Singular "they"

[theymos]

Also, wanted to point out that "he / his / him" aren't really a politically correct pronoun anymore. It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

Masculine pronouns sound much better. I always try to use them instead of singular "they".

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[dree12]

Also, wanted to point out that "he / his / him" aren't really a politically correct pronoun anymore. It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

Masculine pronouns sound much better. I always try to use them instead of singular "they".

They (no pun intended) are unfair and could be taken as sexist. I use either singular "they" (e.g. "themself") for both neuter and unknown gender entities, but if the situation is formal enough that that cannot be justified, I use "he or she" (unknown gender) or "it" (no gender).

[kuzetsa]

Also, wanted to point out that "he / his / him" aren't really a politically correct pronoun anymore. It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

Masculine pronouns sound much better. I always try to use them instead of singular "they".

They (no pun intended) are unfair and could be taken as sexist. I use either singular "they" (e.g. "themself") for both neuter and unknown gender entities, but if the situation is formal enough that that cannot be justified, I use "he or she" (unknown gender) or "it" (no gender).

Wow lol thanks

Masculine pronouns sound much better. I always try to use them instead of singular "they".

Might I ask how you qualify "better" (sounding) in this case?

Some people feel that exclusively using "he / him / his" effectively erases half the population when such language is used in discussing a topic.

The free speech we all enjoy stops being fair, equal, and "just an opinion" when it is suddenly reinforced and backed up by influence, the ability to suggest policy, to set an example for behavior and tone, etc.

As an admin / moderator, I would have expected you to take more care by using a more friendly / neutral choice of words.

"sounds better in your opinion" doesn't make it right.

[theymos]

Might I ask how you qualify "better" (sounding) in this case?

Some people feel that exclusively using "he / him / his" effectively erases half the population when such language is used in discussing a topic.

The free speech we all enjoy stops being fair, equal, and "just an opinion" when it is suddenly reinforced and backed up by influence, the ability to suggest policy, to set an example for behabior and tone, etc.

As an admin / moderator, I would have expected you to take more care with a more friendly / neutral choice of words.
"sounds better in your opinion" doesn't make it right.

Stuff like "themself" just sounds wrong. "Them" and "they" are plural. If you use such words in a singular sense, you either need to fill the sentence with plural words (e.g. "they are"), which makes the sentence ambiguous and often sounds strange, or you need to break agreement rules (e.g. "they is"), which sounds really bad.

"He", etc. are the appropriate singular words to use when talking about someone of unknown gender. "Masculine" pronouns don't really imply any gender. Using masculine pronouns is how this issue has traditionally been handled in English.

Plenty of other languages are "unfair" in this way. In French, if you're talking about a group of people which contains any males, you always use the male form of "they".

[cbeast]

Using "they" to denote a single person when you do not want their gender known, such as in an investigation, helps keep the identity of the person and even situation more objective. The one I hate is "significant other."

[Atlas]

We can just use feminine terms such as "she" by default.

[dree12]

Might I ask how you qualify "better" (sounding) in this case?

Some people feel that exclusively using "he / him / his" effectively erases half the population when such language is used in discussing a topic.

The free speech we all enjoy stops being fair, equal, and "just an opinion" when it is suddenly reinforced and backed up by influence, the ability to suggest policy, to set an example for behabior and tone, etc.

As an admin / moderator, I would have expected you to take more care with a more friendly / neutral choice of words.
"sounds better in your opinion" doesn't make it right.

Stuff like "themself" just sounds wrong. "Them" and "they" are plural. If you use such words in a singular sense, you either need to fill the sentence with plural words (e.g. "they are"), which makes the sentence ambiguous and often sounds strange, or you need to break agreement rules (e.g. "they is"), which sounds really bad.

"He", etc. are the appropriate singular words to use when talking about someone of unknown gender. "Masculine" pronouns don't really imply any gender. Using masculine pronouns is how this issue has traditionally been handled in English.

Plenty of other languages are "unfair" in this way. In French, if you're talking about a group of people which contains any males, you always use the male form of "they".

Je comprends, mais il y a des personnes qui préfèrent l'option plus juste.

The issue with using masculine pronouns is that they, as implied by their name, are masculine. This causes confusion. How would you refer to a male, if the masculine pronoun is used instead as a neuter pronoun?

"They are" is not a problem. It's identical to "You are", which is also ambiguous in the same way ("You (p) are" has the same spelling as "You (s) are"). Even French has this ambiguity, "Vous êtes" and "Vous êtes" are spelt identically, while one is formal singular and the other is plural.

"They" is a natural choice because it is commonly used in speech. Therefore, application to writing in an informal context is simple.

[kuzetsa]

The Cambridge Guide to English Usage is an A–Z reference book, giving an up-to-date account of the debatable issues of English usage and written style.

((...snip...))

When we need to refer back to something in the third person plural, the pronoun they / them / their serves the purpose. It also serves generic purposes, in statements which claim universal validity:

They also serve who only stand and wait.

"Universal" use of the third person plural pronoun is also the one found in statements like:

Everyone has to consider their future.

This of course is more contentious. Purists might say that it's ungrammatical to use their after everyone, because one requires a singular pronoun. Many others would say that generic / universal their provides us with a gender-free pronoun, avoiding the exclusive his and the clumsy his / her. It avoids gratuitous sexism and gives the statement broadest reference.

With determiners such as each, the same things apply:

Each member of the group must be prepared to bring in samples of their work to discuss.

Again the use of their following an indefinite noun phrase allows it to remain gender-free and inclusive.

They / them / their are now freely used in agreement with singular indefinite pronouns and determiners, those with universal implications such as any(one), every(one), no(one), as well as each and some(one), whose reference is often more individual. For those listening or reading, it has become unremarkable - an element of common usage. In fact the Oxford Dictionary (1989) has it on record since C16, but its acceptance was preempted by C18 grammarians, whose anxieties about formal agreement were reiterated in C20 by Fowler (1926) and Gowers (1965). The singular use of they / them / their after everyone and other indefinites can now be explained as a kind of "notional agreement" (see underagreement).

Current dictionaries register the singular use of they, them and their among its definitions, often with an explanatory usage note. New Oxford (1998) treats their acceptability after indefinite pronouns as given, and is willing to embrace the next stage (use with indefinite nouns) in dictionary definitions. Merriam-Webster (2000) takes both for granted. The Canadian Oxford (1998) plays down the objections against its spreading use, and underscores its usefulness in avoiding sexist language. Webster's English Usage (1989) illustrates current uses of singular they / them / their following indefinite nouns and pronouns in various kinds of publication from the mass-circulating to the academic. Australian research by Eagleson (1995) finds singular use of they / them / their in a range of writing from advertising to professional publications and legislation. The Australian government Style Manual (2002) endorses it as "standard idiom in most contexts." All this evidence from different quarters of the English-speaking world shows that singular use of they / them / their after indefinites is now well established in writing.

Language historians would note that the trend towards using they for both plural and singular is exactly what happened with you some centuries ago (see you and ye). The trend is probably "irreversible" (Burchfield, 1996). Those who find it uncomfortable can take advantage of the various avoidance strategies mentioned under he and/or she, to be used when grammatical liberties with they / them / their are unthinkable. Yet that kind of response to singular they / them / their is no longer shared by the English-speaking population at large. Writers who use singular they / them / their are not at fault.

((...snip...))

Like I said:

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It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

((...snip...))

Legit modern english. Anyone have thoughts on the matter?

Edited to add:

Just before anyone trolls too hard, comic relief and such:

[Etlase2]

Je comprends, mais il y a des personnes qui préfèrent l'option plus juste.

"il" can mean "he" (masc), "it" (masc), or "there" (neutral), and it most definitely means "there" in this case and has nothing to do with masculine/feminine pronouns. Ils sont would be sexist in a group of mixed company, if something like that actually bothers people.

[kuzetsa]

Also, wanted to point out that "he / his / him" aren't really a politically correct pronoun anymore. It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

Masculine pronouns sound much better. I always try to use them instead of singular "they".

Above quote (by theymos) had an omission.

This was moved to a new thread. [ DO NOT POST SESC LINKS ]Originally I wasn't discussing french at all, but rather, the original post (regarding masculine pronouns used for description of forum ranks) in the thread from which this string of off-topic posts was moved[/url]:


Quote of the OP on that thread (to provide context)

((...snip...))

Rank	Description	Tag
Brand New:	Zero posts, gets 1 gold coin under his name.
Newbie:	Has less than 4 hours of logged in time, and gets 1 gold coin under his name.
Jr. Member:	Between 5 and 100 posts, and gets 2 gold coins under his name.
Full member:	Between 100 and 250 posts, and gets 3 gold coins under his name.
Sr. Member:	Between 250 and 500 posts, and gets 4 gold coins under his name.
Hero Member:	More than 500 posts, gets 5 gold coins under his name.

((...snip...))

^ that ^

Specifically, things on the forums such as "Zero posts, gets 1 gold coin under his name."

instead as:

Zero posts, gets 1 gold coin under their name.

Grammatically correct to do so in modern english.

[bitcats]

Also, wanted to point out that "he / his / him" aren't really a politically correct pronoun anymore. It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

Yes it would! Singular "they, theirs" sounds asinine. People with cerebral constipation introduced it and the pinheads adopted it.

[kuzetsa]

Also, wanted to point out that "he / his / him" aren't really a politically correct pronoun anymore. It is 2012 for heaven's sake. Would "singular they / theirs / them" be too much to ask for?

Yes it would! Singular "they, theirs" sounds asinine. People with cerebral constipation introduced it and the pinheads adopted it.

And now here is my quoting something written by shakespeare ... truly asinine indeed. I mostly just have trouble understanding why people prefer it in the its original grammatical "ye old" style:

There's not a man I meet but doth salute me as if I were their well-acquainted friend

[JoelKatz]

"Singular they": God said it, I believe it, that settles it
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003572.html

Then shalt thou bring forth that man, or that woman (which haue committed that wicked thing) vnto thy gates, euen that man, or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones till they die.

So likewise shall my heauenly Father doe also vnto you, if yee from your hearts forgiue not euery one his brother their trespasses.

[bitcats]

And now here is my quoting something written by shakespeare ... truly asinine indeed. I mostly just have trouble understanding why people prefer it in the its original grammatical "ye old" style:

There's not a man I meet but doth salute me as if I were their well-acquainted friend

THIS .. sounds truly asinine, isn't it (isn't they)?

(They shall apologize and note that I m a German fellow)

[kuzetsa]

"Singular they": God said it, I believe it, that settles it...

LOL Oh god... literally?


Edited to combine posts:

And now here is my quoting something written by shakespeare ... truly asinine indeed. I mostly just have trouble understanding why people prefer it in the its original grammatical "ye old" style:

There's not a man I meet but doth salute me as if I were their well-acquainted friend

THIS .. sounds truly asinine, isn't it (isn't they)?

(They shall apologize and note that I m a German fellow)

... So noted:

Neu:
- Treuhandzwang für neue Verkäufer

Wenn ich das schon lese, krieg ich Verstopfung.
Treuhandzwang, Verifizierungszwang, Legalisierungszwang, ... es wird nicht mehr lange dauern, und wir haben in der Bitcoin"welt" die gleichen Zwänge etabliert wie überall in unserer "zivilisierten" Welt.

Uhm... Du bist ein kartoffel salat (sorry that's all I know, and not sure / can't remember what it means any more)

Edited to add:

Oh wow sorry. Someone taught me that phase years ago (at or around 1993) and I never looked it up. German speakers typically laugh when I say it to them. Now I feel foolish: Apparently I said "you are a potato salad" to a half dozen people thinking it was a cute chat-up line

((Is there an idiomatic innuendo which I am not aware of, or is it really just that funny / nonsensical that an english speaker would say such a misguided phrase while attempting to flirt))

... Goodnight. I obviously shouldn't be trying to use my brain at this late hour