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Author Topic: Scammer tag: Nefario.  (Read 17126 times)
MPOE-PR
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October 01, 2012, 12:30:16 AM
 #1

I.a. On September 10 he blocked the accounts of DMC, on the grounds that gross negligence possibly amounting to fraud on the part of the asset holder was being alleged in forum threads.

I.b. Subsequently he refused to release a list of shareholders on the rationale that it'd be a breach of their privacy rights.

I.c. He also declared an audit will be held but later refused to release the name of the auditor.

I.d. The accounts were later unblocked without any audit being performed, and without any material changes in the alleged facts.



II.a. On September 25 he unlisted all of goat's assets, vaguely alleging some sort of malfeasance which was never either explained or documented --it may or may not have to do with goat's refusal to sell back some illegitimate shares created on GLBSE by an unauthorized entity which nevertheless were legitimized by Nefario's own declaration but which was quashed by the actual legitimate owners of GLBSE.

II.b. In contradiction to the claims made with I.b. above, Nefario claims to have issued the list of shareholders to Goat and that all obligations remaining exclude GLBSE, and should be handled between goat and investors alone.



III.a. Starting at least as early as September 10 the assets controlled by Usagi (CPA, NYAN.x, BMF) were being scrutinized publicly on this forum for gross negligence possibly amounting to fraud on the part of the asset holder, in the same manner and to an extent equal or greater to that of I.a. above.

III.b. In spite of III.a. Nefario declared Usagi as the head of the ad-hoc commission that was to review GLBSE assets for inclusion in blue/white categories.

III.c. In spite of III.a. and contrary to his conduct in I.a. and II above, Nefario failed to lock the assets controlled by Usagi.



For these reasons Nefario should wear the scammer tag unless or until:

A. He personally refunds all investors in any and all Usagi funds to the value of their original investment or

B. He personally refunds all investors in DMC and TYGR-* to the value of their original investment.

tl;dr: You can't have your cake and eat it too, and you can't run away and hide for a couple weeks until people forget. It worked with LIF.x, it worked with the numerous other scams hosted by GLBSE, but it has to end sometime.

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Bitcoin Oz
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October 01, 2012, 02:48:09 AM
 #2

I would feel more comfortable if the owner of a rival exchange wasnt making these allegations.

How is Nefario responsible for Usagi and Diablo.D3 ?

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October 01, 2012, 06:11:06 AM
 #3

scamming = To defraud; swindle.

scamming != A disagreement

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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October 01, 2012, 08:02:59 AM
 #4

Maybe someone should investigate why MPOE and BITVPS passthroughs have lost so much money for their investors on GLBSE too ?

Dont throw bricks in glass houses.

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October 01, 2012, 08:08:10 AM
 #5

scamming = To defraud; swindle.

scamming != A disagreement

atm goat is still waiting for his coins - if he dont get them i vote scammer.
otherwise i just vote "nefario should not run a marketplace"
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October 01, 2012, 08:17:36 AM
 #6

Got to admit there is kind of a big conflict of interest here from the accuser.

Wasn't Nefario and pretty much all these scenarios kinda mooted last time they were brought up in an official capacity.

So what is your reason to bring it up again, other than try to further tarnish the name of him and his site?

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October 01, 2012, 08:26:55 AM
 #7

atm goat is still waiting for his coins - if he dont get them i vote scammer.
otherwise i just vote "nefario should not run a marketplace"
The four issues that seem the most serious to me are:

1) Nefario seems to be holding coins that are indisputably Goat's, which he refuses to return.

2) Nefario seems to have decided for GLBSE that GLBSE has no responsibility to protect the ownership interests of GLBSE's customers. Essentially, Nefario has retroactively decided that when GLBSE delists a stock, there is no obligation whatsoever to protect the interests of asset holders. That is, Nefario decided GLBSE would fail to honor its obligations to its customers and leave them and Goat to pick up the pieces as best they can.

3) Nefario appears to have delisted Goat's assets on a whim, in response to an unrelated dispute, and without any sort of sensible decision-making process or calibrated level of response. (For example, the asset could have just been frozen.) While I don't dispute that an exchange has the right to delist assets for any reason, doing so for very bad reasons and doing so in a sudden manner that screwed over his customers is effectively scamming. Customers should have been able to rely on the exchange to continue to provide them a way to transfer their ownership interest and not to cut off this ability arbitrarily without any justification. When you buy a share on a stock exchange, part of the reason you value it is that the exchange allows you to trade it. No rational reason for this drastic action that caused harm to both Goat and his asset holders has been offered.

4) So far, there has been no explanation from Nefario for any of these actions.

If there is some justification for these actions, it has not been made public. Goat granted Nefario permission to make a public statement, so there's no privacy issue with Goat. (There might be other privacy issues though. I don't know.)

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October 01, 2012, 08:44:04 AM
 #8

atm goat is still waiting for his coins - if he dont get them i vote scammer.
otherwise i just vote "nefario should not run a marketplace"
The four issues that seem the most serious to me are:

1) Nefario seems to be holding coins that are indisputably Goat's, which he refuses to return.



As far as i know Goat is refusing to give Nefario a BTC adress because Goat feels like giving him the adresse would be like accepting his delisting.

In my opinion MPOE-PR should NOT have started this thread. This will backfire on MPOE.

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JoelKatz
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October 01, 2012, 09:48:57 AM
 #9

As far as i know Goat is refusing to give Nefario a BTC adress because Goat feels like giving him the adresse would be like accepting his delisting.
Nefario claimed that at first, so Goat gave him an address so he would have no excuse. If you look in the other thread, you can see what Goat claims Nefario's response was -- let's just say he didn't return even the amounts that are not in dispute.

calling Nefario a scammer is borderline mentally insane.
Are you saying it's not true that Nefario is holding onto funds that belong to Goat even though there is no dispute regarding those funds? If so, I'd like to know why you say that.

Also, do you have any response to the allegation that he orchestrated GLBSE's renege on its obligation to Goat's asset-holders, changing their ownership of listed assets into worthless claim codes? (Worthless because there is no known way anyone but GLBSE can redeem them, and GLBSE refuses to redeem them. So there is nothing anyone can do with them.)

What would be insane is if this winds up with Nefario getting a scammer tag and GLBSE losing the community's trust. Someone at GLBSE needs to take charge of this situation and fix it. (Assuming Goat will cooperate. If not, they have to at least try.)

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October 01, 2012, 09:55:27 AM
 #10

Based on Nefario's actions with both DMC and Goat's assets, I think maybe it it really is time for nefario to get a scammer tag.

MPOE-PR
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October 01, 2012, 10:30:08 AM
 #11

To clarify some points for the typically confused:

I. There can never be a "conflict of interest" in this matter. It makes no difference who makes the accusation. All that matters is whether the accusation is factual and has merit. You're probably thinking based on some personal experience in some domestic dispute, but that's largely irrelevant; the reason Mr. Policeman or whatever adult figure dismissed your accusations at that time was that they were based on your own testimony, not that they were improper by "conflict of interest" (a topic one'd be best advised to read up on, anyway).

II. There exists the doctrine of "duty of care", both in common and civil law systems. Read up on that (preferably in a law manual, not on wikipedia). Somebody with power has a duty to act equally to protect all those that need his protection. He can't pick and choose. The discussion here revolves around exactly that; Nefario has acted in some cases but not in all cases. This means he was either wrong to act at all, in which case he should make whole those harmed by his action, or otherwise that he was wrong to not act in the cases where he did not act, in which case he should make whole those harmed by his inaction. Tertium non datur as they say, there is absolutely no alternative here. Either one or the other must be true.

All the rest of the discussion is absolutely irrelevant, but obviously you're more than welcome to carry on with it.

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October 01, 2012, 10:40:45 AM
 #12

not your fight.

none of your business.

i could understand if Diablo opened this thread but god damn.
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October 01, 2012, 10:46:39 AM
 #13

not your fight.

none of your business.

i could understand if Diablo opened this thread but god damn.

everybody has the right to open a scam-accusation thread. and this is good Wink

i dont really like MPEX and his exchange - but this does not mean he is'nt right in this case.
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October 01, 2012, 12:49:19 PM
 #14

1 person having complete control of the exchange seems to be a problem. I am sure he is doing the best he can, but you have to understand all this be made up as he goes i'm sure. But returning goats coins is the right thing, I think he should have been given X amount of time to clear his account then be delisted. In the future I hope this is how all of it is take care of. Emotional business is bad business, and I feel this was the case here.

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October 01, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
 #15

The only thing Nefario has asked of me is a BTC address and I have sent that to him twice. I do not see what more I can do to cooperate. I am however open to productive suggestions.
I meant to resolve the issue of people who hold your delisted assets and the harm Nefario's decision to immediately delist those assets has done to them. To get back amounts that are not in dispute, there's nothing more you should have to do. If Nefario/GLBSE is holding them hostage for a better negotiating position, that warrants a scammer tag.

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October 01, 2012, 01:23:46 PM
 #16

What would be insane is if this winds up with Nefario getting a scammer tag and GLBSE losing the community's trust.

It's much too late for the later part. The former would in principle be a formality. Nefario (and to the degree it has been aiding and abetting him, GLBSE too) are the largest liability for Bitcoin right now. Noobs join, get scammed by the Global Scam Exchange, then leave. How many intelligent people and how many affluent people have we lost because this eyesore was irresponsibly allowed to continue for so long?

Ask yourself this. You discover BTC, you put some money into it, you go "invest it" and then... it's gone. And you try again. And then... it's gone. There are people who have been going through this quarterly cycle since early 2011. What fraction are they of the total people trying out this appalling scamfest that is called GLBSE and thinking they "have tried out Bitcoin"?

This association needs to be severed. In fact, it should have been severed long ago. And yes, GLBSE has scammed investors out of more money than pirateat40 did. They just were much better at the long-con.

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October 01, 2012, 01:32:26 PM
 #17

What would be insane is if this winds up with Nefario getting a scammer tag and GLBSE losing the community's trust.

It's much too late for the later part. The former would in principle be a formality. Nefario (and to the degree it has been aiding and abetting him, GLBSE too) are the largest liability for Bitcoin right now. Noobs join, get scammed by the Global Scam Exchange, then leave. How many intelligent people and how many affluent people have we lost because this eyesore was irresponsibly allowed to continue for so long?

Ask yourself this. You discover BTC, you put some money into it, you go "invest it" and then... it's gone. And you try again. And then... it's gone. There are people who have been going through this quarterly cycle since early 2011. What fraction are they of the total people trying out this appalling scamfest that is called GLBSE and thinking they "have tried out Bitcoin"?

This association needs to be severed. In fact, it should have been severed long ago. And yes, GLBSE has scammed investors out of more money than pirateat40 did. They just were much better at the long-con.

GLBSE itself doesnt hold many bitcoins since asset issuers withdraw them for their business.

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October 01, 2012, 01:38:38 PM
 #18

I am open to cooperating but I will not accept GLBSE codes. At this time GLBSE is demanding that I do so and is recommending group legal action against me by people who hold the codes if I refuse.

I guess what more can or should I do than just say that this code system is not acceptable and we need to find a different path? I would be okay if the assets were just relisted on GLBSE. I have stated this before.
At this point, largely hearing only your side of the story, it sounds like you are trying to resolve the issue and they are holding undisputed amounts hostage while blaming you for their bad decisions. If I were in your shoes, I would not accept the GLBSE codes either without some plan for how to handle duplicate or invalid codes and some way to communicate a redemption timeframe to code holders. Or some comparable solution -- maybe GLBSE knows some clever way the codes are supposed to work that we can't think of, but they aren't telling.

I don't understand where GLBSE thinks they get the authority to issue these codes without negotiating a delisting procedure with you. And by failing to even try to do that, they've seriously betrayed their customers who now have a worthless code, with no known redemption scheme, instead of an ownership interest in an asset.

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October 01, 2012, 02:25:38 PM
 #19

I hold some (a small amount) of the delisted assets.

I do not accept the GLBSE codes, but i feel that i have nowhere to turn.
How can i be sure that noone else has my code? And how can i know Goat has my code?

I trusted GLBSE - that was my misstake.

I entered into a contract with goat, using GLBSE as a middle man.

I PAYED GLBSE for carrying out my transactions with goat, and i was under the impression that GLBSE would continue to serve as a middle man.
If it would have been a deal with just Goat, we wouldnt have had to pay you.


They important point is just that: I PAYED for a service which GLBSE no longer provides.

So Nefario, when you delisted my bonds you should PAY ME the trade fee, since i have to do it all by myself from now on.



Is GLBSE a Scam, in regards to me?
- A serious venture doesnt drop customers when they stop profiting from them. Is it a scan when GLBSE takes money for trading assets and then withdraws the service? (from a select set of users)

Should Nefario be able to delist assests without being a scammer? YES, but obviously he doesnt

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October 01, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
 #20

They important point is just that: I PAYED for a service which GLBSE no longer provides.

So Nefario, when you delisted my bonds you should PAY ME the trade fee, since i have to do it all by myself from now on.

Thats doesnt fly IMO. You paid fees to acquire (or sell) the assets. That service has been delivered. Now you want another service, ie, sell your assets again, and nefario is no longer offering that service, and so wont be charging you for it. I see no reason for nefario to reimburse you.

(btw, not trying to be a spelling nazi, but its spelled "paid")
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