ASIC testing on main net is wrong, PERIOD.

[jjshabadoo]

I can't believe people are actually advocating on behalf of companies selling us hardware and directly competing with us.

This is not like nearly any other ecosystem where it makes sense to allow a company to compete with you.

THERE ARE ONLY 21 MILLION BITCOINS!!!

Whatever they mine WE never get a chance at, EVER.

It will aartificially inflate the difficulty and it WILL NOT STOP due to ongoing testing.

This community really is insane sometimes, falling for obvious scams, pre-funding vaporware, etc.

Now you think companies "deserve" to profit with your pre-ordered hardware that you funded at 0% interest ?

And artificially inflate the difficulty for the foreseeable future as they "test" these devices ?

One week of ASIC mining in the early days can be HUGE for your profit margin at lowered difficulty.

Come on people, stop and think about this for a moment. You put out your money months in advance, with limited recourse at 0% interest.

YOU DESERVE THE RIGHT TO PROFIT, NOT THE HARDWARE COMPANY!

These should be tested on testnet or testnet in a box only.

Please demand that all ASIC vendors do this.

[CoinDiver]

What if they built it into the price? What if the only way they could actually afford to develop a custom ASIC chip was with a certain period of pre-mining?

It's not like anyone is complaining that it isn't possible for them to actually build a custom ASIC chip with what they were charging...

[Unacceptable]

I won't mind if each manufacturer only puts 1 TH only at a time for testing thier units.

I would prefer they use a test box,since testnet dosen't want to be overrun to skew any testing thier doing,but who am I  

[nedbert9]

What if they built it into the price? What if the only way they could actually afford to develop a custom ASIC chip was with a certain period of pre-mining?

It's not like anyone is complaining that it isn't possible for them to actually build a custom ASIC chip with what they were charging...

Let all be clear.  Estimating current BFL units sold the profit from 30 days of sustained QC/burn-in mining would equate to 80-150 USD discount per unit.


The other ASIC vendors have claimed and will survive without profiting from main-net.  While they may perform limited testing with main-net, they will not be performing 24 hour burn-in sessions with each unit produced.


There's no excuse.  There's no good reason (other than easy money) that they would tell us they would not do this, but then change their mind and consider it an issue of little importance to the mining community.


The BFL unit you have paid for is effectively 80-150 USD more expensive than you realize.  And it's not even the best $/GH.

[jjshabadoo]

There is testnet in a box plain and simple.

Also, if it's built into the price, then everyone should have been made aware prior to pre-order.

I repeat this is NOT a normal situation.

This is direct competition for a finite resource which is nearly half gone already.

This is direct competition for a finite resource which is distributed in relation to network hashrate.

There is almost no example of a similar situation where this would be common business practice.

The manufacturer's development cost is not our problem. It's already insane that people plunked money down nearly 4 months ago as it is.

That's fine, they took that risk.

They DON'T deserve to be competed against by the same entity or entities.

It's not just BFL, I urge Avalon ASIC, Reclaimer and others to pledge the same.

bASIC has already pledge to test on testnet in a box.

ASICMINER is a mining bond and they were straight up from the beginning about their intentions and have NOT taken any orders for hardware.

[CoinDiver]

It's just not FAIR!

[crazyates]

I under stand the ethical argument about WHY you don't want companies to mine on the main net, but has anyone actually done the math on how much this is actually costing customers?


Hypothetical situation:
The date is 2013/1/1, and the network is 100TH/s.

I order a 60GH/s (or a 54GH/s, lets not play favorites ) unit on 2012/12/1, and it's expected to be delivered by 2013/1/15 (~6 weeks).

This ASIC is going to start mining eventually, whether it's by me, or the manufacturer.

60GH/s is ~0.06% of the 100TH/s network.

Lets say they mine for 24 hours, on the main net, and by the time they ship it to me, we have a new difficulty.

They're mining with 0.06% of the network for 1/14 of the difficulty period, or 7%. (I know 2016 blocks isn't going to take exactly 14 days, but shh!)

Their testing on the main net increased the network rate by 0.0042%. I hardly consider that worth whining and complaining about!

Also, by the time the next difficulty comes after I get my unit, their testing 4 weeks before has absolutely ZERO affect on the future difficulty. My mining has changed the difficulty, not theirs.

Now they do this with 100 orders (or the equivalent of 6TH/s). They mine with 6% of the network for 1/14 of the period, for an increase of 0.42% increase in difficulty. This might actually be noticeable, but still, hardly worth freaking out about.

[CoinHoarder]

I agree with OP 110%

I don't care what anyone says.

It is wrong for ASIC manufacturers to FREE ROLL with OUR MONEY with a product they would not have been able to make if it wasn't for our 100% paid in full pre-order, when test net in a box is sufficient enough for testing.

Even if it's for only 24 hours, it is unacceptable.

I will not be ordering from any ASIC manufacturer that tests on the main net, and I hope most of the community adopts this stance.

[YokoToriyama]

ASIC chips are expensive i saw hard copys going for 7k...
its only going to get worse before it gets better at least asic gives the simple man a chance

[arij]

Test net in a box seems like the best way to do ASIC testing... who is testing on main net?

[Deafboy]

There are some offers from several manufacturers... Take them and deal with consequences, or design your own chip. It's simple as that.

[Shadow383]

Test net in a box seems like the best way to do ASIC testing... who is testing on main net?

BFL. People got pissed when their "burnin" account kept popping up on eclipsemc, now inaba has control of 500Gh/s of FPGAs  

Frankly, I'll be stunned if the ASICs don't get a bit of live testing. If they tested every unit for 7 days they'd make a profit on some of the early ones without even factoring in the sale price  

[CoinHoarder]

There are some offers from several manufacturers... Take them and deal with consequences, or design your own chip. It's simple as that.

No, it is not "as simple as that".

99% of Bitcoin users do not have the kind of money to design an ASIC, so that is simply not an option.

[Shadow383]

There are some offers from several manufacturers... Take them and deal with consequences, or design your own chip. It's simple as that.

No, it is not "as simple as that".

99% of Bitcoin users do not have the kind of money to design an ASIC, so that is simply not an option.

You don't need to have that kind of money - just write some impressive numbers on a napkin and people here will throw millions of dollars at you.

[jjshabadoo]

@crazyates

I get you, but here's the point, it's not just your ASIC and since difficulty only adjust every 2016 blocks, well the effect could be lasting.

Nevermind that this testing will be ongoing, so we're talking a fairly permanent effect on the difficulty.

I see no one answered that the coins will also be gone. As a miner, you'll never be able to mine those coins.

We are all mining based on this same concept, there are 21 million coins available and nearly ten million are gone.

[jjshabadoo]

First off, you're delusional that this money will flow to the consumer.

If these companies publish the amount of coins mined and reflect it in their pricing then fine.

Also, testnet in a box is as much "real world" as the main net. It's NO different for testing purposes, thus why it was developed.

[kaerf]

I want my units tested and burned in using real world conditions before they are shipped to me so that I have a high level of confidence my units will function for the (very?) long period of time I expect to be running them.  Seven days of burn in real world mining should do it.

The BTC generated will flow to the bottom line of the companies and allow them to reduce the price of the product.  Free market competition forces them to the lowest possible competative price.

If you think they are going to make a killing and be extra profitable due to this burn in testing then invest in the companies that will be doing it.

I agree there HAS to be SOME testing on main net. you cannot sell a product that has not been tested in a real world environment. even if test net mirrors main net...it's still not exactly the same. how will the hardware react with live pools? how will it react under different load situations? etc...it'd be negligent to do zero testing on main net. Not saying they need to run each unit for hours at a time on main net, but zero testing is absolutely unacceptable.

[Bogart]

I agree with OP 110%

I don't care what anyone says.

It is wrong for ASIC manufacturers to FREE ROLL with OUR MONEY with a product they would not have been able to make if it wasn't for our 100% paid in full pre-order, when test net in a box is sufficient enough for testing.

Even if it's for only 24 hours, it is unacceptable.

I will not be ordering from any ASIC manufacturer that tests on the main net, and I hope most of the community adopts this stance.

Here here.

Imagine if someone sold you all tickets to pick berries at the best berry patch in the state, but then when berry season came around, the ticket sellers went in the first week and picked all the best easiest berries for themselves, only letting all of you ticket holders in beginning the second week to fight over the few remaining small hard-to-reach berries in the middle of briars.

[CoinHoarder]

You don't need to have that kind of money - just write some impressive numbers on a napkin and people here will throw millions of dollars at you.

I LOLed

Here here.

Imagine if someone sold you all tickets to pick berries at the best berry patch in the state, but then when berry season came around, the ticket sellers went in the first week and picked all the best easiest berries for themselves, only letting all of you ticket holders in beginning the second week to fight over the few remaining small hard-to-reach berries in the middle of briars.

+1

This is a very good analogy. I was trying to come up with one myself, but blanked.

[legolouman]

However, they are making it so anyone that invested huge amounts of money ensuring their ASICs ship first will make less money than originally planned. I find that funny, screwing the people that made their profits possible.