The Real Problem isn't XT...

[iCEBREAKER]

There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the block size debate.

Given that the issue is not urgent, I think the core team has taken the right approach. Bitcoin eventually needs to scale to more than 7 transactions per second but there is no compelling reason to rush out a fix.

The problem here is, that nobody knows, when it will become urgent. You can't predict that, even if some people seem to have crystal balls.
The other problem are people, who think, the system has to break, before we fix it(even thought nobody in his right mind could think, that it won't break)

It seems all the XT bashers have some sort of crystal balls that tell us "blocksize increase is not needed yet and when the next bitcoin adoption wave will be"

Not surprising tho. I've yet to read a single valuable argument from them except "Fear, Uncertainty and Dout"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Do you consider Meni R an "XT basher" now?   

[madjules007]

Bitcoin has no problem, it is some of the dev's mindset having problem: They don't want to look at the big picture and try to reach over 90% consensus as much as possible (by making some compromise), instead they insist on their own view and try to politicize the change and split the community. Luckily, bitcoin is totally free to participate, every non-sheeple would use their own brain to make a choice

So where does that leave us? I'm not a bitcoin miner, just a user. All I can do is a run a node, but at the end of the day, I'm not technically knowledgeable enough to know what the right solution is, or who to support. And all I can say is that the way that XT was rolled out and politicized leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And that the uncertainty is killing me.

[johnyj]

How exactly it is a group of dictators?

By that logic, wouldnt that make bitcoin core dev group a group of dictator?

The economic majority (the ppl that give bitcoin economic value) seeks for features they want , and instead they got told what to have by a group of ppl?

 Here we go again with your stupid perspective of industrial miners. If you didnt see this long time ago, it just showed your lack of economy understanding. And such you want a group of ppl (bitcoin core devs) to act as economic experts and control the "economy" by "policies"

Dictatorship is using power to control others, the power does not limit to physical force or political influence, but more and more appeared as knowledge. This kind of dictatorship is very common in Git hosted open source software projects: Anyone who submit a code change in Git would have to be approved by the code reviewer and core devs, e.g. a group of core devs have the right to decide what should be accepted in bitcoin code and what should not. And when they could not reach agreement, there will be a fork

Since bitcoin now have so much influence, there are many people who want to push in some code that is of their interest and reach millions of users around the world by an update of bitcoin protocol. Thus you see Mike wants to push in some code that is useful for Lighthouse project, while Peter wants to push in some code for Lightning network, and someone else might wait in some lines to get bitcoin work with Etherium, and so on... Who should decide what should be included and what should not be? It is better no one should be allow to change the protocol unless in a clear and real crisis that is understandable for everyone. This is similar to that no one should be allowed to change IP protocol while everyone can freely built their own application upon it

[johnyj]

Bitcoin has no problem, it is some of the dev's mindset having problem: They don't want to look at the big picture and try to reach over 90% consensus as much as possible (by making some compromise), instead they insist on their own view and try to politicize the change and split the community. Luckily, bitcoin is totally free to participate, every non-sheeple would use their own brain to make a choice

So where does that leave us? I'm not a bitcoin miner, just a user. All I can do is a run a node, but at the end of the day, I'm not technically knowledgeable enough to know what the right solution is, or who to support. And all I can say is that the way that XT was rolled out and politicized leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And that the uncertainty is killing me.

Good question! I believe that it is very difficult to decide even if you have enough knowledge (The more you know the more question you have). In fact I constantly change sides if I consider it from a different view: Maybe Gavin is right in using some force to brake the current deadlock status?

But eventually I prefer the least risky approach when facing uncertainty. Maybe those guys sitting at the top can see far beyond what I can see, but I can not blindly trust anybody, but only take the most conservative approach

[jabo38]

It is a vote.  Gavin just called for an election.  People need to stop freaking out.  It isn't over throwing the ways or a revolution.  Right now XT has about 10% of the node votes and 0% of miner votes.  http://xtnodes.com/index.php

But per the whole vote thing, really, it is kind of silly and bitcoin is broken.  There are only 20 people in all of bitcoin that matter.  Those are the 20 admins of the 20 biggest pools.  Together they control more than 95% of the bitcoin hash.  And technically Gavin only needs 75% of the vote, which is actually only the top 6 guys he needs to convince. https://blockchain.info/pools

It is a vote and it is an election, but really only among 20 delegates that are being supported by their constituencies of miners.  

[tl121]

It is a vote.  Gavin just called for an election.  People need to stop freaking out.  It isn't over throwing the ways or a revolution.  Right now XT has about 10% of the node votes and 0% of miner votes.  http://xtnodes.com/index.php

But per the whole vote thing, really, it is kind of silly and bitcoin is broken.  There are only 20 people in all of bitcoin that matter.  Those are the 20 admins of the 20 biggest pools.  Together they control more than 95% of the bitcoin hash.  And technically Gavin only needs 75% of the vote, which is actually only the top 6 guys he needs to convince. https://blockchain.info/pools

It is a vote and it is an election, but really only among 20 delegates that are being supported by their constituencies of miners.  

The Admins of the pools are irrelevant.  It's the people with mining hardware who matter and the people who will buy their bitcoins from them so they can pay their electricity bills.  It takes a miner a few minutes to switch pools.

[iCEBREAKER]

Right now XT and NotXT have about 10% of the node votes

FTFY.

[slaveforanunnak1]

The real problem isn't XT.  The real problem is that there is no good means to break a serious impasse. 

XT is a tiny problem - many alternatives exist to get bitcoin to scale.  But XT taught us one thing, Bitcoin is extremely fragile when the core devs can't naturally reach agreement in conversation. 

This XT thing will soon blow over and with or without a fork - Bitcoin will go on in good shape. But, someone ought to start thinking about the next thing which will cause a division.  A division which gets a real durable 50%/50% opinion going will destroy Bitcoin I think. 

XT is probably going to win this argument in about 1 hour after the hard fork.  The next round of disagreement probably won't end up the same way. 

We really need Satoshi to sign a tie-breaking message once in a while.  He is a real coward for checking out like he did.  jk

Hey Sato - how about giving the community a little guidance -  eh?  Just a little 'pip' once in a while.  How about if you sign a '1' for yes on XT or a '0' for no on XT?  That would sure help.  Now that Mike invoked your name, it really does fall on you. 

he did, but everyone is calling it a fake.

[Velkro]

The real problem isn't XT.  The real problem is that there is no good means to break a serious impasse. 

Thats true for one good reason, there is no good soution, both have advantages and disadvantages. I want Bitcoin to become global payment network so it must be increased from 1 MB to 8MB minimum.

[johnyj]

It is a vote.  Gavin just called for an election.  People need to stop freaking out.  It isn't over throwing the ways or a revolution.  Right now XT has about 10% of the node votes and 0% of miner votes.  http://xtnodes.com/index.php

But per the whole vote thing, really, it is kind of silly and bitcoin is broken.  There are only 20 people in all of bitcoin that matter.  Those are the 20 admins of the 20 biggest pools.  Together they control more than 95% of the bitcoin hash.  And technically Gavin only needs 75% of the vote, which is actually only the top 6 guys he needs to convince. https://blockchain.info/pools

It is a vote and it is an election, but really only among 20 delegates that are being supported by their constituencies of miners.  

I would call it a divorce, since the winner are not able to prevent the other chain from grow, while in an election, the loser must follow the lead of winner

At first, the winner vs loser would look like bitcoin vs litecoin, however, since both chains have same algorithm, miners are free to switch between these two different chains: When A chain is not profitable, they will go to B chain, thus make B chain stronger, thus B chain regain popularity if someone is pumping up the price of B chain. This kind of situation will drag along for many years to come

Vote is not a way to solve the problem in a decentralized system

[Pab]

The real problem isn't XT.  The real problem is that there is no good means to break a serious impasse. 

XT is a tiny problem - many alternatives exist to get bitcoin to scale.  But XT taught us one thing, Bitcoin is extremely fragile when the core devs can't naturally reach agreement in conversation. 

This XT thing will soon blow over and with or without a fork - Bitcoin will go on in good shape. But, someone ought to start thinking about the next thing which will cause a division.  A division which gets a real durable 50%/50% opinion going will destroy Bitcoin I think. 

XT is probably going to win this argument in about 1 hour after the hard fork.  The next round of disagreement probably won't end up the same way. 

We really need Satoshi to sign a tie-breaking message once in a while.  He is a real coward for checking out like he did.  jk

Hey Sato - how about giving the community a little guidance -  eh?  Just a little 'pip' once in a while.  How about if you sign a '1' for yes on XT or a '0' for no on XT?  That would sure help.  Now that Mike invoked your name, it really does fall on you. 

I agree with you,no collaboration between main devs,and lack of informations,no basic transparency
I fSatoshi will appear,peoplewill not believe it is real Satoshi

Will anybody lesson him after years

What is he thinking about bitcoin now
will be great to hear

[jabo38]

The real problem isn't XT.  The real problem is that there is no good means to break a serious impasse. 

XT is a tiny problem - many alternatives exist to get bitcoin to scale.  But XT taught us one thing, Bitcoin is extremely fragile when the core devs can't naturally reach agreement in conversation. 

This XT thing will soon blow over and with or without a fork - Bitcoin will go on in good shape. But, someone ought to start thinking about the next thing which will cause a division.  A division which gets a real durable 50%/50% opinion going will destroy Bitcoin I think. 

XT is probably going to win this argument in about 1 hour after the hard fork.  The next round of disagreement probably won't end up the same way. 

We really need Satoshi to sign a tie-breaking message once in a while.  He is a real coward for checking out like he did.  jk

Hey Sato - how about giving the community a little guidance -  eh?  Just a little 'pip' once in a while.  How about if you sign a '1' for yes on XT or a '0' for no on XT?  That would sure help.  Now that Mike invoked your name, it really does fall on you. 

I agree with you,no collaboration between main devs,and lack of informations,no basic transparency
I fSatoshi will appear,peoplewill not believe it is real Satoshi

Will anybody lesson him after years

What is he thinking about bitcoin now
will be great to hear

One would assume he has his keys to his coins and can sign them or move them to prove it is him.

[Kevin77]

One would assume he has his keys to his coins and can sign them or move them to prove it is him.

You still have your first toys? I'd say that he lost most of his private keys too.

[jabo38]

One would assume he has his keys to his coins and can sign them or move them to prove it is him.

You still have your first toys? I'd say that he lost most of his private keys too.

maybe so.  it was just an experiment back then and they were worth nothing.  then again...... he was Satoshi. 

[Linuld]

...
Regardless, I really don't understand why people care what he would think anyhow.

He is the only person that when voicing his opinion in this matter, could actually be considered unbiased,
since he was the creator and in theory would make the best choice for Bitcoin/bitcoin, and not for himself.

His decision in this matter, if 100% verified to be him, would end the debate immediately, IMO.

But, as I have said many times, I believe he is no longer living as well.

One man should never have that much power.

Satoshi comes off as a brilliant man, women or group.  They will never return, their opinion is now regarded as gods opinion.. such power is bad.

Satoshi created bitcoin for the people, Satoshi can no longer be involved, Bitcoin cannot have one person/group that decides it's future.

I think you are right. When Satoshi would speak up then his word would be a law. No one would speak against without surviving it because bitcoiners love satoshi till death.

Though i think this is the biggest real crisis for the community and the development of bitcoin. Before crisis were only scams or drop of price. That is nothing with the technology. But now satoshi really could start to say a word in order to safe bitcoin. It's his child at the end.

I think he still takes part in the community. Maybe we wrote with him already without knowing it. I really don't think he is not here anymore.

[Linuld]

Satoshi almost certainly died a few years ago.

This is blasphemy 

I don't belive hour great leader is dead... no I WON'T belive our great leader is dead
He is still there watching us. I think he will step in if bitcoin will get in real danger.

For now is everthing ok. We have nothing to worry about the XT will slowly fade away and die.

Satoshi can't die. And even if he dies he will resurrect. There are enough bitcoiners that see him as some form of holy being or god at all. Maybe it's a joke but he is a mysterious figure that no one can see, he only lives in stories from the past. I wonder if there will be a sect like "Fraternity of Satoshi" or so at one point.

[brg444]

...
Regardless, I really don't understand why people care what he would think anyhow.

He is the only person that when voicing his opinion in this matter, could actually be considered unbiased,
since he was the creator and in theory would make the best choice for Bitcoin/bitcoin, and not for himself.

His decision in this matter, if 100% verified to be him, would end the debate immediately, IMO.

But, as I have said many times, I believe he is no longer living as well.

One man should never have that much power.

Satoshi comes off as a brilliant man, women or group.  They will never return, their opinion is now regarded as gods opinion.. such power is bad.

Satoshi created bitcoin for the people, Satoshi can no longer be involved, Bitcoin cannot have one person/group that decides it's future.

I think you are right. When Satoshi would speak up then his word would be a law. No one would speak against without surviving it because bitcoiners love satoshi till death.

Though i think this is the biggest real crisis for the community and the development of bitcoin. Before crisis were only scams or drop of price. That is nothing with the technology. But now satoshi really could start to say a word in order to safe bitcoin. It's his child at the end.

I think he still takes part in the community. Maybe we wrote with him already without knowing it. I really don't think he is not here anymore.

I'm sorry but this ideology is why Satoshi is never coming back and an example of how dangerous for Bitcoin it would be.

This is not your religion.

There is no Satoshi.

There is no God.

[Linuld]

XT already lost.  The three largest mining pools in China, who own 30% of the hash rate, have already publicly said they're not willing to switch to XT.

Good.  Thank F that's over.

Average block is only around 500kb right now, so there's still loads of time to come to a solution and consensus regarding blocksize before we reach the 1MB limit.

i remember that they said they are not against the 8mb change, so they are waiting that the change is incorporated in core or something?

or like everyone else they are waiting for this magical alternative...

Yeah, to my understanding, absolutely everyone agrees that blocksize will need to increase in the future.  The mining pools in China have simply stated they want consensus amongst the core developers, not Mike and Gavin to try forcing a hard fork down everyone's throats, like they're doing.

Bitcoin is still a long ways off from having any type of issues due to the 1MB blocksize limit, so there's still loads of time to reach a consensus, and roll out a proper hard fork.  Mike and Gavin though and hyping this issue to make it seem like we're in panic times and need to act urgently, which just isn't true.  The bitcoin network will continue humming along just fine with the 1MB blocksize limit for a good while to come yet.

I think there will never be a consensus since the other part of the core developers seems to be involved in blockstream and the lightning network. The thing is, when bitcoins gets unreliable, expensive and slow, then that sidechain will get more transactions, which translates to more fees.

The developers already would have said they will 8 MB blocks if they would want them. Though they, for the most part, don't want to. There is no reason to believe they will change their view anytime soon.

[Linuld]

...
Regardless, I really don't understand why people care what he would think anyhow.

He is the only person that when voicing his opinion in this matter, could actually be considered unbiased,
since he was the creator and in theory would make the best choice for Bitcoin/bitcoin, and not for himself.

His decision in this matter, if 100% verified to be him, would end the debate immediately, IMO.

But, as I have said many times, I believe he is no longer living as well.

One man should never have that much power.

Satoshi comes off as a brilliant man, women or group.  They will never return, their opinion is now regarded as gods opinion.. such power is bad.

Satoshi created bitcoin for the people, Satoshi can no longer be involved, Bitcoin cannot have one person/group that decides it's future.

I think you are right. When Satoshi would speak up then his word would be a law. No one would speak against without surviving it because bitcoiners love satoshi till death.

Though i think this is the biggest real crisis for the community and the development of bitcoin. Before crisis were only scams or drop of price. That is nothing with the technology. But now satoshi really could start to say a word in order to safe bitcoin. It's his child at the end.

I think he still takes part in the community. Maybe we wrote with him already without knowing it. I really don't think he is not here anymore.

I'm sorry but this ideology is why Satoshi is never coming back and an example of how dangerous for Bitcoin it would be.

This is not your religion.

There is no Satoshi.

There is no God.

Before you misunderstand my other post... it was ironically. I don't see him as a god. But i think if he came out and would say his opinion that his word really would be some kind of law. Because he is the one who brought bitcoin to life. And i really think that there would be not much resistance against what he claims to be right. He is simply so very much trusted.

[brg444]

Because he is the one who brought bitcoin to life. And i really think that there would be not much resistance against what he claims to be right. He is simply so very much trusted.

Only his words would be listened to and considered. You've seemingly totally missed the point of the whole anonymous act.

Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the influence of charismatic leaders, even if their name is Gavin Andresen, Barack Obama, or Satoshi Nakamoto.  Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it.  By doing a fork in this way, these developers are violating the "original vision" they claim to honour.