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Author Topic: What are the chances Bfl. Basic. Avalon. Etc use the same gear?  (Read 3220 times)
Inaba
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October 05, 2012, 10:36:50 PM
 #21

Quickly?  We've been working on it for months...  I'd have to look at the exact date but I want to say we started around March or April.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin Core, but full nodes are more resource-heavy, and they must do a lengthy initial syncing process. As a result, lightweight clients with somewhat less security are commonly used.
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October 06, 2012, 02:44:01 AM
 #22

Unfortunately, there is basically one way to make an ASIC.  It needs x amount of transistors and registerable cache in a certain ratio to run bitcoin operations a certain way and certain power levels obtain certain acceptable or unacceptable heat dissipations.  If you add double the memory that you need to run bitcoin operations, that just means you wasted money in the design so they're all actually going to be structured extremely similarly.  They obviously didn't invent a new way to actually build the chips' internals themselves, that's up to the Asian factories, so they're all just reinventing the wheel exactly the same way separate from each other.

This isn't like making an airplane where one guy does 2 wings and a propeller and the other does a jet engine.  It's more like making ice cubes, lol.  You hold water in something and drop it below 32F or you don't end up with ice Tongue
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October 07, 2012, 02:34:27 PM
 #23

I agree with the OP, and i was thinking about this for some time. Suddenly tons of different ASIC producers appeared, they all estimate their product to be delivered for november/december and they all estimate their product to be similar in Gh/s. Hell, BFL even changed the hashing of the single from 40 to 60gh/s, wich is exactly the same of the Avalon ASIC.

Since making an ASIC involve designing the chip, investing a lot of money and then actually producing the masks and then the chips, wich take a lot of time, it's very weird that everything is so similar and comes at november/december  Smiley

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October 07, 2012, 03:37:09 PM
 #24

I agree with the OP, and i was thinking about this for some time. Suddenly tons of different ASIC producers appeared, they all estimate their product to be delivered for november/december and they all estimate their product to be similar in Gh/s. Hell, BFL even changed the hashing of the single from 40 to 60gh/s, wich is exactly the same of the Avalon ASIC.

Since making an ASIC involve designing the chip, investing a lot of money and then actually producing the masks and then the chips, wich take a lot of time, it's very weird that everything is so similar and comes at november/december  Smiley

Typically the ASIC company you work with helps with design and they handle making and verifying masks and chip production obviously. Most of the companies are obviously based in Asia and have many professionals that have an experts knowledge in ASIC design and production. And from what I have seen these ASIC company's only really make a lot of money if these chips are successful, because it costs them very little to create them after the masks are made. So it is in their interest to produce a great, fully working chip as well.
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October 08, 2012, 04:31:03 AM
Last edit: October 22, 2012, 05:02:10 AM by scrybe
 #25

Unfortunately, there is basically one way to make an ASIC.  It needs x amount of transistors and registerable cache in a certain ratio to run bitcoin operations a certain way and certain power levels obtain certain acceptable or unacceptable heat dissipations.  If you add double the memory that you need to run bitcoin operations, that just means you wasted money in the design so they're all actually going to be structured extremely similarly.  They obviously didn't invent a new way to actually build the chips' internals themselves, that's up to the Asian factories, so they're all just reinventing the wheel exactly the same way separate from each other.

This isn't like making an airplane where one guy does 2 wings and a propeller and the other does a jet engine.  It's more like making ice cubes, lol.  You hold water in something and drop it below 32F or you don't end up with ice Tongue

What? 1 way to make ASIC? Have you SEEN how many bitstream variations have come out? Even at the most basic level you have the decision between laying down a sea of hashes or a few pipelines per chip. Then you look at the various processes available. Is this a FPGA hardcopy which only really has 1 customer mask added to a standard FPGA-like common set of base layers? Is it a full-custom ASIC laid down transistor by transistor by hand? By algo? By using an HDL? Now take a couple dozen possible optimizations for performance, effiency, OR die size, and you have a few thousand different combinations that could be produced today.

It Is a lot more like making an airplane than you seem to realize, or at least like producing an engine, be it finely tuned, or a big lumbering diesel.

There have been some really good technical mudslinging threads about what constitutes a true full custom ASIC, but there is no question that more than one solution is really being produced. The chances of them all coming out if the same factory in China is not even remotely likely.

OTOH, the chances that there will be at least 2 ASIC options that have the same chip are nearly 100%. I've seen at least one reference to a design being shared, but I'm mobile so I don't have a link handy.

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October 17, 2012, 10:15:21 PM
 #26

There have been some really good technical mudslinging threads about what constitutes a true full custom ASIC, but there is no question that more than one solution is really being produced. The chances of them all coming out if the same factory in China is not even remotely likely.

I think confusion comes from confusing chip etching and assembly.  Quite possible chips are etched in same facility, perhaps even same wafers.  Not sure if China includes other China (Taiwan) but is possible.

As for assemble units for sale, is very unlikely that same facility is making BFL, etc. boards.  Many PCB assembly in China, Taiwan, Viet Nam, USA, everywhere.  Not so many chip fabs.

Relationships much easier to establish with PCB assembly.  Send tech packs, request quotes and samples, test, good going.  Chip etching is much more expensive, so most relationships with intermediary trusted by fab to verify chip design so not to waste production run or fab time.
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October 17, 2012, 10:48:29 PM
 #27

What is an IP chip? I feel stupid for asking, but google isn't being terribly helpful.

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