blockstream - wants to tax you and become the new Bitcoin oligarchy

[slaveforanunnak1]

Blockstream wants to keep Bitcoin from scaling past 1mb so they can force you to use their proprietary side chain solutions while profiting.  If this is not true, then how will they generate revenue?

discuss.

[img]-snip-[img]

I think you baffled everyone here with such an argument  

Your OP was so stupid that the gif was the only viable reply. You don't deserve "discuss" starting FUD.

What is the FUD exactly? A private company intended to make a profit actually hires most Core devs which put them in a clear conflict of interest is actually a FACT. Prove me wrong.  

actually??  Mike? is that you?   Wanna start FUD?

It's not a FACT, whats a FACT is that Mike has consulted with In-Q-TEL and Gavin had a "chat with the nice folks at the cia"

Like I said, if they powers that be can't shut down bitcoin, unless they wanna shut down TCP/IP, but what they can do is take over the development team.


I trust Adam Back and Peter Todd way WAYYYYYY more than Mike and Gavin!

I don't trust any one of these people. Core and XT developers included. I only trust an open code that can stand on its own and that the market will be free to choose. Just like we didn't have to trust Satoshi in the first place. Putting your trust in any devs at all is the wrong way to go.

Apparently not to all the XT Gavenites (peace be up on his name) like yourself

[Denker]

I read about that Blockstream agenda and yes there could be something true behind that. Why otherwise the reason not to increase the blocksize. I wouldn't like that.

But I also don't like what XT is doing.

So what ever choices I have? None it seems

One party tries to make money on sidechains and force Bitcoin to be a kind of settlement system. And the other party tries to take away all the freedom Bitcoin gave us.

This is like to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Awesome!

[knight22]

I read about that Blockstream agenda and yes there could be something true behind that. Why otherwise the reason not to increase the blocksize. I wouldn't like that.

But I also don't like what XT is doing.

So what ever choices I have? None it seems

One party tries to make money on sidechains and force Bitcoin to be a kind of settlement system. And the other party tries to take away all the freedom Bitcoin gave us.

This is like to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Awesome!

Care to explain how XT take away the freedom if XT can only be implemented by the freedom of the market to ultimately choose it?

[slaveforanunnak1]

I read about that Blockstream agenda and yes there could be something true behind that. Why otherwise the reason not to increase the blocksize. I wouldn't like that.

But I also don't like what XT is doing.

So what ever choices I have? None it seems

One party tries to make money on sidechains and force Bitcoin to be a kind of settlement system. And the other party tries to take away all the freedom Bitcoin gave us.

This is like to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Awesome!

you can't have it both! at least, for now....
Please try to read this. it will explain why you can't have both right now. you do have to pick one.
http://wallstreettechnologist.com/2015/08/19/bitcoin-xt-vs-core-blocksize-limit-the-schism-that-divides-us-all/

[slaveforanunnak1]

I read about that Blockstream agenda and yes there could be something true behind that. Why otherwise the reason not to increase the blocksize. I wouldn't like that.

But I also don't like what XT is doing.

So what ever choices I have? None it seems

One party tries to make money on sidechains and force Bitcoin to be a kind of settlement system. And the other party tries to take away all the freedom Bitcoin gave us.

This is like to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Awesome!

Care to explain how XT take away the freedom if XT can only be implemented by the freedom of the market to ultimately choose it?

when you use scare tactics to falsely herd people toward a solution that you chose and control, is not really "freedom of the market"
Thanks to you people, we now have an ill informed non-technical user base who have no idea wtf is going on, and all they know is  "gavin good! durrr" (peace be up on his name)

[knight22]

My point is also a good one, unlike yours. Mike is a friend of the state-paradigm. He will happily cooperate with anything any state asks him to, he has said as much in the past. Have fun using his coin.

Uh, no it isn't. It's amazing how you can think that because someone has different political views than you do, that they can be completely discredited.

I don't know enough about XT or Mike Hearn to comment about either; but your argument is absolutely horrible.

You're wrong. If Mike didn't let his political views influence his software development, there wouldn't be a problem. I'm not against XT because I disapprove of Mike Hearns favourite colour, it's because I disapprove of him using bitcoin to promote his political views.

Furthermore, the origianl point of the bitcoin project was to create an open access monetary system that is apolitical. Please, I'm begging you all, think through your arguments before you start typing because I really don't see why I should have to do all your thinking for you

The question is, how to achieve a social consensus without bringing politics at all? Is the answers relies only with market forces that bitcoin creates? If so does that mean any political debate is futile from the start? Is one can go without the other? The answer is pretty unclear to me...

[knight22]

I read about that Blockstream agenda and yes there could be something true behind that. Why otherwise the reason not to increase the blocksize. I wouldn't like that.

But I also don't like what XT is doing.

So what ever choices I have? None it seems

One party tries to make money on sidechains and force Bitcoin to be a kind of settlement system. And the other party tries to take away all the freedom Bitcoin gave us.

This is like to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea. Awesome!

Care to explain how XT take away the freedom if XT can only be implemented by the freedom of the market to ultimately choose it?

when you use scare tactics to falsely herd people toward a solution that you chose and control, is not really "freedom of the market"
Thanks to you people, we now have an ill informed non-technical user base who have no idea wtf is going on, and all they know is  "gavin good! durrr" (peace be up on his name)

It's not a scare tactics, the conflict of interest is a FACT. It does not mean the people in conflict have ills motives but that should be enough to put you in an uncomfortable position.

There is a reason why the opinion of any person in a conflict of interest is automatically disregarded in a court trial no matter his technical skills. Think about this.

[jonald_fyookball]

I assume Blockstream got their dollop of funding by breaking down how investors would eventually make bank. Has anyone seen such a document?

If it does constitute rent seeking (i.e. not adding value), then of course it's not viable. I would be stunned if the Blockstream devs were actually planning that, it's so clearly a non-starter. But then again, here we are debating whether or not Mike Hearn should be lead developer. 

Yes the title of the post was deliberately sensational and meant to provoke conversation.

I don't know if it's 'rent seeking' as you put it or would come with a huge first mover advantage, but as others have pointed out, there may be a conflict of interest and I think we at least deserve to know their plans in order to get an accurate picture of this block size debate.  

As you pointed out, the block size needs to increase, yet evey blockstream developer is calling for the size to not increase, so I feel this line of questioning should be explored.

[valiz]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

[knight22]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

[Carlton Banks]

I assume Blockstream got their dollop of funding by breaking down how investors would eventually make bank. Has anyone seen such a document?

If it does constitute rent seeking (i.e. not adding value), then of course it's not viable. I would be stunned if the Blockstream devs were actually planning that, it's so clearly a non-starter. But then again, here we are debating whether or not Mike Hearn should be lead developer. 

Yes the title of the post was deliberately sensational and meant to provoke conversation.

It's possible you went too far, I lost a little respect for you. But we're running on extra adrenaline because of this debate, it's not so egregious in that context.

I don't know if it's 'rent seeking' as you put it or would come with a huge first mover advantage, but as others have pointed out, there may be a conflict of interest and I think we at least deserve to know their plans in order to get an accurate picture of this block size debate.  

As you pointed out, the block size needs to increase, yet evey blockstream developer is calling for the size to not increase, so I feel this line of questioning should be explored.

I agree, these are well made points. I recently asked gmaxwell when the details of the infrastructure behind Blockstream would be released (i.e. these are side-chains, so surely miners will process the transactions on them?). Unfortunately, he did not reply (possibly because he couldn't give a definitive answer at that stage, but I don't know).  

[valiz]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

[knight22]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

[Carlton Banks]

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

It's strange isn't it, as soon as Hearn and gang begin to push their changes, the health of bitcoin begins to deteriorate. They're doing it for your own good though! It's got to get worse before it gets better, right?!

[slaveforanunnak1]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

Honest question? are you perfectly comfortable to follow two guys who have  connections to InQTel and the CIA?  
wake the fuck up ... or shill on.. which ever you are doing.

[knight22]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

Honest question? are you perfeclty comfortable to follow two guys who have  connections to InQTel and the CIA?   
wake the fuck up ... or shill on.. which ever you are doing.

I did answered to that one if you only dared to read the whole conversation.

[slaveforanunnak1]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

Honest question? are you perfeclty comfortable to follow two guys who have  connections to InQTel and the CIA?   
wake the fuck up ... or shill on.. which ever you are doing.

I did answered to that one if you only dared to read the whole conversation.

so yes.. you are fully aware and just dont care

[valiz]

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

It's strange isn't it, as soon as Hearn and gang begin to push their changes, the health of bitcoin begins to deteriorate. They're doing it for your own good though! It's got to get worse before it gets better, right?!

Save it by destroying it.

The gullible are living in Bitcoin vs Paypal, VISA, MC payment lala-land and they help them out with their agenda.

Eventually the masses of users will become careless enough and they will succeed. Even if XT fails, XT2 or XT3 will succeed in taking down bitcoin.  

[knight22]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

Honest question? are you perfeclty comfortable to follow two guys who have  connections to InQTel and the CIA?   
wake the fuck up ... or shill on.. which ever you are doing.

I did answered to that one if you only dared to read the whole conversation.

so yes.. you are fully aware and just dont care

I do care but I also think that giving the choice to the market about the implementation makes irrelevant who the devs are and what are their motives. Without fully supporting XT it is this exact reason why I am happy that it is there.

[slaveforanunnak1]

The XT shills are growing in numbers and are becoming worse than those political propaganda dudes on TV or those paid commenters on the internet.

Just repeating their logical fallacies over and over until they get into your head to change your mind. Basic propaganda tactics. Repeat, repeat repeat. Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil Blockstream evil. Got it?

So what??? It seems they are doing the best job at bitcoin development anyway. Has it ocurred to you XT shills that improving bitcoin is in their best interest?

You don't care about arguments or facts. You have a script and you implement it. Repeat repeat repeat. XT good Core evil.

At least we will learn something of this: If XT succeeds, then any crypto can be destroyed by sheer mass propaganda.  

Do you have any argument at all? Because don't see any.

At this point, I don't have more time to waste with you XT hardcore supporters. Any argument I would present would be ignored. You are past the point of no return. It is impossible to convince you otherwise.

And you have grown very adept at diversionary tactics. Let's say I make a good point. But next thing you jump and shout that I'm retarded or I'm working for Blockstream or something and I need to prove otherwise. Diversion is another great weapon of propaganda. Congratulations!

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

Honest question? are you perfeclty comfortable to follow two guys who have  connections to InQTel and the CIA?   
wake the fuck up ... or shill on.. which ever you are doing.

I did answered to that one if you only dared to read the whole conversation.

so yes.. you are fully aware and just dont care

I do care but I also think that giving the choice to the market about the implementation makes irrelevant who the devs are and what are their motives. Without fully supporting XT it is this exact reason why I am happy that it is there.

YOU JUST SAID:

So basically you are perfectly comfortable with the fact that a private company hires most of the Core devs? Honest question.

AHHAHAHAHAH you just contradicted yourself you silly man