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Author Topic: Solution to The Bitcoin Foundation (the announcement)  (Read 5135 times)
acoindr (OP)
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October 03, 2012, 09:40:27 PM
Last edit: October 04, 2012, 06:54:24 PM by acoindr
 #1

(moderator note: this is a discussion of Bitcoin itself not the Foundation specifically)

The announcement of the Bitcoin Foundation has shaken this community; its thread received 50 plus pages and over 13K views in about 72 hours.

The Bitcoin community recognizes there is no official leadership. That's a major strength because a leader could abuse power, or be incompetent, but also become a target for enemies, or a magnet for corruption.

While TBF can't lead by force (e.g. proprietary rights to software) it could gain leadership attributes by popular agreement and influence, which means it could inherit other leadership attributes, both good and bad.

Since Bitcoin may come to play a powerful role in society this presents cause for concern, which given the track record for mixing humans, money, power and corruption, wouldn't seem to bode well.

People on both sides of the issue highlighted valid pros and cons, but one thing that is true is you can't stop such foundations from forming. The fact Bitcoin doesn't grant anyone power means opportunity exists for anyone to pursue power for good or ill. It was partly in recognition of this that I came upon the solution to this dilemma. Bitcoin relies on the free market for self-regulation and that's where the answer lies.

You won't believe how well this works out, and also the implications. I'll give a TL;DR version, then extended view.

TL;DR

The biggest complaint/possible danger opposition to TBF express is it could become corrupted and control a very powerful market, if and when Bitcoin becomes powerful, which we all expect could happen. But that's just it. Their power would pertain to Bitcoin. Even their name pertains to it, which is one of the complaints. How much power would they have, however, if there were other cryptocurrencies just as prominent in the market? The power would be diminished, of course. There would be just as many people with different coins than whatever people believed about Bitcoin specifically. Same cryptocurrency, but entirely different coins, and system.

In response to critics supporters of TBF have said start your own foundation to compete; to which we, the opposition, reply we can't compete with the top talent already concentrated at TBF. But that answer is partly right. It's not to start another foundation; it's to compete. But we don't do it, we let another cryptocurrency do it. The free market will do the rest. If people think Bitcoin is becoming tainted with power/corruption they can vote with their feet and opt to use alternative currencies. The exchange rate of such alternative currencies should rise/fall as an indicator of approval/disapproval of what was happening with Bitcoin. Make sense? Smiley

So the solution is simply to promote at least one other cryptocurrency in the market (ideally there might be 2 for better distribution), and do it before Bitcoin gets a stronger foothold. The timing of TBF announcement is fantastic, because it leaves room in Bitcoin's life for competition to check it. And the foundation should absolutely use the name the Bitcoin Foundation, because if they don't someone else could. They can even become as corrupt as they wish, as the market will reflect that with exchange rates, heightening awareness of the corruption. The free market system checks itself remarkably well!

--------

Extended View

Almost as if the free market anticipated this issue alt-coins have already started.

After Bitcoin the one with the most traction is Litecoin. Checking this forum's alt-coin section, or rates at exchanges like btc-e.com or vircurex.com confirms that. For that reason I'm now advocating establishing Litecoin in the market alongside Bitcoin, which was created to be the "silver to Bitcoin's gold". It should be trivial for merchants, exchanges, and eWallets to add it because everything is just bits and bytes!

And the benefits to doing this are just getting started:

One of the fears voiced about TBF is it could make targeting Bitcoin users easier by the government. Gavin Andresen, being both a board member and lead Bitcoin developer, and having made Bitcoin presentation at the CIA, is fodder for conspiracy theorists whether or not any concern is warranted.

Having Litecoin in the market counters that. Litecoin, being silver, can just sit back and watch daring big brother Bitcoin go out into the world, then learn and benefit from the mistakes. Since everything is open-source any advancements for Bitcoin automatically apply to Litecoin. The same is true of legal victories for Bitcoin since they are both cryptocurrencies.

So what has happened is this "foundation" development hasn't hurt Bitcoin at all, rather it has strengthened cryptocurrencies overall.

The base has also been expanded in two key ways:

-Growth of market
-Growth of opportunity

There is already a fledgling Litecoin community forming, including its own forum and LTC businesses like Litecoin Dice which mirror Bitcoin successes. That's growth of market.

With higher LTC market prominence comes increased opportunities including speculation/arbitrage of exchange rates between currencies, which brings up an interesting idea...

An Unexpected Development

As I pondered the implications of all this I realized this also solves the 51% attack.

Most everyone is aware of the dreaded 51% attack vulnerability cryptocurrencies share. Until network hash rates are believed beyond challenge such attack possibility lingers. Unfortunately, sufficiently high hash rates only begin once the currency is successful enough to be a threat.

However, I believe this no longer an issue. The problem posed by a 51% attack is not one of network damage, it's one of confidence damage. If people remain fearful of an attack they understandably become hesitant to use the currency. But the issue of confidence comes into play another way. Nothing backs cryptocurrencies, famously. They gain or lose value and acceptance based on how they are perceived. As I've illustrated it's easy for alternative cryptocurrencies to challenge each other, and no one knows what the market will come up with next. Since it's just as easy for merchants and everyone else to accept one form or another of these all electronic currencies and switch between them, any one could rise or fall at any time.

What I think this means is cryptocurrencies should be used transactionally, rather than as primary stores of value. I see a cryptocurrency version of xe.com showing all alt-coins values relative to gold (or USD to start). Exchange rates would be updated and available to merchants in real time. They could quote product prices in one, two, three or more currencies. They might prompt users with CC (as in currency choice, meaning they accept gold, fiat, crypto etc.) or CCC (crypto-currency choice) pricing signs.

Average consumers would store the majority of their wealth in which ever form of money they deemed most stable (likely gold) and keep about 2% or so of their wealth in other (crypto) currencies. Traditionally, actual physical exchange and storage of money has made it impractical and costly to trade in and out of currencies frequently, but the Internet and cryptocurrencies reduce or remove such barriers.

If over 95% of your wealth is usually in gold, for example, are you ever really concerned about a 51% attack, or the possibility of new and better cryptocurrencies? Not really. You only hold a given cryptocurrency for short periods of time, probably based on exchanged rates, and perhaps even managed by a professional.

Again, we find cryptocurrencies are strengthened overall.

Conclusion

So while the community had fractured over TBF I believe we're all on the same side again Smiley

I think everyone (TBF opponents in particular) should begin adopting, promoting and using Litecoin to diversify cryptocurrencies in the market. People should have cryptocurrency portfolios, I think with BTC and LTC starting things off. Exchanges, eWallets, and merchants should add support for multiple cryptocurrencies so people can switch between them easily. Vircurex.com and Btc-e.com currently reflect this well.

The exchange rate for Litecoins I estimate should be around $3, which is about 4 times less than Bitcoin's current rate, because there will be about 4 times as many Litecoins than Bitcoins in total. I personally will be working hard to help the community move in this direction. It also means broader wealth distribution as there are already about the same number of LTC as BTC in existence.
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According to NIST and ECRYPT II, the cryptographic algorithms used in Bitcoin are expected to be strong until at least 2030. (After that, it will not be too difficult to transition to different algorithms.)
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October 03, 2012, 09:48:07 PM
 #2

Agree, there can be competition on many levels and should be. And if this brings peace to Bitcoin, it's win win.

Quote
he exchange rate for Litecoins I estimate should be around $3, which is about 4 times less than Bitcoin's current rate, because there will be about 4 times as many Litecoins than Bitcoins in total.

LOL. Loaded litecoins much?
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October 03, 2012, 09:51:14 PM
 #3

Don't like changes to the Bitcoin protocol? Hard fork.

I don't understand all the fuss.

Hard fork and your coins aren't recognized by most as Bitcoins. No, that solves nothing. It appeases the developers but not people who want to use their money on their terms.

A fork works well for Linux when you get the same experience afterwards. That's not the case for money.

Nobody wants to deal in a unrecognized currency. That is not a choice. That's a cop-out.
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October 03, 2012, 10:20:03 PM
 #4

I am underwhelmed and unconvinced.

acoindr (OP)
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October 03, 2012, 10:21:14 PM
 #5

Don't like changes to the Bitcoin protocol? Hard fork.

I don't understand all the fuss.

Hard fork and your coins aren't recognized by most as Bitcoins. No, that solves nothing. It appeases the developers but not people who want to use their money on their terms.

A fork works well for Linux when you get the same experience afterwards. That's not the case for money.

Nobody wants to deal in a unrecognized currency. That is not a choice. That's a cop-out.

Yes, it solves everything. I use Bitcoin because I don't like fiat. Bitcoin popularity is growing, in my opinion, for that very reason. If Bitcoin becomes something that resembles fiat, we, the early adopters, will hard fork and stick with the original protocol, for the same reasons we use Bitcoin now. If the unwashed masses that you love to fear choose Bitcoin 2.0, let them. I don't care.

I've been dealing in an unrecognized currency since I've found Bitcoin. That's my choice.

What are you going to do, call everyone on the phone form the "early adopters" section of your phone book?
acoindr (OP)
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October 03, 2012, 10:22:06 PM
 #6

FAIL

Okay, we see you know how to use the font tag... Care to elaborate?
acoindr (OP)
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October 03, 2012, 10:24:22 PM
 #7

I am underwhelmed and unconvinced.

That's fine. You're part of the market, and free to have an opinion. But the market is larger than you (and me), and if it thinks I'm right then that's how things will play out.
acoindr (OP)
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October 03, 2012, 10:26:34 PM
 #8

Don't like changes to the Bitcoin protocol? Hard fork.

I don't understand all the fuss.

Hard fork and your coins aren't recognized by most as Bitcoins. No, that solves nothing. It appeases the developers but not people who want to use their money on their terms.

A fork works well for Linux when you get the same experience afterwards. That's not the case for money.

Nobody wants to deal in a unrecognized currency. That is not a choice. That's a cop-out.

Yes, it solves everything. I use Bitcoin because I don't like fiat. Bitcoin popularity is growing, in my opinion, for that very reason. If Bitcoin becomes something that resembles fiat, we, the early adopters, will hard fork and stick with the original protocol, for the same reasons we use Bitcoin now. If the unwashed masses that you love to fear choose Bitcoin 2.0, let them. I don't care.

I've been dealing in an unrecognized currency since I've found Bitcoin. That's my choice.

What are you going to do, call everyone on the phone form the "early adopters" section of your phone book?

No. I'm simply going to ignore changes to the protocol that I disagree with. It's as simple as not "updating" some software on my computer. I'm sure when the "update" involves something like third party control or inflation, I will not be alone. And if I am, so be it.

Well, you're essentially saying the same thing I am. the only difference is your fork happens after something bad happens, but my version happens before.
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October 04, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
 #9

The announcement of the Bitcoin Foundation has shaken this community; its thread received 50 plus pages and over 13K views in about 72 hours.

LOL

It seems to me the only ones who were shaken were a relatively few who posted the same paranoia over and over again. 

If you count the number of unique users making comments as opposed to total posts it seems to me like the first pages
of that thread, you mention, had more positive comments than negative...  and then there are all the users who might
not have posted due to... meh... 

I am neutral myself, perhaps tending towards somewhat positive.   I don't see the foundation as being any danger to Bitcoin,
nor of it being a great force bringing awareness and light to the masses.   

There are many ways it can help, sure, along with many other factors.
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October 04, 2012, 01:39:37 AM
 #10

LAME

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October 04, 2012, 01:45:03 AM
 #11

I will never accept Litecoins because I'll always have to worry that the sort of people who will jump to a similar chain will just do it again (Lightercoin?) and there won't be goods backing it when I go to get payback for my work.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
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October 04, 2012, 01:47:15 AM
 #12

I would be more worried about corruption if bitcoin value exploded...which I don't think it will do without TBF. I see it as a catch 22...

Hardforks aren't that hard. It’s getting others to use them that's hard.
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October 04, 2012, 02:59:31 AM
 #13

Trololol, you forgot to sell your SolidCoins? xD

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October 04, 2012, 03:02:51 AM
 #14

Acoindr,

While others may call you a hater, troller, ect. I commend you.

Right now, you are the only one who said "Hey, there is something about this I dont like, so Im gonna make it better"

Instead of just complaining, you are showing effort, and an idea thats worth discussing.

I'd happily debate you any day, and if you come to New York City, first beers are on me!  Cheesy

-Charlie

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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October 04, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
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Sorry for the delay in response. Was watching the presidential "debate". It's like watching a slow motion train wreck; you just can't look away. Typing replies now.
acoindr (OP)
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October 04, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
 #16

Don't like changes to the Bitcoin protocol? Hard fork.

I don't understand all the fuss.

Hard fork and your coins aren't recognized by most as Bitcoins. No, that solves nothing. It appeases the developers but not people who want to use their money on their terms.

A fork works well for Linux when you get the same experience afterwards. That's not the case for money.

Nobody wants to deal in a unrecognized currency. That is not a choice. That's a cop-out.

Yes, it solves everything. I use Bitcoin because I don't like fiat. Bitcoin popularity is growing, in my opinion, for that very reason. If Bitcoin becomes something that resembles fiat, we, the early adopters, will hard fork and stick with the original protocol, for the same reasons we use Bitcoin now. If the unwashed masses that you love to fear choose Bitcoin 2.0, let them. I don't care.

I've been dealing in an unrecognized currency since I've found Bitcoin. That's my choice.

What are you going to do, call everyone on the phone form the "early adopters" section of your phone book?

No. I'm simply going to ignore changes to the protocol that I disagree with. It's as simple as not "updating" some software on my computer. I'm sure when the "update" involves something like third party control or inflation, I will not be alone. And if I am, so be it.

Well, you're essentially saying the same thing I am. the only difference is your fork happens after something bad happens, but my version happens before.

No. I'm currently running software that I am comfortable with. This is "before" something bad happens. No problem.

Also, my example gets even better. If a fork occurs, I will own the private keys to Bitcoins on the "2.0" fork, which I can promptly sell to purchase more original Bitcoins. I'm actually starting to look forward to "something bad".

I don't think you have an accurate view of likely outcome...

What you have to realize is things change. In the future Bitcoin may be far more widely adopted than now. There may be no bitcointalk.org and cozy little community which is all we've ever known at this stage in Bitcoin's progress. This may be a future where TBF is a large and powerful global corporation and with recognized brand name and many legions of followers. Now supposing the "something bad" starts to happen. Your answer is, no problem hard fork, right?

Okay, how do you go about that? Are you going to do it? Alone? Is someone else going to do it? Are multiple people going to do it, at different times? And if any one of these happen how will others know about it? Say there are 14 different hard forks. How is anyone going to know which one to follow?

The minute you jump on one of the Bitcoin 2 forks your coins have zero value, because they are not accepted anywhere.

What gives money value is that it is widely accepted. Once something you have to trade as money is not accepted, it ceases to have any value (if it ever had any).

A Bitcoin 2 would not magically materialize, uncoordinated, and have people miraculously know to follow that particular fork. That's why waiting for forks after something bad happened wouldn't work.

On the other hand by supporting a different Bitcoin version now at this stage, when the original Bitcoin is not widely accepted, the second version can grow along with the original one grows. Make sense?
acoindr (OP)
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October 04, 2012, 05:17:43 PM
 #17

The announcement of the Bitcoin Foundation has shaken this community; its thread received 50 plus pages and over 13K views in about 72 hours.

LOL

It seems to me the only ones who were shaken were a relatively few who posted the same paranoia over and over again.  

The exact same paranoia was posted in 50 plus pages? I think many distinct points were made actually. And besides, we're talking about future events. Who can exactly predict and articulate the future?

What could opponents to the adoption of the Federal Reserve Act in 1913 have said at that time? Could not all of their objections been hand waved away as "paranoia"?


If you count the number of unique users making comments as opposed to total posts it seems to me like the first pages
of that thread, you mention, had more positive comments than negative...  and then there are all the users who might
not have posted due to... meh...  

Of course early pages would be expected to start off positive. It was meant to be a positive announcement was it not? Heck even I can see the advantages of having such an organization. I've never disputed that. But as dialogue continued and objections were raised opinions could have shifted. This reminds me of the forum poll on the topic. That poll started fairly early in the debate. To my knowledge you can't go back and change answers, yet that poll still shows clear reservation to TBF was held.

I am neutral myself, perhaps tending towards somewhat positive.   I don't see the foundation as being any danger to Bitcoin,
nor of it being a great force bringing awareness and light to the masses.  

There are many ways it can help, sure, along with many other factors.

Yes, I agree exactly with your last sentence. It's the "along with" other factors that raises concern.
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October 04, 2012, 05:20:51 PM
 #18

LAME

You know what the fail and lame comments remind me of? The typical reaction to people first hearing about "Bitcoin". We're seeing how that's turning out.
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October 04, 2012, 05:24:48 PM
 #19

Moderators: Please move this thread to the Alternative Currencies section as more than half of the OP is an alternative currency.
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October 04, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
 #20

I will never accept Litecoins because I'll always have to worry that the sort of people who will jump to a similar chain will just do it again (Lightercoin?) and there won't be goods backing it when I go to get payback for my work.

Now here you touch on a very important point, which I discussed in the OP.

It's the basis for the thread, in fact.

Up to this point most of the community imagined Bitcoin would slowly gain acceptance creeping into the mainstream, at which point its value would explode. What's interesting is nothing like Bitcoin has ever existed in the history of the world, so nobody knows exactly how things will play out.

As people learned more about how Bitcoin worked the topic of other versions of coins starting came up. Since the code is all open source and nobody controls anything, then why couldn't other coins start up trying to win support and enriching early adopters?

It wasn't long before such alt-coins did begin. The first was actually Namecoin if I remember correctly, and its purpose was not wealth creation or storage, but rather decentralizing distribution of naming rights to address government control/censorship of Internet TLDs.

Many people asked your exact question. What would prevent people jumping to other coin versions? The answer is nothing, really, except alternates would have to win support against coins having the advantage of already being established. And since there is no limit to the number of alternates that could be created they would all challenge each other as well. The result would be that adoption of any new coin wouldn't happen simply because it was new and offered the chance at early adoption. A coin would only gain favor for some specific reason, something existing which established coins didn't offer.

Soon other wealth purposed coins did pop up, like IOCoin and IXCoin, but these offered no real reason for adoption other than the early adopter play, which as explained isn't enough. So such versions went nowhere. But then other coins started that actually did seek to offer some specific benefit of use besides early adoption. Of these Litecoin has gained the most traction, as it has some neat aspects like CPU focused mining, and faster confirmation times. It was designed to be the silver to Bitcoin's gold. Vircurex.com I think gives good indication of coin traction because you can compare exchange and hash rates to see market preference.

But none of the "specialized" coins has really done much to date either. The community has only had eyes for Bitcoin. In fact, I myself only looked into what Litecoin actually did a couple days ago when I made the connection for usage as regards TBF. Any coin needs a catalyst for adoption, and I think this is it for Litecoin. Now there is a compelling reason for Bitcoin community members to adopt it: it can check the power any Bitcoin Foundation might garner over Bitcoin.

Most people probably assumed alt-coins would enter the market a some time far into the future, once Bitcoin was established and more thought went into specialized coins. So nobody paid much attention to them. However, I think the time is now for at least one of them - Litecoin.

As for the dangers of people switching from coin to coin you mention, that's what I address in my OP in the "An Unexpected Development" section. Please re-read that to understand what I mean Smiley

I plan to soon offer a Cryptocurrency Index with live exchange rates, a first step which should help the community understand what I envision.

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