Is Bitcointalk a place of free and open discussion?

[smoothie]

Currently (as of right now) XT is Bitcoin as it operates seamlessly with the bitcoin network.

No, the XT is pretending to be Bitcoin, but it's not.

It is extending the current protocol in its consensus-enforcing part. Because it says: after 2016-something if 75% miners have done something, we can produce larger blocks. It implicitly states it can do something the current protocol doesn't allow, under certain conditions that you call 'consensus' (which is far from the real consensus). It can disguise as an ordinary client in the meantime, doesn't matter, it won't make it Bitcoin.

It's not like protocol will be changed only if 75% miners agree, it's already changed by adding this very condition. Protocol amounts to all consensus-critical rules, implicit and explicit, that are written in the software.

Is this a case of selective censorship?

You need to learn what censorship means.
I'll quote your beloved opponent in case you didn't read his reply to you:

Being moderated on a private forum is NOTHING like being suppressed by censorship.  What a nasty, horrible lie!  Why don't you just track down some Chinese dissidents and shit on their faces?  Either way the [trivializing, disrespectful] substance is the same.  

What you gloss over as "imprecise use of the word censorship" isn't accidental or mere ignorance.  It is a calculated attack on the mods' integrity (IE shaming), and a purposeful re-framing so as to paint them as victimizing brave supporters of free speech ("zomg it's a human right!!!").

As to their (and now your) "concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating" let us note that alt-coin discussion is explicitly subject to certain time/place restrictions by the forum/sub rules.  If you break those rules, expect to be moderated.  If you persist despite moderation, expect to be banned.  Duh!  This isn't hard, except when thou doth protest too much.

It is not honest to, by visitation and participation, implicitly agree with the existing moderation rules and their arbiters (the mods), but then act SHOCKED when playing the Censorship Card fails to win a dispute over/with them.

lol how is it pretending to be Bitcoin?

Does xt pretend to send transactions on the network seamlessly now or does it actually do it?

Selective censorship is where the claim is xt is an alt coin but side chains also being an alt coin are allowed to be discussed.

[TECSHARE]

If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

There is avast difference to discussing XT vs "selling" XT to users.

Kind of hard to discuss it if reddit moderators keep deleting posts/threads related to XT and moving XT discussion to alt coin section of this forum.

People can only switch if there is enough discussion about XT.

They won't just wake up one day and go "i'll with go to xtnodes.com and download the latest client" without anyone previously mentioning it on a forum etc.

Ultimately users will choose what they want in the end.

All of this back and forth is drama and kiddy BS. Pick a stance and stick to it without the ad hominem or personal attacks (<----directed at those going out of their way to bash others).

What is stopping you from making a Reddit for XT? What ENTITLES XT to a right to be in the forum main sections? Like I said earlier, this is nothing more than an altcoin namejacking Bitcoin. Infinitecoin had the SAME issue with "Infinitecoin 2" which was later renamed Colossuscoin after public protest. The developer of that coin tried to use many of the same arguments I see here for XT. This is a game they have played before in the altcoin scene, now they have just decided to use this strategy on a bigger target. This whole idea is carefully crafted to leverage peoples ignorance of the protocol to divide the community in the hopes they will find enough ignorant people to sign on with them thinking they are supporting something genuine. Don't be fooled, this is an attack on Bitcoin.

The name of the game is a death of a thousand cuts. If it works once they will do it over and over and over until the community is completely divided and ripping the infrastructure apart. Real distributed consensus comes down to who has the better code, not if they have access to all the main information outlets. If XT is really better, it doesn't matter one bit where people post about it. THAT is how real open source works, not these namejacking political semantics games we are seeing used to try to leverage the launch of XT.

As far as the bolded part, you never engage in that kind of behavior now do you?

[BrianM]

If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

There is avast difference to discussing XT vs "selling" XT to users.

Kind of hard to discuss it if reddit moderators keep deleting posts/threads related to XT and moving XT discussion to alt coin section of this forum.

People can only switch if there is enough discussion about XT.

They won't just wake up one day and go "i'll with go to xtnodes.com and download the latest client" without anyone previously mentioning it on a forum etc.

Ultimately users will choose what they want in the end.

All of this back and forth is drama and kiddy BS. Pick a stance and stick to it without the ad hominem or personal attacks (<----directed at those going out of their way to bash others).

What is stopping you from making a Reddit for XT? What ENTITLES XT to a right to be in the forum main sections? Like I said earlier, this is nothing more than an altcoin namejacking Bitcoin. Infinitecoin had the SAME issue with "Infinitecoin 2" which was later renamed Colossuscoin after public protest. The developer of that coin tried to use many of the same arguments I see here for XT. This is a game they have played before in the altcoin scene, now they have just decided to use this strategy on a bigger target. This whole idea is carefully crafted to leverage peoples ignorance of the protocol to divide the community in the hopes they will find enough ignorant people to sign on with them thinking they are supporting something genuine. Don't be fooled, this is an attack on Bitcoin.

The name of the game is a death of a thousand cuts. If it works once they will do it over and over and over until the community is completely divided and ripping the infrastructure apart. Real distributed consensus comes down to who has the better code, not if they have access to all the main information outlets. If XT is really better, it doesn't matter one bit where people post about it. THAT is how real open source works, not these namejacking political semantics games we are seeing used to try to leverage the launch of XT.

As far as the bolded part, you never engage in that kind of behavior now do you?

Agree to this.

Remember Panda coin? At some point was there 3 Panda coins. The first one. Then one made to battle that scammer-pump-n-dumper who made the first one (forgot his name, think he was asian). Then a third one to replace the two previous coin. Nobody know which Panda coins they where holding or mining....... at the exchange they where called PND, PAN and PANDA.

The moral of this.... panda completly died because of this confussion. A am affraid the same could happen with bitcoin. Would proberly not be long before some make a bitcoin XT2 or Bitcoin TX. Then will the confusion be complete, nobody would know which shit coin they just bought on local bitcoins.

Namejacking, that is exactly the word I was looking for (thanks tech-guy). They should have called it LargerBlockCoin (LBC) instead, at least that would have been easy to understand.

[OmegaStarScream]

Anyone knows where we are supposed to post the BitcoinXT threads ? last time I posted on Bitcoin Discussion it got moved after couple of hours i guess and they got moved to Altcoin section however I see shitload of posts on Bitcoin discussion right now so .. what's up?
Are they censorship on Reddit only or here aswell ?

[redsn0w]

Anyone knows where we are supposed to post the BitcoinXT threads ? last time I posted on Bitcoin Discussion it got moved after couple of hours i guess and they got moved to Altcoin section however I see shitload of posts on Bitcoin discussion right now so .. what's up?
Are they censorship on Reddit only or here aswell ?

Technically it is not censorship but enforcement of internal rules /sarcasm.  I think you can discuss about BitcoinXT (only a client for the moment, like electrum etc..) in the off topic because bitcoinXT is not an altcoin.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Anyone knows where we are supposed to post the BitcoinXT threads ? last time I posted on Bitcoin Discussion it got moved after couple of hours i guess and they got moved to Altcoin section however I see shitload of posts on Bitcoin discussion right now so .. what's up?
Are they censorship on Reddit only or here aswell ?

There should be a new sub section in the forums dedicated solely to XT. Everywhere I look, there are XT threads & junk posts talking about the same stuff over & over & over again. It's littered everywhere, in nearly every section of this forum.

[Lauda]

Anyone knows where we are supposed to post the BitcoinXT threads ? last time I posted on Bitcoin Discussion it got moved after couple of hours i guess and they got moved to Altcoin section however I see shitload of posts on Bitcoin discussion right now so .. what's up?
Are they censorship on Reddit only or here aswell ?

There should be a new sub section in the forums dedicated solely to XT. Everywhere I look, there are XT threads & junk posts talking about the same stuff over & over & over again. It's littered everywhere, in nearly every section of this forum.

No, this makes it even worse. Let's keep the threads to a single section only. They are being moved, and if you start one in the altcoin section you're fine.
Also OmegaStarScream, if you have questions you can PM me if you do not want to start a thread.

[RoadTrain]

Currently (as of right now) XT is Bitcoin as it operates seamlessly with the bitcoin network.

No, the XT is pretending to be Bitcoin, but it's not.

It is extending the current protocol in its consensus-enforcing part. Because it says: after 2016-something if 75% miners have done something, we can produce larger blocks. It implicitly states it can do something the current protocol doesn't allow, under certain conditions that you call 'consensus' (which is far from the real consensus). It can disguise as an ordinary client in the meantime, doesn't matter, it won't make it Bitcoin.

It's not like protocol will be changed only if 75% miners agree, it's already changed by adding this very condition. Protocol amounts to all consensus-critical rules, implicit and explicit, that are written in the software.

lol how is it pretending to be Bitcoin?

Does xt pretend to send transactions on the network seamlessly now or does it actually do it?

What part of my reasoning didn't you understand? XT is following a protocol which is different from the current Bitcoin, yet currently it is capable of transacting on the Bitcoin blockchain. But it doesn't make it Bitcoin, as the consensus-critical part of code is changed without reaching actual consensus. When the overwhelming majority of users from different cohorts (the so-called economic majority) start running XT, only then it can be considered the new Bitcoin, not when 75% of miners are mining it. Until then, it's just pretending.

[otrkid70]

Anyone have a Solid learning link for Bitcoin XT? I have been out of the loop for a while and this is all I'm seeing lately so i would love to read a Reliable thread about it Both Pros and Cons since it seems to be such a "Hot" topic.
Thanks!

[RoadTrain]

Anyone have a Solid learning link for Bitcoin XT? I have been out of the loop for a while and this is all I'm seeing lately so i would love to read a Reliable thread about it Both Pros and Cons since it seems to be such a "Hot" topic.
Thanks!

Unfortunately, I don't think such a thread exists. Whatever I read is mostly political propaganda, while the issue is technical. If you can't handle technical debate (deep technical understanding is required), it might be better to stay away from this hot issue until the dust settles. That's my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

[otrkid70]

Anyone have a Solid learning link for Bitcoin XT? I have been out of the loop for a while and this is all I'm seeing lately so i would love to read a Reliable thread about it Both Pros and Cons since it seems to be such a "Hot" topic.
Thanks!

Unfortunately, I don't think such a thread exists. Whatever I read is mostly political propaganda, while the issue is technical. If you can't handle technical debate (deep technical understanding is required), it might be better to stay away from this hot issue until the dust settles. That's my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

That's good advice for me....I'm not a Tech guy. I seen the name of the thread and wondered why theymos was being named in the whole censorship thing and got curious.

I'll keep my eye on this thread and do some reading on Google about what the hell XT is lol

Thanks for the Info Roadtrain!

[smoothie]

If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

There is avast difference to discussing XT vs "selling" XT to users.

Kind of hard to discuss it if reddit moderators keep deleting posts/threads related to XT and moving XT discussion to alt coin section of this forum.

People can only switch if there is enough discussion about XT.

They won't just wake up one day and go "i'll with go to xtnodes.com and download the latest client" without anyone previously mentioning it on a forum etc.

Ultimately users will choose what they want in the end.

All of this back and forth is drama and kiddy BS. Pick a stance and stick to it without the ad hominem or personal attacks (<----directed at those going out of their way to bash others).

What is stopping you from making a Reddit for XT? What ENTITLES XT to a right to be in the forum main sections? Like I said earlier, this is nothing more than an altcoin namejacking Bitcoin. Infinitecoin had the SAME issue with "Infinitecoin 2" which was later renamed Colossuscoin after public protest. The developer of that coin tried to use many of the same arguments I see here for XT. This is a game they have played before in the altcoin scene, now they have just decided to use this strategy on a bigger target. This whole idea is carefully crafted to leverage peoples ignorance of the protocol to divide the community in the hopes they will find enough ignorant people to sign on with them thinking they are supporting something genuine. Don't be fooled, this is an attack on Bitcoin.

The name of the game is a death of a thousand cuts. If it works once they will do it over and over and over until the community is completely divided and ripping the infrastructure apart. Real distributed consensus comes down to who has the better code, not if they have access to all the main information outlets. If XT is really better, it doesn't matter one bit where people post about it. THAT is how real open source works, not these namejacking political semantics games we are seeing used to try to leverage the launch of XT.

As far as the bolded part, you never engage in that kind of behavior now do you?

1. I believe there is a reddit for XT already. But what entitles mods to censor discussion of XT which is directly related to bit coin? Oh right nothing. If XT is an altcoin then Core is also an altcoin as it differs from the original implementation satoshi released right? lol

2. My behavior related to this situation has been appropriate. If you want to bring up drama from years ago, go right ahead. You obviously shouldn't be the one to talk given you were removed from the default trust list on this very forum for your questionable behavior.

XT operates just like bit coin as of right now so NO it is not an alt coin.

Litecoin is an alt coin.

I guess side chains are alt coins too right? They shouldn't be discussed on reddit and are not directly related to bitcoin right? Please spare me the hypocrisy.

[smoothie]

Currently (as of right now) XT is Bitcoin as it operates seamlessly with the bitcoin network.

No, the XT is pretending to be Bitcoin, but it's not.

It is extending the current protocol in its consensus-enforcing part. Because it says: after 2016-something if 75% miners have done something, we can produce larger blocks. It implicitly states it can do something the current protocol doesn't allow, under certain conditions that you call 'consensus' (which is far from the real consensus). It can disguise as an ordinary client in the meantime, doesn't matter, it won't make it Bitcoin.

It's not like protocol will be changed only if 75% miners agree, it's already changed by adding this very condition. Protocol amounts to all consensus-critical rules, implicit and explicit, that are written in the software.

lol how is it pretending to be Bitcoin?

Does xt pretend to send transactions on the network seamlessly now or does it actually do it?

What part of my reasoning didn't you understand? XT is following a protocol which is different from the current Bitcoin, yet currently it is capable of transacting on the Bitcoin blockchain. But it doesn't make it Bitcoin, as the consensus-critical part of code is changed without reaching actual consensus. When the overwhelming majority of users from different cohorts (the so-called economic majority) start running XT, only then it can be considered the new Bitcoin, not when 75% of miners are mining it. Until then, it's just pretending.

"overwhelming majority" now that is subjective. What does that mean 99%, 82%, 93.2837493%?

Yeah if the major exchanges and miners move to XT and there is 25% not moved over then what will you say then? Would you concede that XT is the new "bitcoin"?

What percentage are you referring to?

Nodes?

Merchants?

Miners?

I mean there are too many different metrics to measure "the overwhelming majority" to accurately know that it is true based on some random % that you or any other person thinks up. So what is the difference if 75% is chosen? Is it wrong? To you yes, to some others no.

It is a difference of opinion not a difference of facts.

[RoadTrain]

What part of my reasoning didn't you understand? XT is following a protocol which is different from the current Bitcoin, yet currently it is capable of transacting on the Bitcoin blockchain. But it doesn't make it Bitcoin, as the consensus-critical part of code is changed without reaching actual consensus. When the overwhelming majority of users from different cohorts (the so-called economic majority) start running XT, only then it can be considered the new Bitcoin, not when 75% of miners are mining it. Until then, it's just pretending.

"overwhelming majority" now that is subjective. What does that mean 99%, 82%, 93.2837493%?

Yeah if the major exchanges and miners move to XT and there is 25% not moved over then what will you say then? Would you concede that XT is the new "bitcoin"?

What percentage are you referring to?

Nodes?

Merchants?

Miners?

I mean there are too many different metrics to measure "the overwhelming majority" to accurately know that it is true based on some random % that you or any other person thinks up. So what is the difference if 75% is chosen? Is it wrong? To you yes, to some others no.

It is a difference of opinion not a difference of facts.

It is subjective up to a point. The term goes from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority
What is a fact is that 75% miners do not constitute economic majority. They may or may not represent it, but themselves they are not economic majority. That's why they are reluctant to actually follow XT currently.

What is also clear is that XT doesn't have the economic majority as of now.

Personally, I would only switch when almost all relevant businesses (exchanges being the most important currently) switched. I also believe it's the best for Bitcoin to avoid any noticeable split. I bet most miners think the same.

[spjakob]

Logged in here for the first time in many months just to express what I have learnt today when I was trying to educate myself about blocksizes and bitcoinxt (on r/bitcoin):

1. (Some of) the people who are against XT is pro-censorship!

2. I can not trust this r/bitcoin for information anymore (and I'm not sure about bitcointalk anymore either)....

I really don't buy the arguments about bitcoinxt being a altcoin, and even if it is/was it's just something to big to try to silence through censorship...

A lot of people, including me are trying to understand what is going on and when "one side" use the same techniques as China uses to control their ppl, I really do not trust that  "side", although I understand most ppl, doesn't agree with Theymos actions...


I just was BANNED from r/bitcoin for mentioning bitcoinxt in a comment(!!!) and I'm quite worried what will happen here now since the same person is making the decission!.

[balu2]

I think Theymos does the correct thing. The XT stuff gets out of hand. It spreads FUD for bitcoin in massive amounts. It's annoying and causes attrition. These XT-fools claim to be a majority but are in reality just some 10% to 30% of people. I think they got their point across. Time to give them their own sub maybe? I for one am very annoyed by these discussions about XT. Will never switch and would dump on an adoption of said crap.

[iCEBREAKER]

what entitles mods to censor discussion of XT which is directly related to bit coin?

Mods are entitled to moderate.  They are also entitled to use their discretion as they see fit.

If you don't like it, you are entitled to leave their forum/sub.  The self-help remedy is to start your own (with hookers and blackjack).

You are not entitled to stay on and bitch like a young Hillary Clinton about how much you disagree, forum-lawyer their decisions, or use inflammatory, inaccurate bullet words like "censorship" in obvious social engineering attacks trying to shame them.

[spndr7]

I think Theymos does the correct thing. The XT stuff gets out of hand. It spreads FUD for bitcoin in massive amounts. It's annoying and causes attrition. These XT-fools claim to be a majority but are in reality just some 10% to 30% of people. I think they got their point across. Time to give them their own sub maybe? I for one am very annoyed by these discussions about XT. Will never switch and would dump on an adoption of said crap.

Theymos has done incorrect thing. He is afraid of the general consensus, as it may go against the privileged position he had enjoyed for so many years. I think, all the banning of opposing voices, has been done to satisfy his personal ego, as he think himself as the Sole Global moderator of the entire Bitcoin community.

[Lauda]

Theymos has done incorrect thing. He is afraid that they will fool many ignorant people with XT. I think, all the banning of opposing voices, has been done to satisfy his personal ego, as he think himself as the Sole Global moderator of the entire Bitcoin community.

FTFY. Either most of the XT followers here are not aware of these things or are being stubborn and ignorant at the same time. You have no idea how easy it is to manipulate the members of this forum. While the main story is related to the block size, this is what XT currently consists of:

• Automatic blacklisting controlled by the Tor project (AFAIK without their consent).
• Buggy block size validation.
• Lighthouse slave support.
• Incomplete/buggy double spend detection.

If this was a Hearn vs theymos thread, I'd have to question the sanity of everyone on Hearns side. Theymos did nothing wrong. This is a privately owned forum (i.e. theymos is letting you play in his backyard), and you're just lucky that some stricter person isn't calling the shots (else most XT supporters would be banned by now for constantly breaking the rules).

[RoadTrain]

I think Theymos does the correct thing. The XT stuff gets out of hand. It spreads FUD for bitcoin in massive amounts. It's annoying and causes attrition. These XT-fools claim to be a majority but are in reality just some 10% to 30% of people. I think they got their point across. Time to give them their own sub maybe? I for one am very annoyed by these discussions about XT. Will never switch and would dump on an adoption of said crap.

Theymos has done incorrect thing. He is afraid of the general consensus, [...]

In fact, he is more likely afraid of there being no consensus at all thanks to irresponsible moves by Gavin and Mike.