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Author Topic: Modifying a USB hub for extra power and "I did it!" showoff thread  (Read 6362 times)
philipma1957
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August 18, 2015, 05:39:03 PM
 #21

looks encouraging.

I would think it will be able to run 5 sticks at freq 250 easy.

 since that is about 5.5 amps for 5 sticks

if you push past freq 250 and go up to freq 300  it is about 1.5 or 1.6 amps  say 7.5 to 8 amps

Sidehack  or theRealSteve have the numbers over freq 250

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wh00per
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August 18, 2015, 05:44:38 PM
 #22

I need bigger pictures or a new set of glasses Smiley hard to say where the wires are soldered with my poor eyes Smiley

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AJRGale (OP)
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August 18, 2015, 06:28:19 PM
 #23

I need bigger pictures or a new set of glasses Smiley hard to say where the wires are soldered with my poor eyes Smiley
i shrunk them with bbcode, right click and "view image" should show the full size
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August 18, 2015, 06:32:20 PM
 #24

Just because I was asked - shouldn't take this as a guide; modifying nice hubs is structurally better, buying a hub that already does the job is more sane, and if wanting to do this right, fire up kicad/eagle/something and at least design a nice board Smiley

( click for big )

Regular USB A male connector with cable (from a cable I wasn't using - I'm drowning in the things), chopped off and stripped at one end, coming in from the left.
USB A female connector from an old, dead, power bank on the right.  If just connecting these two together, you'd just solder these from
left to right straight through.

For injecting power, solder the black (gnd), green (D+) and white (D-) wires through, and leave the red unconnected.  You can pretty much just chop it off entirely but that's a bit of a waste.  Now take your PSU, connect the PSU's 0V / 'ground' (not the chassis ground) to the black wire, and the PSU's +5V to where the red wire would have gone.  Done.  Ideally you'd check for potential differences between the two grounds instead of just blindly wiring them together, but you'd need some screwy PSU/computer for that to be terrible.

There's a few extra things on that board - quick overview of that:
Instead of dropping the USB cable's red wire entirely, I soldered it to a male header that connects to the PSU +5V at the other end.  That way I can always use it without the PSU for lower power solutions.  If you'd be inclined to do this as well, don't bridge that jumper while also feeding with the PSU.  If you do, you may have a bad time.
The PSU's +5V supply is not connected straight through - there's two test points I can stick a multimeter between to get current readings, and if for any reason I don't want to measure current, the track can again be bridged with a jumper for lower power solutions.
At the top left is a resistor that goes to a small LED to indicate power, and on the flip side of the board is an array of capacitors to help deal with initial current draw on the board's end.  Ideally these would all be close around the USB socket, but it'll do for something cobbled together.  Their leads (bent over the pads) and all the pads underneath got a good globbing of solder on there to carry the current.

philipma1957
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August 19, 2015, 10:45:27 PM
 #25

okay the y-cables are in.

so far so good they do allow me to run about 1.1 amps and freq 250 hash rate = 13.5 very few errors will post more since this has been running under 2 hours.

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AJRGale (OP)
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August 20, 2015, 04:23:34 AM
 #26

okay the y-cables are in.

so far so good they do allow me to run about 1.1 amps and freq 250 hash rate = 13.5 very few errors will post more since this has been running under 2 hours.

So the Y cable is a "Only power" and "data" plugs?
philipma1957
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August 20, 2015, 04:30:11 AM
 #27

okay the y-cables are in.

so far so good they do allow me to run about 1.1 amps and freq 250 hash rate = 13.5 very few errors will post more since this has been running under 2 hours.

So the Y cable is a "Only power" and "data" plugs?

I can test that tomorrow.

 I will lower freq to 150

 On first usb y- cable I will pull the plug that has a red tag(guessing a power only)


On the second usd  y-cable I will pull the unmarked black plug (guessing data/power cable)


The first one should not drop the usb since I am only pulling the power booster.

In theory the second one should drop the  usb.

I will photo everything tomorrow.

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AJRGale (OP)
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August 20, 2015, 04:54:14 AM
 #28

okay the y-cables are in.

so far so good they do allow me to run about 1.1 amps and freq 250 hash rate = 13.5 very few errors will post more since this has been running under 2 hours.

So the Y cable is a "Only power" and "data" plugs?

I can test that tomorrow.

 I will lower freq to 150

 On first usb y- cable I will pull the plug that has a red tag(guessing a power only)


On the second usd  y-cable I will pull the unmarked black plug (guessing data/power cable)


The first one should not drop the usb since I am only pulling the power booster.

In theory the second one should drop the  usb.

I will photo everything tomorrow.

Nice, I'll be waiting! could just do a normal thumb drive test, same results.
philipma1957
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August 20, 2015, 09:10:40 PM
 #29

okay the y-cables are in.

so far so good they do allow me to run about 1.1 amps and freq 250 hash rate = 13.5 very few errors will post more since this has been running under 2 hours.

So the Y cable is a "Only power" and "data" plugs?

I can test that tomorrow.

 I will lower freq to 150

 On first usb y- cable I will pull the plug that has a red tag(guessing a power only)


On the second usd  y-cable I will pull the unmarked black plug (guessing data/power cable)


The first one should not drop the usb since I am only pulling the power booster.

In theory the second one should drop the  usb.

I will photo everything tomorrow.

Nice, I'll be waiting! could just do a normal thumb drive test, same results.

all photos and results are here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1086011.msg12194638#msg12194638


looks like the red plug is power booster the black plug is power and data.

nice cable for around 2 dollars

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alh
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August 20, 2015, 10:09:31 PM
 #30

Here's another thought. Use the Y-cable, but connect the "Power Only" cable directly to the supply for the hub. That would take the hub traces out of the power distribution for the most part, thought it would be fairly messy cabling wise.
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August 20, 2015, 11:11:34 PM
 #31

Here's another thought. Use the Y-cable, but connect the "Power Only" cable directly to the supply for the hub. That would take the hub traces out of the power distribution for the most part, thought it would be fairly messy cabling wise.

yeah but the black data  cable carries power need to be careful.

this y cable is a simple play n plug that is letting me do freq 250 at 1.1 amps brainlessly. (good for those that are  plug n play tech level )


they are mining here but I seem to be getting some roll over from an s-3 in my friends office. so it reads well over 28-30gb

http://solo.ckpool.org/users/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje

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August 23, 2015, 06:42:32 PM
 #32

Thanks AJRGale, not sure if I'm going this route or going with the Y cables, yet.

Did you disconnect the 5V+ (or are you going to cut the wire) in the cable from the hub to computer/Pi/?, so you don't get back current?

Just noticed in the pics you posted and the pics from ebay listing, your's is missing 2 of the 3 filter capacitors, so who knows what else is missing in that hub.

Hate for you to see smoke from the computer or whatever it's hooked up to!
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August 24, 2015, 06:36:41 AM
 #33

Thanks AJRGale, not sure if I'm going this route or going with the Y cables, yet.

Did you disconnect the 5V+ (or are you going to cut the wire) in the cable from the hub to computer/Pi/?, so you don't get back current?

Just noticed in the pics you posted and the pics from ebay listing, your's is missing 2 of the 3 filter capacitors, so who knows what else is missing in that hub.

Hate for you to see smoke from the computer or whatever it's hooked up to!

if I was going to use it to power a Rpi, almost unnecessary, same if I used the same system for data and power, but if I have a PSU seperate from the system, like a laptop, I may need to chop something, i don't know. But I don't think 5V won't harm it may keep a led lit up on the system. just as long as you plug the data in 1st, then plug the PSU in, whilst its off. When every connection is secure, power on the PSU then the laptop. then when everything is evened out, plug the miners in.

If I was going to chop anything, it would be the 5V from the host, since the psu power is what is feeding the miners and the Hub chipsets.

As for the filter caps, I'd have to find some thats 5+v and about 1000nF and mount them the wrong way Wink
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September 16, 2015, 08:26:32 PM
Last edit: September 16, 2015, 08:40:22 PM by Mikestang
 #34

In terms of easy over clock :

freq 250   uses 1.1 amps  does 13.7gh   uses about .33-34 watts a gh likes a fan but can be run without the fan.  you can use this link

<snip>

freq 425  uses 2.6 amps does 23.3 gh   uses about .58 watts a gh  and must have a fan

<snip>

should let you go to 1 amp maybe 1.2 amps,  still waiting for these  to test them.

<snip>

I would think that with the y adapter this  hub can do 4 sticks at freq 250   giving you  4.4amps at 5 volts    about 22 watts for about 66gh .  comes with a 3 amp 12 volt brick which has 36 watt max  and you are pulling 22 watts.   may not be able to do this once again I have these on hand and will test once the y-adapters come.

If a usb 2.0 port only provides 0.5A how are you guys seeing 1.1 amps or 2.6 amps supplied to a single stick?  Are these all done on modified hubs?

I'm trying to wrap my limited electrical engineering neurons around what I'm going to be able to do with my 4 compacs when they show up, e.g., how far can I push them safely on an unmodified usb 2.0 hub?  So far I've gotten as far as 0.5A @ 5V = 2.5watts (theoretical) max power available to a normal usb port.  I want to run 4 sticks on one hub and know what frequency I can push them to without smoking my hub.

I'm having as much difficulty formulating my question(s) as I am in trying to understand what it is I'm questioning, ha!
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September 16, 2015, 08:43:33 PM
 #35

In terms of easy over clock :

freq 250   uses 1.1 amps  does 13.7gh   uses about .33-34 watts a gh likes a fan but can be run without the fan.  you can use this link

<snip>

freq 425  uses 2.6 amps does 23.3 gh   uses about .58 watts a gh  and must have a fan

<snip>

should let you go to 1 amp maybe 1.2 amps,  still waiting for these  to test them.

<snip>

I would think that with the y adapter this  hub can do 4 sticks at freq 250   giving you  4.4amps at 5 volts    about 22 watts for about 66gh .  comes with a 3 amp 12 volt brick which has 36 watt max  and you are pulling 22 watts.   may not be able to do this once again I have these on hand and will test once the y-adapters come.

If a usb 2.0 port only provides 0.5A how are you guys seeing 1.1 amps or 2.6 amps supplied to a single stick?  Are these all done on modified hubs?
snip

Just not all hubs are equal.  Best example is from old day's: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253749.0

Look at that thread it shows some hubs and power that they have from ac.  They very GREATLY.
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September 16, 2015, 08:54:01 PM
 #36

So can I assume that any one I see running a compac stick at more than ~8GH (source) is using a hub they modified?  Or could they be using a "beefy" usb 2.0 hub that just happens to be able to handle more current?

Since usb 3.0 can provide 0.9A at each port can I assume a usb 3.0 hub would be able to run the compac sticks at a higher frequency than a 2.0 hub?



Just not all hubs are equal.  Best example is from old day's: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253749.0

Look at that thread it shows some hubs and power that they have from ac.  They very GREATLY.
I'm not understanding the "Power from AC" column - 12V @ 5A for example, does that mean the entire hub is rated for that draw?  Each port?  What am I reading?  Cry
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September 16, 2015, 09:05:52 PM
 #37

The power going into the hub is 12V at up to 5A. This means a maximum of 60W. Derate that a bit for internal conversions, you're looking at about 50W total usable power from your ports. If your ports can safely push 1A each (fairly beefy), you can draw 5W from each port (5V times 1A) which means you could run ten sticks safely (10 x 5W = 50W) from the available power supply.

Most folks will be running beefy hubs, or using Y cables to pull power from two ports at the same time for one stick.

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September 16, 2015, 09:56:53 PM
 #38

The power going into the hub is 12V at up to 5A.
But that gets regulated internally to 5V, right?  I think that's what you wrote in response to me in your stick thread.  I guess that's one disconnect I'm struggling with.  Internal ratings, external rating, usb port ratings...  Were those numbers (12V @ 5A) determined from manufacturer literature or experimentally?  If every hub regulated voltage down internally to 5V where do the differences between hubs come into play?

Most folks will be running beefy hubs, or using Y cables to pull power from two ports at the same time for one stick.

Here's where I get lost.  What makes a hub "beefy"?  This is directly related my questioning above.

Would a single usb 3.0 port be essentially equivalent to a y cable on two 2.0 ports?
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September 16, 2015, 10:39:28 PM
 #39

The 12V, 5A is typically the electrical rating for a hub taking external power as the type of power supply that you should connect: i.e. 12V, and capable of handling at least 5A.  That doesn't mean the hub will always draw 5A, but the hub itself is designed such that it at least theoretically can - though this is often based on datasheets, rather than actual measurements (i.e. using test equipment to force a particular current draw and then see if the components get too hot / trigger an internal shutoff, etc.).

The differences between hubs is in what components they use to regulate the voltage down to 5V and how it is laid out electrically.  If you're familiar with typical small indicator LEDs, then you might consider a small 1/8th Watt resistor to 'regulate' current for an LED.  But replace that small LED with one used for lighting purposes, and that 1/8th Watt resistor will get way too hot which may change characteristics or even cause the resistor to just burn up.  So you'd have to replace it with, say, an 0.5 Watt resistor.  Or, better yet, you'll use a linear voltage regulator that can handle maybe 2A.  Better yet, a switching regulator with components that can handle 5A, etc.  It's that choice of components that determines how much current the hub itself can handle.
( The electrical layout also matters - specifically trace widths.  A very narrow trace can't handle nearly as much current as a nice wide trace or a trace that has been tinned over.  Take for example a typical bit of wire, a small bicycle bulb, and a 9V battery and you can light up that bulb no problem.  Use steel wool, on the other hand, and the steel wool will ignite, as each steel wool fiber has a very low current carrying capacity. )

So what makes a hub beefy is how much current it can handle.  Hubs slightly complicate things because the current on its input (e.g. that 5A) does not necessarily translate in how much it can handle per port.  Let's say it has 4 ports and each can handle 2A; 4*2A = 8A = exceeds what it can handle on its input.  Alternatively, say each port can only actually handle 1A, then it's all good and well that the engineers specced its design to 5A and the people slapping stickers onto the thing and putting print on the packages copy that, but as each port tops out at 1A that's a bit moot - and there's definitely no drawing 5A from a single port.
But say you need 2A and each port can only deliver 1A: that's when you can use a Y cable (or other such constructions) to basically divide the load (2A) across two ports (2A / 2 = 1A).  On a cheapo hub, that's not much of a problem - on things like a laptop, I'd be more cautious; no point in potentially 'ruining' a $500 device if you can instead mess around with a $15 one.

That's all somewhat unrelated to USB 3.0 vs 2.0.  USB 3.0 is supposed to be able to deliver up to 900mA, USB 2.0 up to 500mA .  However, a USB 2.0 hub may well be able to deliver 3A on a single port.  As long as it's a minimum of 500mA, they're okay to slap a USB 2.0 label on it.  In short, I wouldn't rely on USB 2 vs USB 3 in terms of assuming current capability, and instead look up the exact specs - specifically: How much current can it deliver on a single port, and how much current can it handle total.  The input voltage is something you can ignore in terms of the hub itself - it's only something you need to know in order to figure out what voltage rating power supply to look for / hook up.

If things are still a bit confusing, I would highly recommend sticking to some of the suggested hubs that people have already tested and are known to work well Smiley

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September 17, 2015, 12:00:15 AM
 #40

After playing with a RPI and trying to get a powered hub I can say all hubs are not equal.  Very safe thing to say.   

In a perfect world any usb 2 hub would work with RPI perfectly.  But it so very very different not all are the same.
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