Dice Game - 33% Bet - Only getting paid 1 to 1 ??????

[redkinggg]

So, I am killing time playing dice at betcoin.ag  
I bet .01 on 33% that says payout is 3-1.  
I win, my balance only goes up .01    hmmmmm  Shouldn't my balance go up .03 I ask myself?
So, I contact customer service and give them the game numbers.  He continues to explain to me that the payout I was giving is correct.
Support was very rude and un-supportive tbh.
Ummmm....comments??  Am I missing something here???

Proof

[Buziss]

So, I am killing time playing dice at betoin.ag 
I bet .01 on 33% that says payout is 3-1. 
I win, my balance only goes up .01    hmmmmm  Shouldn't my balance go up .03 I ask myself?
So, I contact customer service and give them the game number.  He continues to explain to me that the payout I was giving is correct.
Ummmm....comments??  Am I missing something here???

You mean betcoin.ag, right? For winning that bet, you should be receiving 0.03 back, i.e. a profit of 0.02.

[RHavar]

Yeah, buziss is right. Definitely something wrong with that, that's the payout you should get for a 49.5% win chance bet, not a 33% win change.

Also if you bet 0.01 and your balance goes up by 0.01, it means you're getting a payout of 2-1 not 1-1. When dealing with payouts, you always lose your wager and then get the payout. So 3-1 means you should lose your bet amount (0.01) but then win (0.03), in other words see your net profit increase by 0.02

[redkinggg]

Yeah, buziss is right. Definitely something wrong with that, that's the payout you should get for a 49.5% win chance bet, not a 33% win change.

Also if you bet 0.01 and your balance goes up by 0.01, it means you're getting a payout of 2-1 not 1-1. When dealing with payouts, you always lose your wager and then get the payout. So 3-1 means you should lose your bet amount (0.01) but then win (0.03), in other words see your net profit increase by 0.02

Exactly, and my total only went from 9.96 to 9.97 after winning

[galbros]

That is totally wrong.  Are all the payouts messed up or does it just seem to be that one?  I'm glad you checked your balance as well to verify it was not just a display error.

Hopefully, someone from there will weigh in here and make good the mistake on your account.

[Shogen]

I have sent Betcoin.AG (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=202115) a PM just now pointing him to this thread, so hopefully we will know what's wrong soon when he comes online.

[NLNico]

Code:

49827	Girlscout	01:37	0.32	4.50x	< 22.00	10.13	1.11

0.32*4.50-0.32= 1.12

Seems they simply get 0.01 from every win  for no reason.

[21coin]

Code:

49827	Girlscout	01:37	0.32	4.50x	< 22.00	10.13	1.11

0.32*4.50-0.32= 1.12

Seems they simply get 0.01 from every win  for no reason.

Even at the highest payouts? Could be a bug probably, that they are trying to hide . Never played there, did this occur before too, I mean someone would've noticed it if it was.

[NLNico]

Correct.


Another interesting bug, which might be related, seems that they round the multiplier so you can bet with lower house edge than 1%.

Code:

48272	DINGDINGDING123	23:52	517.00	1.34x	< 74.00	71.92	175.78

multiplier = 1/odds*HE
1/0.74*0.99 = 1.33783783784

profit = 517*(1/0.74*0.99)-517 = 174.662162162

But instead of the actual multiplier they round it to 2 decimals, so that is 1.34:

517*(1.34)-517 = 175.78

So an extra 1.117837838 profit, not bad!


The opposite is also true:

Code:

49875	Flopsie	04:02	4.00	2.44x	< 40.50	39.18	5.76

1/0.4050*0.99 = 2.44444444444
4*(1/0.4050*0.99)-4= 5.77777777778 should be the profit.
4*2.44-4 = 5.76
So he should get 0.01777777778 profit more.


The house edge in these examples are 0.84% and 1.18% instead of the fixed 1%.


Normally I would fully test what's going on with these 2 seemingly bugs, but getting errors on both login and password reset so nvm.

[ftwbtc1]

I actually took the time to test this because I play frequently at Betcoin and love it, but never such small amounts of 0.01 mbtc which is about $0.002.  It appears that this only happens at an amount of 0.01 mbtc which is their stated minimum.  Every higher wager amount that I tried this at the payout is accurate.  I remember they had an issue with players abusing wagers at this amount in the past, but clearly when you put another amount in of higher value all the payouts are accurate. 

I am sure they will take care of you and certainly give you the 0.03 mbtc which is less than a penny that you have won here as they have always taken care of me in these situations.  Also, if you play such small amounts, perhaps try Primedice which I like, but the VIP program at Betcoin includes dice and I enjoy poker and sports as well. 

[Shogen]

I have sent Betcoin.AG (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=202115) a PM just now pointing him to this thread, so hopefully we will know what's wrong soon when he comes online.

FWIIW, I received a PM reply from Betcoin.AG, stating that "it's 0.01 at 3x because of the minimum amount and house edge. Anything over that amount works perfect."

[arallmuus]

I have sent Betcoin.AG (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=202115) a PM just now pointing him to this thread, so hopefully we will know what's wrong soon when he comes online.

FWIIW, I received a PM reply from Betcoin.AG, stating that "it's 0.01 at 3x because of the minimum amount and house edge.
Anything over that amount works perfect."

For the first bolded part, Minimum amount and house edge have nothing to do with the multiplier. The problem could lies with their rounding, it could be rounding issue of their multiplier (usually decimals issue ) . The same kind of issue happened a while back in crypto-games

For the second bolded part, it seems not everything over that amount works perfect based on Nico's post.

Either they have no idea/knowledge about what is going on exactly or rather wanting to cover this up for more profit. The lost amount due to this rounding issue may seem small but if players keep on betting without knowing that something is going on then they could get an extra profit each time

[DiscoverCebu]

I have sent Betcoin.AG (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=202115) a PM just now pointing him to this thread, so hopefully we will know what's wrong soon when he comes online.

FWIIW, I received a PM reply from Betcoin.AG, stating that "it's 0.01 at 3x because of the minimum amount and house edge.
Anything over that amount works perfect."

For the first bolded part, Minimum amount and house edge have nothing to do with the multiplier. The problem could lies with their rounding, it could be rounding issue of their multiplier (usually decimals issue ) . The same kind of issue happened a while back in crypto-games

For the second bolded part, it seems not everything over that amount works perfect based on Nico's post.

Either they have no idea/knowledge about what is going on exactly or rather wanting to cover this up for more profit. The lost amount due to this rounding issue may seem small but if players keep on betting without knowing that something is going on then they could get an extra profit each time

Just quting what NLNico also said.\

------Snip----

The opposite is also true:

Code:

49875	Flopsie	04:02	4.00	2.44x	< 40.50	39.18	5.76

1/0.4050*0.99 = 2.44444444444
4*(1/0.4050*0.99)-4= 5.77777777778 should be the profit.
4*2.44-4 = 5.76
So he should get 0.01777777778 profit more.


The house edge in these examples are 0.84% and 1.18% instead of the fixed 1%.


-----Snip-----

So if what he said is true , people can get an positive EV which will result in site's loss in the long run, hence I guess the devs are fixing the issue.

[arallmuus]

-snip-

If you check on the post, it is a proof that it is another rounding issue which cause the house edge to be over and under 1 % edge at some circumstances. It should be fixed though and those who are affected should be compensated

people can get an positive EV which will result in site's loss in the long run

Judging from this matter that only 1 player complained / realized about this issue, It seems no one else realized this thing . Mostly people will not be aware of few small rounding issue though (most though but someone like Nico/dooglus might be able to notice it instantly).
As for the bolded part, players are not getting any EV+ though the house edge is only lower than the quoted 1 % house edge which means that the house is still getting profit because the edge are still against the player

P.S : Im merely stating my opinion about the bolded part based on two examples from Nico's post as a thorough checking needs to be done to see if players are actually getting EV+ or not

[DiscoverCebu]

-snip-

If you check on the post, it is a proof that it is another rounding issue which cause the house edge to be over and under 1 % edge at some circumstances. It should be fixed though and those who are affected should be compensated

people can get an positive EV which will result in site's loss in the long run

Judging from this matter that only 1 player complained / realized about this issue, It seems no one else realized this thing . Mostly people will not be aware of few small rounding issue though (most though but someone like Nico/dooglus might be able to notice it instantly).
As for the bolded part, players are not getting any EV+ though the house edge is only lower than the quoted 1 % house edge which means that the house is still getting profit because the edge are still against the player

P.S : Im merely stating my opinion about the bolded part based on two examples from Nico's post as a thorough checking needs to be done to see if players are actually getting EV+ or not

Hmm I now realize what you mean, it seems its only a lowered edge not something in favour of player(pos. EV). NLNico seems to be online, maybe he can tell if this is what he meant or not.

[tsoPANos]

I would highly recommend NOT playing there.
There are lot's of long established sites out there, I find no reason to take the
risk and dive into them especially if they don't have anything new to offer.

If your screenshot is true, it is beyond any doubt that you have been cheated on.
Their support is ridiculous I mean, anyone can clearly see that you have been treated unfairly.

[cryptworld]

Contact to the admin of the sites,
That should be a profit of 0.02 bitcoin

[NLNico]

So if what he said is true , people can get an positive EV which will result in site's loss in the long run, hence I guess the devs are fixing the issue.

I think the best you can do is 97.53% odds for a 1.02 multiplier which means there is a house edge of only 0.5194% instead of 1%. If that is no fun you can do 81.48% for 1.22 multiplier with 0.6% HE. The worst you can do is 97.54% for a 1.49% HE.

As you can see it's only between ~0.5% and ~1.5% HE, positive EV is not possible.

This is issue #2 and unrelated to OP.



OP's issue #1 is separate. It seems to round the profit always down to 2 decimals + probably some float precision bug or something like that. This does not only happen on min bets, for example:

Bet 0.01 on 33% - 2x profit only 0.01 (33% HE)
Bet 0.05 on 41.95% - 2.36x profit only 0.06 (7.7% HE)
Bet 0.21 on 55% - 1.8x profit only 0.16 (3%)
Bet 1.00 on 69% - 1.43x profit only 0.42 (2% HE)
Bet 0.32 on 22% - 4.50x profit only 1.11 (1.7% HE)

Obviously the disadvantage is the biggest on the lower bets. You can just type these bets+odds on the website to see it's really giving these results.



edit: notice 81.48% from my example in issue #2 is also affected by issue #1 so you will not get that 0.6% HE on lower bets. 97.53% for 1.02 should work at all sizes though.

[Bardman]

So if what he said is true , people can get an positive EV which will result in site's loss in the long run, hence I guess the devs are fixing the issue.

I think the best you can do is 97.53% odds for a 1.02 multiplier which means there is a house edge of only 0.5194% instead of 1%. If that is no fun you can do 81.48% for 1.22 multiplier with 0.6% HE. The worst you can do is 97.54% for a 1.49% HE.

As you can see it's only between ~0.5% and ~1.5% HE, positive EV is not possible.

This is issue #2 and unrelated to OP.



OP's issue #1 is separate. It seems to round the profit always down to 2 decimals + probably some float precision bug or something like that. This does not only happen on min bets, for example:

Bet 0.01 on 33% - 2x profit only 0.01 (33% HE)
Bet 0.05 on 41.95% - 2.36x profit only 0.06 (7.7% HE)
Bet 0.21 on 55% - 1.8x profit only 0.16 (3%)
Bet 1.00 on 69% - 1.43x profit only 0.42 (2% HE)
Bet 0.32 on 22% - 4.50x profit only 1.11 (1.7% HE)

Obviously the disadvantage is the biggest on the lower bets. You can just type these bets+odds on the website to see it's really giving these results.



edit: notice 81.48% from my example in issue #2 is also affected by issue #1 so you will not get that 0.6% HE on lower bets. 97.53% for 1.02 should work at all sizes though.

If that is the case we can conclude that their site is fucked up but they are not trying to cheat because players could abuse that ´´bug´´ they still havent answered here tho, maybe they are trying to solve the problem?

[goosoodude]

It's a no-brainer that there is something terribly wrong with the bets you did and how they were paid out.
There are also reports of the site support to be slow and sloppy, and prolonging the withdrawals, as can be seen in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1158012.0
In an industry where you have sites with much better reputation and player experience, i wonder why you chose to play on that particular sites..