:06:47 PM
 #32

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

What, if any, is your ownership stake in GLBSE?

No offense, but you shouldn't really be saying that he has a conflict of interest here.

Have you ever thought of how you run a competing exchange? 

No offense, but I am creeped out by midgets.

Anyway, MPOE-PR's conflict of interest is irrelevant.  She can't apply a scammer tag to Nefario, although I'm sure she would like to do so.  Her interest is also very clearly stated, not undisclosed.

Maged, however, has a history of arbitrary decisions that aren't informed by fact.  He's loyal, which is commendable, but biased.

Keep in mind that while this forum derives its value from content created by its users, it does not belong to the users.  The "court" is a handful (?) of admins/mods/whatever that make their decision based on what is presented, what they can mine from PMs and other sources, and their own interests.

While her method of asking Maged to declare his bias is brusque, it's to the point.  The nature of Maged's (obvious) bias is relevant in that it will determine the amount of supporting evidence is necessary to change his mind (or to convince another person or group capable of putting a scammer tag on nefario).
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October 01, 2012, 10:39:16 PM
 #33

No offense, but you shouldn't really be saying that he has a conflict of interest here.

Have you ever thought of how you run a competing exchange?  
She's advocating *for* a scammer tag. How does her running a competing exchange give her a conflict of interest?

Think of it as the difference between an advocate and a judge. A judge has a conflict of interest if she has any personal stake in the outcome. A lawyer only has a conflict of interest if she gets a benefit if the outcome is adverse to the position she's representing.

I suppose you could argue that making GLBSE look bad there could be some industry spillover that makes her exchange look bad. It seems an odd thing to be concerned about though.


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October 02, 2012, 01:17:29 AM
 #34

I suppose you could argue that making GLBSE look bad there could be some industry spillover that makes her exchange look bad. It seems an odd thing to be concerned about though.

The entire point is that the retardedness oozing out of GLBBQ is giving BTC finance a black eye, especially due to the irrational but widely held belief that the two actually have something to do with each other.

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October 02, 2012, 01:31:56 AM
 #35

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

What, if any, is your ownership stake in GLBSE?
None. In fact, I don't even currently own any asset or hold a balance at GLBSE. I do have an account, but it hasn't been used for at least 2 months except to view some information that I've needed for other investigations.
Also, holding Goat's coins, even though there is no dispute over the ownership of those coins, for the apparent purpose of gaining leverage in the dispute over the ownership of Goat's issued assets is over the line.
Agreed, and I am pursuing that at this very moment.
Maged, however, has a history of arbitrary decisions that aren't informed by fact.
I'm sorry that you think that way. I am always open to hearing people's opinions regarding a case.

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October 02, 2012, 01:42:29 AM
 #36

Just waiting for Goat's coins to be sent back to him. If that doesn't happen, despite the two emails he sent, then it is a very obvious scam: theft.

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
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October 02, 2012, 01:58:34 AM
 #37

What would be insane is if this winds up with Nefario getting a scammer tag and GLBSE losing the community's trust.

It's much too late for the later part. The former would in principle be a formality. Nefario (and to the degree it has been aiding and abetting him, GLBSE too) are the largest liability for Bitcoin right now. Noobs join, get scammed by the Global Scam Exchange, then leave. How many intelligent people and how many affluent people have we lost because this eyesore was irresponsibly allowed to continue for so long?

Ask yourself this. You discover BTC, you put some money into it, you go "invest it" and then... it's gone. And you try again. And then... it's gone. There are people who have been going through this quarterly cycle since early 2011. What fraction are they of the total people trying out this appalling scamfest that is called GLBSE and thinking they "have tried out Bitcoin"?

This association needs to be severed. In fact, it should have been severed long ago. And yes, GLBSE has scammed investors out of more money than pirateat40 did. They just were much better at the long-con.
Oh put a sock in it pornexchange.

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

What, if any, is your ownership stake in GLBSE?

No offense, but you shouldn't really be saying that he has a conflict of interest here.

Have you ever thought of how you run a competing exchange? 
Agreed. There are serious questions to be asked, but pornexchange probably isn't the one to be doing it...
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October 02, 2012, 02:22:28 AM
 #38

None. In fact, I don't even currently own any asset or hold a balance at GLBSE. I do have an account, but it hasn't been used for at least 2 months except to view some information that I've needed for other investigations.

Fair enough.

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October 02, 2012, 04:02:30 AM
 #39

Maged, however, has a history of arbitrary decisions that aren't informed by fact.
I'm sorry that you think that way. I am always open to hearing people's opinions regarding a case.

Nefario isn't a scammer. He's just made some poor decisions for GLBSE from a customer relations standpoint. You can solve this by creating competition.

"Hearing" doesn't mean acting.  You have a history of bias.  That you can't see it may actually make it prejudice.
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October 02, 2012, 04:07:56 AM
 #40

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114766.0

Put it to the vote :O
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