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Author Topic: Is Ether in unlimited supply?  (Read 8416 times)
dinofelis
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April 29, 2017, 05:09:25 AM
 #21

Uh, wat? No hard cap is terrible for everything.

as a store of value it's more than perfect. as long as enough people want in the only way is up.

Well, I'm not sure.  That's not rhetoric to say "I'm convinced of the opposite".  It is a true statement: I don't know.

But I have my doubt about the validity of the rebuttal on "deflationary spiral".  In the bitcoin wiki, this is waved away with the following argument:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral

"Everything is the opposite of the popular fractional reserve banking system (because Bitcoin isn't a debt but an asset). Bitcoins only deflate in value when the Bitcoin Economy is growing. "

In other words, this took the stance that bitcoin was mainly a currency, and that its value increased because of Fisher's formula: people were buying more stuff with it, the demand for bitcoin, in order to buy more stuff with it, increased, and that increases the price of bitcoin (decreases the price of stuff as measured in bitcoin).  In other words, that bitcoin's price was backed by the "economy" that could be bought with it as a currency, which is the usual backing of a normal currency.

But this is clearly NOT what is happening.  Bitcoin's price is not rising because of the rising demand for it to buy stuff on the internet.  Bitcoin's price is totally determined by traders wanting to see it as a speculative asset, which is the argument of a deflationary spiral, that if people notice that their "currency" is gaining more value by just HODLing it, they would be crazy to spend it.  So they don't use it as a currency (they use a substitute, here, fiat, for that).  Of course, you can spend it, if you take into account a *KNOWN* deflation (or inflation): you correct for the prices and the time lapses.  But nobody knows the deflation of bitcoin (the value growth of bitcoin).  And very few people spend it as a currency.

So bitcoin becomes essentially a hoarded asset, and the amount of bitcoin in circulation is small as compared to the amount of hoarded stuff, giving a false impression of a huge market cap.  This is fine and dandy as long as the price is rising, which will be the case as long as *new capital* (mainly new users) are flowing in, because the price is rising.  However, at a certain point, this influx in capital will dry up: there is not an unlimited amount of capital outside, available to flow into this ; at a certain point, the influx in capital needed to sustain a rise, larger than most ROI in the rest of the economy, becomes larger than what is available.  So the rise cools down to less than spectacular deflation.  What happens then ?

People thinking they are sitting on a trillion $ worth of coins cashing out ?  The market cap is simply not representing the stored value, but only the size of the coin pool, times the *last* gains, when there was only a small amount of coins in true circulation, all the rest hodled.

The question I don't know how to answer, is: can such a system potentially be maintained at that high level without extra growth, or will it necessarily crash down when people don't see growth any more, and want to cash out ?
Herbert2020
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April 29, 2017, 05:50:23 AM
Last edit: April 29, 2017, 06:14:52 AM by Herbert2020
 #22

But this is clearly NOT what is happening.  Bitcoin's price is not rising because of the rising demand for it to buy stuff on the internet. 

i don't know if you are joking or what but this is not 100% correct. bitcoin demand is rising, and this demand is in very different forms.
yes most of it is in form of traders accumulating bitcoin, knowing it is limited supply and price will rise and they want a big ass profit in a couple of years from now when price is five digits!
but a big part of it is also because many are seeing bitcoin as a decentralized cryptocurrency that nobody can control. they get a good level of privacy and reaching anonymity with bitcoin is also a possibility. so they use it also as a currency.

and this:
Quote
And very few people spend it as a currency.
is nothing more than your personal guess!
there is no easy way of proving this but we can see the different merchants that start accepting bitcoin every day, we can see the volume that is going in and out of a payment processor like bitpay (which has been growing with a fast speed each year by the way). we can also see countries like Japan adopting bitcoin as currency and other countries talking about it.

i will add the bitpay charts here if i can find any updated version of it for 2017.

EDIT:
and that is just Bitpay (a third party bitcoin payment processor working with a small portion of all bitcoin accepting services) and in 2016 their numbers have doubled and it continues growing processing 200,000+ transactions per month.
now consider all the other smaller and big services accepting bitcoin "directly". and this is the demand that i was talking about and it is growing.

Link in case it doesn't show up for some weird reason: https://i.imgur.com/MCVctOP.png


it is funny a year has passed and ether has still not made up its mind about its unlimited supply. LOL

Weak hands have been complaining about missing out ever since bitcoin was $1 and never buy the dip.
Whales are those who keep buying the dip.
cryptonia
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April 29, 2017, 05:52:59 AM
 #23

Was it Ethereum or Monero who justified some inflation because each year some will get lost. For example people will die and no one will know their public key...etc
dinofelis
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April 29, 2017, 07:23:10 AM
 #24

Quote
And very few people spend it as a currency.
is nothing more than your personal guess!
there is no easy way of proving this but we can see the different merchants that start accepting bitcoin every day, we can see the volume that is going in and out of a payment processor like bitpay (which has been growing with a fast speed each year by the way). we can also see countries like Japan adopting bitcoin as currency and other countries talking about it.

Yes, this is an (educated?) guess of mine.  It was exactly bitpay's old charts that made me believe that at least until 2016, there wasn't much volume in bitcoin as a payment system.  Of course, I cannot really know what is the true volume of bitcoin for payments, but I know that all the volume on exchanges is mostly NOT for payments.  And I remember that the 2016 charts of bitpay indicated a minuscule volume as compared to the volume on exchanges.  Of course, I don't know how many people pay for stuff without going through such a payment processor.

https://qz.com/931810/cheapair-and-bitpay-data-show-rising-bitcoin-btc-payment-volumes/

In December 2016, there was a total volume of $169 million processed by bitpay.

That is less in a month than the DAILY volume of bitcoin on exchanges.  That puts bitpay at 3% of the bitcoin volume, and, if we follow Fisher's formula, the market cap sustained by "currency" of bitcoin, at 3% of its announced trading market cap.  Now, let us assume that bitpay is only capturing one half of the bitcoin commercial volume, we are at 6%.   Add dark markets, its principal commercial application, and we are maybe at 15%, but that is a generous guess.


N-rG
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May 01, 2017, 08:00:35 AM
 #25

Never discuss with alt trolls who FUD BTC and call it kinda dead
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