Micro Payments Dead?

[JPage]

I cannot see how this is a problem now... Yesterday I have made 3 transactions and the average fee for the 3 transactions was 0,07915 USD. Where are you getting the 0.30 cents from?

I did not even have to wait a long time for the confirmations.. {within 30 minutes there were 12 confirmations}

That address is also full of dust payments from faucets I experimented with, so it should have been expensive, but it was not. The only thing periodically pushing the fee's up, is

the people doing these fake stress tests to force people to pay higher fees. This is still way cheaper than any other bank I have dealt with or credit card fees. 

If this is a real issue for you.... use Xapo. {zero fees}

your 8 cents was during a network of light congestion. When things get busy, you need to increase the fee to get the confirmation.  Besides, micro payments can survive with even $.08 fee. Micro payments really need a .01 fee or even less. Yesterday, the network wasn't full of crap from load testers. So your calculation is only good for 'yesterday' but not good for the future.

[coinableS]

I've thought the same with the blockchain debate and the rise in fees. It made me angry because bitcoin was supposed to allow micropayments online, and now it won't be possible. After a while I became comfortable with bitcoin becoming the "store of value coin" the gold-of-coins and allow an alt-coin like litecoin to handle the micro payments world, that wouldn't be so bad I suppose.

[bryant.coleman]

Micro payments could be another coin, a dual coin solution, Bitcoin for larger purchases or Litecoin for quicker smaller purchases, the real thing needed is a zero confirmation that merchants will be okay with.

I agree with having another crypto-coin for the purpose of micro-payments. But Litecoin has to compete with the other cryptos out there (such as Namecoin, Ripple, Terracoin, Quarkcoin.etc) for that place. There is no no.2 crypto by default. Personally, I would prefer Namecoin over Litecoin, as it is less susceptible to manipulation in the exchange rates.

[bitcoinmasterlord]

micro payments? cmon give me a break this is true degennery

What are you saying? Bitcoin was invented to be a money you can use without having to trust banks. Now you start to say it is a money that you can use for small amounts similar to 0.01 USD? That would be no normal money anymore. And would contradict what satoshi wanted to create.

I know there are some guys that want to push their own project. Micropayments not on bitcoin but on their own project. Unfortunately these persons are bitcoin core developers too. And... of course, they don't want the blocksize limit to be raised.

That is simply stupid. It is like politicians that decide about bank regulations while they are ceo of these banks on the same time.

Guess we have our first cases of power misuse and corruption on bitcoin core developer level.

[bitcoinmasterlord]

I cannot see how this is a problem now... Yesterday I have made 3 transactions and the average fee for the 3 transactions was 0,07915 USD. Where are you getting the 0.30 cents from?

I did not even have to wait a long time for the confirmations.. {within 30 minutes there were 12 confirmations}

That address is also full of dust payments from faucets I experimented with, so it should have been expensive, but it was not. The only thing periodically pushing the fee's up, is

the people doing these fake stress tests to force people to pay higher fees. This is still way cheaper than any other bank I have dealt with or credit card fees. 

If this is a real issue for you.... use Xapo. {zero fees}

I think it is still a problem. Compared with credit cards it is a small fee. But bitcoin should be compared to normal fiat too. We want bitcoin to be adopted. It should be used widely and everywhere. Only then the amount of fees needed to support miners will be created. And that means it has to be possible to spend really small units of worth, like 0.01 USD. It would not work when you have to pay a 0.05 USD fee on top.

That reminds me of paypal. At least not as expensive.

[Herbert2020]

there are some wallet that dont charge fees..
but takes time to confirm..
it up to you if you want fast transaction pay fee..
or if you want to save you can try some web wallet

wallets does not charge fees, they suggest the fee amount suitable for your transaction size to get high priority. and some of them enforce it but all of them can be over-ride to change the fee to any amount you want.

[countryfree]

I see as micro payments anything below one $, and I'd be happy to see them disappear. Come on, the blockchain will keep those transactions forever, and there's no need for this. I'd be a miner, I would simply ignore all smallish transactions, and I believe this is what they will all do, unless block size is raised.

[coinableS]

I see as micro payments anything below one $, and I'd be happy to see them disappear. Come on, the blockchain will keep those transactions forever, and there's no need for this. I'd be a miner, I would simply ignore all smallish transactions, and I believe this is what they will all do, unless block size is raised.

If someone wants to spend a 0.0001 tx fee on a 0.00001 transaction they should be allowed to. But since that is not prudent to spend more on a tx fee than the transaction itself an altcoin could be the better solution for a micro transaction. If you want to send 10 cents use doge coin or something and that can later be converted into the all mighty bitcoin.

[ashour]

I see as micro payments anything below one $, and I'd be happy to see them disappear. Come on, the blockchain will keep those transactions forever, and there's no need for this. I'd be a miner, I would simply ignore all smallish transactions, and I believe this is what they will all do, unless block size is raised.

So what is the solution to the micro transactions then? We can't just ignore it and there obviously is a demand for online tipping, it is pretty common now.

There are already services like Coinjar and Changetip who focus on the micropayment space. I think that with sidechains we will see innovations in  the micropayment industry.

[manselr]

Micropayments don't necessary need to be finished because of the blocksize debate. I think they will still remain in one way or another, it's one of the killer selling points of Bitcoin. If the fees are too it will fail.

[ashour]

I see as micro payments anything below one $, and I'd be happy to see them disappear. Come on, the blockchain will keep those transactions forever, and there's no need for this. I'd be a miner, I would simply ignore all smallish transactions, and I believe this is what they will all do, unless block size is raised.

So what is the solution to the micro transactions then? We can't just ignore it and there obviously is a demand for online tipping, it is pretty common now.

There are already services like Coinjar and Changetip who focus on the micropayment space. I think that with sidechains we will see innovations in  the micropayment industry.

Sidechains are just altcoins that don't exist yet, don't let the fancy name fool you. Why build yet another coin that would still have to be later converted into bitcoin than rather use one of the already established altcoins.

Well those sidechains altcoins would be backed by the bitcoin blockchain, they would be more trusted than alternative coins.

[tss]

I cannot see how this is a problem now... Yesterday I have made 3 transactions and the average fee for the 3 transactions was 0,07915 USD. Where are you getting the 0.30 cents from?

I did not even have to wait a long time for the confirmations.. {within 30 minutes there were 12 confirmations}

That address is also full of dust payments from faucets I experimented with, so it should have been expensive, but it was not. The only thing periodically pushing the fee's up, is

the people doing these fake stress tests to force people to pay higher fees. This is still way cheaper than any other bank I have dealt with or credit card fees.  

If this is a real issue for you.... use Xapo. {zero fees}

your 8 cents was during a network of light congestion. When things get busy, you need to increase the fee to get the confirmation.  Besides, micro payments can survive with even $.08 fee. Micro payments really need a .01 fee or even less. Yesterday, the network wasn't full of crap from load testers. So your calculation is only good for 'yesterday' but not good for the future.

its ok.. his whole post was bullshit anyways so he can increase his post count with his sig campaign.  i dont think we had 12 blocks in 30 minutes that day.

bullshit posters posting bullshit things.  lets all get on a bandwagon.  there are currently 3 of them leaving the station so pick one and stick with it.

[monsanto]

One of the very big hopes for Bitcoin was the notion of enabling 'micropayments'.  Today, one can't practically pay 50 cents with Visa because there is a 30 cent swipe fee and a percent fee on top. 

However, now with the stalwarts of 1MB blocksize limits, it looks like we are going to have to start setting our miners fees to (remarkably enough): 30 cents. 

Does this spell an end to micropayments? 

What is your definition of micropayments? Obviously there has to be some limit, some floor, or people could spam any blockchain to death. How small an amount do you think it should be reasonable to send?

Maybe there could be a system where all the really, really small payments get put in the same area of a coins blockchain, and this area is periodically pruned, so it can never get too big. This area of a block could be reserved for very small transactions so that if someone tries to spam it, it would not affect other transactions. Sort of a tiered system.

[tss]

One of the very big hopes for Bitcoin was the notion of enabling 'micropayments'.  Today, one can't practically pay 50 cents with Visa because there is a 30 cent swipe fee and a percent fee on top. 

However, now with the stalwarts of 1MB blocksize limits, it looks like we are going to have to start setting our miners fees to (remarkably enough): 30 cents. 

Does this spell an end to micropayments? 

What is your definition of micropayments? Obviously there has to be some limit, some floor, or people could spam any blockchain to death. How small an amount do you think it should be reasonable to send?

Maybe there could be a system where all the really, really small payments get put in the same area of a coins blockchain, and this area is periodically pruned, so it can never get too big. This area of a block could be reserved for very small transactions so that if someone tries to spam it, it would not affect other transactions. Sort of a tiered system.

sounds like this system you desire already exists and functions how you describe in the current use of the blockchain.  this area where small payments and free spam is called the mempool. if you pay little or no fee then you must wait in line with all of the other micropayments or spam transactions until there is room for you to be confirmed.  if you think your transaction is priority then you pay a fee. anyways you can still send older coins or higher amounts free as both dont need any fees.

[monsanto]

One of the very big hopes for Bitcoin was the notion of enabling 'micropayments'.  Today, one can't practically pay 50 cents with Visa because there is a 30 cent swipe fee and a percent fee on top. 

However, now with the stalwarts of 1MB blocksize limits, it looks like we are going to have to start setting our miners fees to (remarkably enough): 30 cents. 

Does this spell an end to micropayments? 

What is your definition of micropayments? Obviously there has to be some limit, some floor, or people could spam any blockchain to death. How small an amount do you think it should be reasonable to send?

Maybe there could be a system where all the really, really small payments get put in the same area of a coins blockchain, and this area is periodically pruned, so it can never get too big. This area of a block could be reserved for very small transactions so that if someone tries to spam it, it would not affect other transactions. Sort of a tiered system.

sounds like this system you desire already exists and functions how you describe in the current use of the blockchain.  this area where small payments and free spam is called the mempool. if you pay little or no fee then you must wait in line with all of the other micropayments or spam transactions until there is room for you to be confirmed.  if you think your transaction is priority then you pay a fee. anyways you can still send older coins or higher amounts free as both dont need any fees.

Lol, yes I guess you have a good point there! It basically operates the way I was thinking already due to fees. Although there is no auto-blockchain pruning system. I'm not sure how much of the current block size debate is due to the needs of the system to deal with individual block sizes during mining, or concerns over the growth of the overall blockchain due to the addition of larger blocks.