If you know for sure that NSA/CIA... are watching bitcointalk.org will U use it!

[point0]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

[1715687579]

1715687579

[1715687579]

1715687579

[1715687579]

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[1715687579]

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[Chiken]

The NSA is watching everything and everyone lol.. I really wouldn't care because I'm not doing anything illegal here (or anywhere). If they wanna watch me watch porn, then they can knock themselves out  

[DannyHamilton]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

[Chiken]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Why would they be watching them?

[--Encrypted--]

of course (like we didn't know that already). people wouldn't be using VPN or tor if they didn't think so.

[point0]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Why would they be watching them?

Maybe because they are so cool?!

[hedgy73]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

[point0]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

What if bitcoin is wrong and you are supporting it!

[tvbcof]

Of course.  I got involved when Bitcoin helped Wikileaks skirt the visa/paypal blockade.  I figured that anyone having anything to do with Bitcoin was of significant interest to the intelligence agencies by that time if not before.

Indeed, I assume that pretty much anything I do on-line at all (and a lot I do off-line) is monitored by the NSA and stored indefinitely, and I made that assumption prior to Snowden.  If one has worked in security it is natural to assume the worst as a design criteria even though it is not normally the case.  One has to make this assumption in order to come up with robust designs.

[Chiken]

of course (like we didn't know that already). people wouldn't be using VPN or tor if they didn't think so.

Really?. I'm new on this site and I'm not 100% sure if you're being sarcastic or actually being serious  

Should I use TOR to come here from now on or something?

[hedgy73]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

What if bitcoin is wrong and you are supporting it!

It's not and I am. I'm a normal working class person with an interest in cryptocurrency.

[point0]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

What if bitcoin is wrong and you are supporting it!

It's not and I am. I'm a normal working class person with an interest in cryptocurrency.

Ah! ok than im sure they will read this and delete you from their watchlist , as long as you are just a normal working class person.

[hedgy73]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

What if bitcoin is wrong and you are supporting it!

It's not and I am. I'm a normal working class person with an interest in cryptocurrency.

Ah! ok than im sure they will read this and delete you from their watchlist , as long as you are just a normal working class person.

I couldn't give a fuck if they do or not. I'm not doing anything wrong either way, they can knock on my door anytime they want.

[jonald_fyookball]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

cool.my NSA status used to be 'fat and unimportant' but you give me hope that will change.

[hedgy73]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

cool.my NSA status used to be 'fat and unimportant' but you give me hope that will change.

Ha ha hopefully mine will be 'fit and important' which couldn't be further than the truth .

[BurtW]

Homeland Security is watching this site and they have homeland security agents, confidential informants and cooperating witnesses monitoring and posting to this site.  That is a fact.

Many of my posts and many posts in discussions I had on this forum were placed into evidence against me before I was arrested.

I couldn't give a fuck if they do or not. I'm not doing anything wrong either way, they can knock on my door anytime they want.

Big talk.  Be careful what you wish for.

It's not and I am. I'm a normal working class person with an interest in cryptocurrency.

So was I.  About $300,000 later I know first hand how they treat "working class person with an interest in cryptocurrency" if they think you have assets they think they can get away with seizing.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

Several agents approached me outside my office, immediately took my phone, cuffed me and then took me to a waiting vehicle.  I did not have time to ask them in for tea at my office.  They then took me to my house where about 35 agents were tearing it apart looking for assets to seize.  I tried to make them tea at my home but it was too difficult to do in handcuffs.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

The NSA, CIA and FBI were not involved in my case.  It is Homeland Security, the US postal service, the US marshals service and a few others you need to be concerned about.

The NSA is watching everything and everyone lol.. I really wouldn't care because I'm not doing anything illegal here (or anywhere). If they wanna watch me watch porn, then they can knock themselves out  

I also used to believe in the tooth fairy but a couple nights in solitary confinement in a Federal detention center help me see reality.

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

I know they are watching me and I am here.

For more information see:

http://www.jmwagner.com/

http://www.burtw.com/

[Alley]

I got nothing to hide.  I don't do anything illegal with bitcoin.  They watch everything anyway.  If they want to know what kind of porn I watch I can save them the trouble.  Lesbians.

[DannyHamilton]

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

The NSA, CIA and FBI were not involved in my case.  It is Homeland Security, the US postal service, the US marshals service and a few others you need to be concerned about.

I'm sure there are many departments that are monitoring this forum, reddit, and other bitcoin related activites as well. Some of those departments might communicate with others, some may not. While the NSA, CIA, and FBI did not feel a need to get involved directly in your case, they very well may be monitoring things.

By the way, if you ever happen to be in the Chicago area, let me know.  Maybe we can get together for a drink or a meal.  I'd love to have a chance to sit and talk with you a bit.

[hedgy73]

Hey BurtW,

Thanks for the heads up and I'm sorry for the trouble you went through.

I'm a normal working class man with a poorly paid job and about 1btc to my name, if they want to knock on my door they can.

[point0]

I see lots of feer and problems   too bad anyways someone want everything under his controll Sorry guys his name is "Satan"

[hedgy73]

I see lots of feer and problems  too bad

Yes, of course. Go and troll elsewhere.

[point0]

I see lots of feer and problems  too bad

Yes, of course. Go and troll elsewhere.

Thats exactly what im gonna do.

[BurtW]

I got nothing to hide.  I don't do anything illegal with bitcoin.  They watch everything anyway.  If they want to know what kind of porn I watch I can save them the trouble.  Lesbians.

They don't give a crap about porn unless you do kiddie and you have assets to seize.  It's assets, assets, assets.

I'm sure there are many departments that are monitoring this forum, reddit, and other bitcoin related activites as well. Some of those departments might communicate with others, some may not. While the NSA, CIA, and FBI did not feel a need to get involved directly in your case, they very well may be monitoring things.

There was quite a lot of paperwork involved in getting the warrant to put the tracker on my car.  I expect there is even more paperwork to bring in something from the NSA or CIA into a case like mine and they get almost everything they need directly from the companies under their thumb with a lot less paperwork.  For example, my cell phone carrier (Sprint, but that does not matter they will all do it) coughed up every phone number in and out of my phone and every text sent and received even the texts that I deleted.  So I expect that unless there is a very good reason they don't bother with the extra effort needed to bring in the recordings we all know they keep of every phone conversation etc.

By the way, if you ever happen to be in the Chicago area, let me know.  Maybe we can get together for a drink or a meal.  I'd love to have a chance to sit and talk with you a bit.

Likewise if you are ever in Boulder let's get together.

BTW

I will be giving a talk entitled "BurtW - Arrested for Trading Bitcoins" in the Denver/Boulder area.  Here is my current speaking schedule:

Libertarian Lunch
Thursday, September 10, 2015
12:30 PM
Carelli's Restaurant, 645 30th Street, Boulder
Libertarian Party of Boulder County

Colorado Bitcoin Society Monthly Meetup
Monday, September 14, 2015
6:00 PM
Southern Hospitality, 1433 17th Street, Denver
Colorado Bitcoin Society

Republican Breakfast
Wednesday, October 7, 2015
7:00 AM
The Plaza Conference Center, 1850 Industrial Cir, Longmont
Reservations:  Rebekah Vicknair

[hedgy73]

If you dont mind me asking BurtW how much money were they after you for?

[tvbcof]

I got nothing to hide.  I don't do anything illegal with bitcoin.  They watch everything anyway.  If they want to know what kind of porn I watch I can save them the trouble.  Lesbians.

They don't give a crap about porn unless you do kiddie and you have assets to seize.  It's assets, assets, assets.

I'm sure there are many departments that are monitoring this forum, reddit, and other bitcoin related activites as well. Some of those departments might communicate with others, some may not. While the NSA, CIA, and FBI did not feel a need to get involved directly in your case, they very well may be monitoring things.

There was quite a lot of paperwork involved in getting the warrant to put the tracker on my car.  I expect there is even more paperwork to bring in something from the NSA or CIA into a case like mine and they get almost everything they need directly from the companies under their thumb with a lot less paperwork.  For example, my cell phone carrier (Sprint, but that does not matter they will all do it) coughed up every phone number in and out of my phone and every text sent and received even the texts that I deleted.  So I expect that unless there is a very good reason they don't bother with the extra effort needed to bring in the recordings we all know they keep of every phone conversation etc.

Glad to see you back, and it's nice to hear some seemingly high quality info as a debrief.

I figure that 'parallel construction' is a tool which is used more often than some might think, but even that has to be a serious hassle and fraught with risk so it's probably used less often than others think.

In other news, my dear old friend cypherdoc seems to have gone dark, at least here on trolltalk.  Do you suppose he retained the same attorney who provided you with what sounds it was probably sage advice about keeping one's mouth shut?  That's got to be a tough row to hoe for a guy like Dr. Lowelife.

[BurtW]

If you dont mind me asking BurtW how much money were they after you for?

Well it turns out the "justice" system is more about "let's make a deal" than anything to do with justice.

From the moment I was arrested until they dropped the charges it felt more like a real estate deal than anything else.

First we discussed a me pleading to a "lessor felony" - I said no.
Then we discussed pleading guilty to a misdemeanor - I said no.

At this point I did not like the direction of my attorney and the law firm and they didn't know a Bitcoin from a hole in the ground.  I had already spent $25,000 - a lot of it explaining to them what Bitcoins are how they work etc.  So, my wife found me a new law firm that knew what Bitcoins are and more importantly is in California.   Why does that matter?  I am glad you asked.  In order to get any kind of adversarial activity from your attorney you must get one that does not deal with the same prosecutor day in and day out.  An attorney from a law firm in Denver can't be too adversarial with the prosecutor because they know that they will be dealing with the same prosecutor next month, next year and they need to be able to maintain rapport in order to cut the deals for their (guilty) clients that is their bread and butter.

Things went better with my new attorney:

They offered to drop all charges for a forfeiture of, if I remember correctly, $160,000.
I countered, they countered, we countered, etc. and finally settled on a payment of $80,000 half in cash and half in Bitcoin.

For this they dropped both the criminal case against me and the civil cases against all the property they seized from me.

This was a bargain since it was estimated that going to trial on the criminal case was going to cost me between $75,000 and $100,000 and going to trail on the civil case against my stuff was going to cost me a minimum of $50,000.  And, of course, it was not a forgone conclusion that I would win either or both of the cases.

So they dropped the charges and I got everything else (computers, phones, boxes of financial records, the rest of my Bitcoins, etc.) back.

[BurtW]

In other news, my dear old friend cypherdoc seems to have gone dark, at least here on trolltalk.  Do you suppose he retained the same attorney who provided you with what sounds it was probably sage advice about keeping one's mouth shut?  That's got to be a tough row to hoe for a guy like Dr. Lowelife.

Anyone with an active case will go dark.  I worry about DeathAndTaxes, he has been dark for a long time.

[tvbcof]

In other news, my dear old friend cypherdoc seems to have gone dark, at least here on trolltalk.  Do you suppose he retained the same attorney who provided you with what sounds it was probably sage advice about keeping one's mouth shut?  That's got to be a tough row to hoe for a guy like Dr. Lowelife.

Anyone with an active case will go dark.  I worry about DeathAndTaxes, he has been dark for a long time.

Yes, he seemed to know the rules and seemed to play by them if his writings here were semi-accurate representations of his behavior.  As someone who tried to do likewise it causes me some concern.  I never did any buying and selling except through Tradehole and Coinbase and was anal about paying my taxes so I hope I don't have much to worry about.

Fuckin' pisses me off that the state are such blatant extortionists that it would make a guy in my situation feel concerned.  I've seen first hand people unjustly push the power of the state around in an unrelated event having to do with the DEQ.  Like you say, what actually did or didn't happen or what is or isn't a problem is utterly irrelevant...it's about whether you have money that can be squeeze out, and what it would cost in court to defend yourself.  It's deeply wrong and disturbing, but there it is.  Ultimately they will push to many people to far I'd guess.  That's probably why so many agencies are developing their own militarized enforcement capabilities.

I delight in pointing out to my friends that the first time the FBI did anything of consequence in Bitcoinland (Silk Road) they immediately stole the loot for personal gain.  What is the point of having state sponsorship of enforcement if they are as big a crooks as any and empowered by that sponsorship?

[Quickseller]

Then we discussed pleading guilty to a misdemeanor - I said no.

You must have balls of steal. Regardless of guilt or innocence, I think the vast majority of people would have plead guilty to a misdemeanor (especially if the deal involved no jail time) if they were facing the charges you were facing.

Sometimes it is a good idea to take a small loss in order to avoid the prospect of many years behind bars. I am not saying this is a good feature of our country's judicial system (I don't think it is), however it is an unfortunate fact of life.

They offered to drop all charges for a forfeiture of, if I remember correctly, $160,000.
I countered, they countered, we countered, etc. and finally settled on a payment of $80,000 half in cash and half in Bitcoin.

In other words, they were extorting you for $160,000 but let you go for $80,000?

I really don't see how it could possibly be legal for them to be negotiating with you to drop the charges in exchange for you to drop the claim against your property which would allow them to keep a portion of your property.

If the DA believes you are guilty, and believes they can prove it then they should take you to trial; if they do not then they should drop the charges. I don't see what how much of your property the government gets to keep has to do with your guilt or innocence. If the conversation really was something along the lines of that the government would drop the charges on the condition that you would not oppose the seizure of $80,000, then I cannot see how that can be anything other then extortion.

I believe that discussions regarding if charges should/would be dropped should be something along the lines of that there is strong evidence the defendant is innocent, and/or there is little enough evidence that a defendant is guilty so that a guilty verdict is highly unlikely and the above is not based on some technicality (e.g. incrementing evidence is thrown out, evidence is not allowed because of an inadvertent mistake in collecting such evidence, etc.).

edit: I also believe that discussions regarding pleading to a lower charge should involve something along the lines of the fact that you are honest enough about your crimes to admit to them so you get a lesser punishment as a result and/or the government has sufficient evidence to convict you of your charges, however it would be very expensive to bring your case to trial, so in exchange for avoiding a trial you get a lesser punishment and/or there is sufficient evidence to convict you, however bringing your case to trial would cause one (or more) witnesses to have to go through significant trauma/pain in testifying against you and in exchange for allowing them to avoid this you get a lesser punishment.
/edit

I am curious to see/know what evidence they has presented to be used against you, especially forum posts.

(Hopefully you can get a chuckle out of this) Did you at least get tickets to the police ball?

[Elwar]

Is it on the Internet? Then the NSA is watching it.

Or you can just go to meetups and talk in person. Though if there is one guy there that has a really short haircut and is pretty physically fit for a computer geek and seems very interested in getting peoples' personal information...then they're watching that meeting too.

[desired_username]

They don't have to watch it. They only need to ask theymos for the db or any information they require.

[point0]

They don't have to watch it. They only need to ask theymos for the db or any information they require.

HAHAHA, maybe 

[Kprawn]

This is the thing, if you are not a USA citizen.... Why would you want a foreign agency to browse around in your financial matters? Mike Hearn tend to forget that Bitcoin is a global currency, and his backdoors he is

coding into Bitcoin for these USA agencies, are not welcomed by other nations. They choose not to live in a police state for a reason, why would they use a currency if that currency infringe on their foreign interest?

They have no right to spy on people outside of the USA anyway. Once they enter the borders of the USA it's a whole other story. If you lived in the USA and you get spied on by another country, would you mind?

Same for Bitcointalk... if you live in another country, and you do nothing to harm US citizens, they should leave you alone. I have nothing to hide but my right to have financial privacy.  

[lahm-44]

cartoon network O.o why the hell will they will watch me?iss they are going to realize a series on me? well anyways nasa is always watching everyone..but I don't think he has time for watching me doing cheap tricks or helping anyone here on bitcointalk lol

[Digit-0]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

im pretty sure that they have been doing it since long time agoo, dont forget that this is his job, i mean to recover information, but even if they are doing it i will never care, i have nothing to hide and from my point of view we are not doing nothing bad here, so i fell really safe

They don't have to watch it. They only need to ask theymos for the db or any information they require.

HAHAHA, maybe  

just LOL xD

[NorrisK]

This is the thing, if you are not a USA citizen.... Why would you want a foreign agency to browse around in your financial matters? Mike Hearn tend to forget that Bitcoin is a global currency, and his backdoors he is

coding into Bitcoin for these USA agencies, are not welcomed by other nations. They chose not to live in a police state for a reason, why would they use a currency if that currency infringe on their foreign interest?

They have no right to spy on people outside of the USA anyway. Once they enter the borders of the USA it's a whole other story. If you lived in the USA and you get spied on by another country, would you mind? 

You know that unless you hide your tracks extremely carefully, everybody has insight in your personal bitcoin wealth? Everything is public and can be tracked..

[Xialla]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

you don't need any proof. if you are using "standart" internet without cryptography, tunnels, certificates and proxies, you should behave like "they are watching me right now" all the time, when you are online.

so yes, you can apply this even on this forum..welcome to 2015:(

[Kprawn]

This is the thing, if you are not a USA citizen.... Why would you want a foreign agency to browse around in your financial matters? Mike Hearn tend to forget that Bitcoin is a global currency, and his backdoors he is

coding into Bitcoin for these USA agencies, are not welcomed by other nations. They chose not to live in a police state for a reason, why would they use a currency if that currency infringe on their foreign interest?

They have no right to spy on people outside of the USA anyway. Once they enter the borders of the USA it's a whole other story. If you lived in the USA and you get spied on by another country, would you mind? 

You know that unless you hide your tracks extremely carefully, everybody has insight in your personal bitcoin wealth? Everything is public and can be tracked..

Yes, that is exactly my point... you do not want the whole world to know your financial wealth. {This include hackers & thiefs etc. etc.}

I do not go into too much detail to hide my real identity, because it's a waste of time. The big brothers of this world have enough tools to follow you on the internet, no matter what you do. {VPN's, Tor etc...}

Just keep it legal and they should not need to track you individually. You still have the right to protect your money matters from thiefs... and that is where I draw the line, with whoever is watching.

This is no different from you trying to do that with your cash or with online transactions you do with other payment options. {PayPal, Credit cards ...}

If you doing something illegal, you should be worried... Bitcointalk does not protect your privacy and it's not a platform to commit crimes.... We discuss Bitcoin matters here.

[BurtW]

i have nothing to hide and from my point of view we are not doing nothing bad here, so i fell really safe

If you doing something illegal, you should be worried... Bitcointalk does not protect your privacy and it's not a platform to commit crimes.... We discuss Bitcoin matters here.

What if there is a law out there, a Federal felony that carries up to five years in Federal prison and a $250,000 fine, that you do not know you are violating?  

What if this law is so esoteric that when you are arrested your top notch $500 per hour Federal criminal attorney has to look it up because he has never heard of it?

What if said law was modified by Marshal Law (the "Patriot" act) to allow Civil Asset Forfeiture to apply in your case.

What if said law is one of the handful of Federal felonies that has no requirement of intent on the part of the defendant?  In other words not intending to break said law is not a defense.

What if you and your family are investigated by Homeland Security for 18 months, whatever "evidence" they collect, concoct, or flat out lie about is taken to a grand jury?  Said testimony is forever sealed so that neither you or your attorney ever get to see it (unless you go to trial) - thus allowing them to concoct or flat out lie with impunity?

As an example what if one of the lead investigators/experts that testifies states that it is his belief that "there are little or no legitimate uses for Bitcoins", hypothetically of course.

What is said secret sealed indictment is then used to generate a secret sealed search warrant for your home and business?

What if the Feds then execute said secret sealed search warrant and take all of your cash, bitcoins, computers, all of your personal financial records and all of your corporate financial records and anything else they can get their hands on?  Now, all of the stuff they take is assumed to be guilty of a crime and it is up to you to hire an attorney to prove that your stuff is innocent of any crimes - or they get to keep it all?

No, I guess you are right, you have nothing to worry about since you have read and fully understand all Federal, State and local laws.  Good for you.

[jonald_fyookball]

What if the Feds then execute said secret sealed search warrant and take all of your cash, bitcoins, computers, all of your personal financial records and all of your corporate financial records and anything else they can get their hands on?  Now, all of the stuff they take is assumed to be guilty of a crime and it is up to you to hire an attorney to prove that your stuff is innocent of any crimes - or they get to keep it all?
 

Thanks Burt for warning us to the dangers.  Did they seize bank accounts too?

[Carlton Banks]

Just keep it legal and they should not need to track you individually. You still have the right to protect your money matters from thiefs... and that is where I draw the line, with whoever is watching.

Would you include the people that extorted Burt in that category?

[BurtW]

Thanks Burt for warning us to the dangers.  Did they seize bank accounts too?

In my case no.

During their investigation they had asked for and received the last four years of statements from every bank account they could tie to me, my wife and my businesses.  All of this generated hundreds of pages in their evidence file against me.  They went through every transaction in all accounts and pulled out a few transactions they thought interesting as "evidence".

However I am not rich and that shows in my bank account balances they had right there in evidence so they did not think it worth seizing.  What they did assume from my low bank account balances was that "he must have a very large stash of cash and Bitcoins somewhere", hence the tracker on my car (to help them locate my secret stash) and the huge raid on my home and corporate offices to find and seize the assumed millions in Bitcoins and cash.

My daughter laughs about it some saying "they came looking for lots of money and lots of drugs but all they found was lots of my toys"

[MF Doom]

Is it on the Internet? Then the NSA is watching it.

Or you can just go to meetups and talk in person. Though if there is one guy there that has a really short haircut and is pretty physically fit for a computer geek and seems very interested in getting peoples' personal information...then they're watching that meeting too.

That about sums up the point snowden was trying to get across, they want to at the very least collect EVERYTHING, and store it in one of the new "data centers" being built.  That way anything you have ever said/done can be accessed by the nsa...

And thanks for the tip about how to keep an eye out for shills in person...

[Kprawn]

BurtW ....What happened to you and your family is a injustice and should not have happened. It's becoming more clear that you were targeted to make a statement.

Someone with less resources, would have had to plead guilty... because they would not have been in a position to pay for expensive respresentation. I am just saying, not all members are from the USA and

are from other countries, without these US laws. These people should not be targetted by these agencies. It's going to happen and we should not sit back and accept it... if you a law abiding citizen in your

country, they should leave you alone. We live in different coutries with different laws and the USA does not need to regulate the whole world. I feel sorry for the people who has to suffer this kind of injustice, but in

many countries it is even worst.      

[Herbert2020]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

i don't see why not!!
since i am not doing any criminal activity and not planning on doing any criminal activity, so i don't care. let them watch me

[MF Doom]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

i don't see why not!!
since i am not doing any criminal activity and not planning on doing any criminal activity, so i don't care. let them watch me

thats the mindset of most people I've talked to about the nsa, "if i'm not doing anything wrong then they can spy on me all they want"

Well, 2 things to consider:  Do you value privacy?  If not, then would you hand over your emails & passwords to complete strangers?  I doubt it.

Secondly, do you value how your tax dollars are spent?  Do you really like the idea of busting you butt, only to have billions of tax dollars spent to monitor your every waking moment and piece of communication?  I doubt it!

[BurtW]

Someone with less resources, would have had to plead guilty... because they would not have been in a position to pay for expensive respresentation.  

I was arrested in a big inter-agency (HSI, DEA, US Marshals, USPS, BATF, etc.) task force operation called "Operation Avalanche".  Several others were arrested that same weekend.  I believe that all the others arrested either had public defenders or possibly less qualified attorneys.  It is not an "apples to apples comparison because other cases involved drugs - mine did not and other cases involved money laundering - mine did not.  I don't know the current up to date disposition of their cases but here is the status of their cases as of July 15:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934268.msg11890239#msg11890239

Don't even get me started on the whole public defender thing.  Here is a taste:

Follow the money, who pays them?  
So, who do they actually work for?  
Who are they beholden to?  
Who can or can't they afford to offend?
What is their actual job?  
Hint:  actually defending the accused against the accusation is not it.

[BurtW]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

i don't see why not!!
since i am not doing any criminal activity and not planning on doing any criminal activity, so i don't care. let them watch me

Did you read anything I have said in this thread?  Or did you just come in here and drop your steaming pile of opinion on us?

Try this one, just one of many I am sure:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/4

I especially like the "as soon as possible" part.  What you took time to get to a safe location first?  GUILTY.

PAY UP or it will be three years for you buddy.

[Herbert2020]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

i don't see why not!!
since i am not doing any criminal activity and not planning on doing any criminal activity, so i don't care. let them watch me

thats the mindset of most people I've talked to about the nsa, "if i'm not doing anything wrong then they can spy on me all they want"

Well, 2 things to consider:  Do you value privacy?  If not, then would you hand over your emails & passwords to complete strangers?  I doubt it.

AFAIK unless Theymos(?) is an agent of nsa or whatever place they don't have access to my email and / or password. besides i will never use my main email in any forum because of the possibility of spam.

Secondly, do you value how your tax dollars are spent?  Do you really like the idea of busting you butt, only to have billions of tax dollars spent to monitor your every waking moment and piece of communication?  I doubt it!

if they are spying on bitcointalk users then it would be US citizens tax dollars not mine

[BurtW]

AFAIK unless Theymos(?) is an agent of nsa or whatever place they don't have access to my email and / or password. besides i will never use my main email in any forum because of the possibility of spam.

You need to do a little research on this topic:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-forum-bitcointalk-org-receives-answers-first-subpoena-doj/

I'm writing just to let you know that I was forced to release your deleted post(s) due to a subpoena by the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York

http://bitcoinist.net/bitcointalk-court-ordered-release-butterfly-labs-messages/

This week, Bitcointalk administrator Theymos, contacted every participant in several discussions over the Butterfly Labs case. The reason for this contact was a court decision in which the Bitcointalk admin was forced to reveal information regarding the case.

[Timzim103]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

What if bitcoin is wrong and you are supporting it!

Well, your original question was about bitcointalk members being watched by agents of a rather eclectic list of agents, not that Bitcoin was "wrong". Either way, my take is that Bitcoin is an interesting, innovative technology, so it goes without say that it and its community would draw interest. As for your second point, I think most people don't want to be on the wrong side of the law, myself included. I'm not religious or philosophical about cryptos. I would no more risk prison for that than I would for a gizmo such as my cell phone if it were made illegal.

[Kazimir]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

Yes, of course. Everybody can watch any Bitcoin or bitcointalk activity. So that includes the NSA / FBI / Cartoon network. That's fine, Bitcoin is supposed to be transparent. Let them see how great Bitcoin works!

[Bagatell]

In other news, my dear old friend cypherdoc seems to have gone dark, at least here on trolltalk.  Do you suppose he retained the same attorney who provided you with what sounds it was probably sage advice about keeping one's mouth shut?  That's got to be a tough row to hoe for a guy like Dr. Lowelife.

Anyone with an active case will go dark.  I worry about DeathAndTaxes, he has been dark for a long time.

Goats awol too.

[MF Doom]

AFAIK unless Theymos(?) is an agent of nsa or whatever place they don't have access to my email and / or password. besides i will never use my main email in any forum because of the possibility of spam.

You need to do a little research on this topic:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-forum-bitcointalk-org-receives-answers-first-subpoena-doj/

I'm writing just to let you know that I was forced to release your deleted post(s) due to a subpoena by the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York

Wow, so this not only confirms the fact that this (and in all likelihood all forums) are monitored and subject to searches by the feds.  If you think otherwise then you haven't been paying attention to much in the news.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter who the admins are of this forum or others, or what email you use.  They have dragnet surveillance systems designed to capture any and all communications they possibly can.  It's even come out they have physically intercepted packages to insert tracking hardware on some machines.

And so what if theymos didn't comply?  Probably the same thing that happened to lavabit when they didn't want to comply with the feds demands:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/20/why-did-lavabit-shut-down-snowden-email

[BurtW]

I think most people don't want to be on the wrong side of the law, myself included. I'm not religious or philosophical about cryptos. I would no more risk prison for that than I would for a gizmo such as my cell phone if it were made illegal.

Have you, or anyone else reading this, ever read anything on here that looked like it might be shady or illegal?
Did you immediately report it to the authorities?

NO?  Then you are on the "wrong side" of this law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/4

[Pathi]

What's really scary about the BurtW situation is even after the charges were dropped they got 80k from him.

[jonald_fyookball]

What's really scary about the BurtW situation is even after the charges were dropped they got 80k from him.

My understanding is that's why the charges were dropped. 

[Carlton Banks]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

Yes, of course. Everybody can watch any Bitcoin or bitcointalk activity. So that includes the NSA / FBI / Cartoon network. That's fine, Bitcoin is supposed to be transparent. Let them see how great Bitcoin works!

It's the Information Age, baby

Life is changing

[Mickeyb]

I don't see a problem with this, my personal info isn't connected to my user name. They can collect my IP address and that's all of it. So let them watch us and let them have fun with it!

[DannyHamilton]

- snip -

Did you read anything I have said in this thread?  Or did you just come in here and drop your steaming pile of opinion on us?
- snip -

BurtW,

Don't waste your time responding to people that are participating in a sig ad campaign.  They generally don't read the content of the thread, and make a minimal effort to even guess what the thread is even about.  Then they drop in an "opinion" so that it looks like they are making an actual contribution to conversation so that they can collect their pay from the ad campaign manager.

They don't really care what the thread is about, nor do they have any interest in any facts or details.  Responding to them just gives them an opportunity to blindly respond to your response to get additional posts in and make it look like they are participating in a conversation.

You're more likely to get well thought out logical discussions from a Colorado District Attorney than you are from someone participating in a signature ad campaign.

[MF Doom]

- snip -

Did you read anything I have said in this thread?  Or did you just come in here and drop your steaming pile of opinion on us?
- snip -

BurtW,

Don't waste your time responding to people that are participating in a sig ad campaign.  They generally don't read the content of the thread, and make a minimal effort to even guess what the thread is even about.  Then they drop in an "opinion" so that it looks like they are making an actual contribution to conversation so that they can collect their pay from the ad campaign manager.

They don't really care what the thread is about, nor do they have any interest in any facts or details.  Responding to them just gives them an opportunity to blindly respond to your response to get additional posts in and make it look like they are participating in a conversation.

You're more likely to get well thought out logical discussions from a Colorado District Attorney than you are from someone participating in a signature ad campaign.

not sure if you will see this or not, but as a participant in a sig campaign I think bulk blocking all sig campaign participants is a little extreme.

I posted for a long time before finding one to join, and will continue posting after the campaign ends.

I legitimately try to post strictly to the topic at hand, as I have here (aside from this).  I see what you say about a lot of low quality posting going on, but mass blocking doesn;t seem conducive to actual conversation.

[Bagatell]

Don't waste your time responding to people that are participating in a sig ad campaign.  

I need to give this some thought. But in the meantime Sig deleted. Did you add me to your list? Have you deleted me from your list?

[BitcoinNewsMagazine]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-networks/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U still use it!

Thank u.

You should be more concerned about the OS you are using.

[Mr.jatt]

That shouldn't be a problem to me.
I mean that I'm not using my real name as my username so they'll not find out who am I.

[BurtW]

BurtW,

Don't waste your time responding to people that are participating in a sig ad campaign.  They generally don't read the content of the thread, and make a minimal effort to even guess what the thread is even about.  Then they drop in an "opinion" so that it looks like they are making an actual contribution to conversation so that they can collect their pay from the ad campaign manager.

They don't really care what the thread is about, nor do they have any interest in any facts or details.  Responding to them just gives them an opportunity to blindly respond to your response to get additional posts in and make it look like they are participating in a conversation.

You're more likely to get well thought out logical discussions from a Colorado District Attorney than you are from someone participating in a signature ad campaign.

Yes, I know.  But sometime I, we all, get frustrated when we spend a large amount of time telling people what is and it gets buried under the whole signature campaign thing.

not sure if you will see this or not, but as a participant in a sig campaign I think bulk blocking all sig campaign participants is a little extreme.

I posted for a long time before finding one to join, and will continue posting after the campaign ends.

I legitimately try to post strictly to the topic at hand, as I have here (aside from this).  I see what you say about a lot of low quality posting going on, but mass blocking doesn;t seem conducive to actual conversation.

Yes, of course, not everyone abuses the sig campaigns.  I actually used to have one, Bitmixer if I recall, and maybe SWC back in the day.  I choose now to use that space for my own agenda but might someday use it again to raise some funds.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

i wonder if u got proofs that NSA/CIA/FBI/Cartoon-network/... are watching bitcointalk's members will U use it!

Thank u.

I have always assumed that NSA, CIA, FBI, are watching bitcointalk members.

I still use it, and I'm happy to announce to any of them exactly who I am and where to find me.

Same here buddy I'm not doing anything wrong either same as most on here. I'll make them a nice cup of tea if they knock on my door.

What if bitcoin is wrong and you are supporting it!

What do you mean "bitcoin is wrong"? Bitcoin it's what it is, the source is open, there's no possibility to not know what you are supporting, and it turns there is no way to hide stuff, we say it recently when XT tried to pass some anti privacy code.

[BurtW]

Back on topic:

Then we discussed pleading guilty to a misdemeanor - I said no.

You must have balls of steal. Regardless of guilt or innocence, I think the vast majority of people would have plead guilty to a misdemeanor (especially if the deal involved no jail time) if they were facing the charges you were facing.

I can't claim to have tungsten testicles but the deal involved them keeping all my Bitcoins and a lot of other conditions so that made it easier to say no.

Sometimes it is a good idea to take a small loss in order to avoid the prospect of many years behind bars. I am not saying this is a good feature of our country's judicial system (I don't think it is), however it is an unfortunate fact of life.

Agreed.  Live to fight another day...

They offered to drop all charges for a forfeiture of, if I remember correctly, $160,000.
I countered, they countered, we countered, etc. and finally settled on a payment of $80,000 half in cash and half in Bitcoin.

In other words, they were extorting you for $160,000 but let you go for $80,000?

If it looks like extortion and it smell like extortion and it sounds like...

I really don't see how it could possibly be legal for them to be negotiating with you to drop the charges in exchange for you to drop the claim against your property which would allow them to keep a portion of your property.

It is legal because I agreed to it.  Conceptually, legally, at least in theory, I could have always chosen to take the criminal and all the civil cases to trial, right? 

If the DA AUSA (Assistant United States Attorney - remember this is all Federal) believes you are guilty, and believes they can prove it then they should take you to trial; if they do not then they should drop the charges.

The AUSA and my attorney both agreed that the criminal case was a "coin toss" if sent to a jury.  We had a few pre-trial motions to try and assume they all failed the only thing left would have been:  Was what I was doing, trading Bitcoins on localbitcoins.com a business or not?  They claimed it was, we claimed it was not.  Since those wet noodles over at FinCEN did not define what constitutes a business as far a volume of transactions and/or volumes of trades and left it specifically ambiguous as "a matter of fact and circumstance" it would have been up to a jury to decide who was/is right.

BTW by not taking my case to trial this question has still not been decided.

I don't see what how much of your property the government gets to keep has to do with your guilt or innocence. If the conversation really was something along the lines of that the government would drop the charges on the condition that you would not oppose the seizure of $80,000, then I cannot see how that can be anything other then extortion.

Extortion certainly is one way to look at it.  But guilt or innocence of the charge, operating a money transmittal business without a licence, was not decided in my case.  In essence we agreed to disagree on the definition of what constitutes a business.

I believe that discussions regarding if charges should/would be dropped should be something along the lines of that there is strong evidence the defendant is innocent, and/or there is little enough evidence that a defendant is guilty so that a guilty verdict is highly unlikely and the above is not based on some technicality (e.g. incrementing evidence is thrown out, evidence is not allowed because of an inadvertent mistake in collecting such evidence, etc.).

Since I never disputed the fact, and still do not dispute the fact, that I did trade Bitcoins using the localbitcoins.com platform this case really never was about the evidence.  It was about the definition of what constitute a business.

edit: I also believe that discussions regarding pleading to a lower charge should involve something along the lines of the fact that you are honest enough about your crimes to admit to them so you get a lesser punishment as a result and/or the government has sufficient evidence to convict you of your charges, however it would be very expensive to bring your case to trial, so in exchange for avoiding a trial you get a lesser punishment and/or there is sufficient evidence to convict you, however bringing your case to trial would cause one (or more) witnesses to have to go through significant trauma/pain in testifying against you and in exchange for allowing them to avoid this you get a lesser punishment.
/edit

The entire process of the plea bargain is always sold as a time and money saver.  However, at its core, the process destroys the entire system and here is why:  If the cops and procecutors knew that every single person they arrested would be given an (expensive) fair trail before an (expensive) jury using qualified (expensive) attorneys on both sides then they would never in a million years be able to arrest, charge and jail as many people as they think they need to.  In other words they would be a lot more picky about who and what they did with their limited resources.  The plea bargain system allows them to churn more people through the system.

I am curious to see/know what evidence they has presented to be used against you, especially forum posts.

(Hopefully you can get a chuckle out of this) Did you at least get tickets to the police ball?

Yes, that was another funny, sad, infuriating, cop doing the wrong thing but thinking he actually is doing the guy a big favor video.  Well at least he did not shoot him.

[Kprawn]

BurtW,

Don't waste your time responding to people that are participating in a sig ad campaign.  They generally don't read the content of the thread, and make a minimal effort to even guess what the thread is even about.  Then they drop in an "opinion" so that it looks like they are making an actual contribution to conversation so that they can collect their pay from the ad campaign manager.

They don't really care what the thread is about, nor do they have any interest in any facts or details.  Responding to them just gives them an opportunity to blindly respond to your response to get additional posts in and make it look like they are participating in a conversation.

You're more likely to get well thought out logical discussions from a Colorado District Attorney than you are from someone participating in a signature ad campaign.

Yes, I know.  But sometime I, we all, get frustrated when we spend a large amount of time telling people what is and it gets buried under the whole signature campaign thing.

not sure if you will see this or not, but as a participant in a sig campaign I think bulk blocking all sig campaign participants is a little extreme.

I posted for a long time before finding one to join, and will continue posting after the campaign ends.

I legitimately try to post strictly to the topic at hand, as I have here (aside from this).  I see what you say about a lot of low quality posting going on, but mass blocking doesn;t seem conducive to actual conversation.

Yes, of course, not everyone abuses the sig campaigns.  I actually used to have one, Bitmixer if I recall, and maybe SWC back in the day.  I choose now to use that space for my own agenda but might someday use it again to raise some funds.

I really appreciate the way you see this whole signature campaign thing... there are loads of people who misuse the chance they get to earn a little extra money to post constructively on this forum.

I quickly spot them, and ignore them when I browse the threads... I do not add them to a ignore list, because they might have something constructive to say in other threads.

DannyHamilton is a bit extreme in his approach to this, but I respect his needs and I still value his inputs even though I am also added on his shit list. He is a excellent

contributor to this forum and I learn a lot from his contributions, even though I do not support the way he approach this whole signature campaign thing.

As a member of this forum, you still have the option to join whatever service is offered here... if that voids your opinion in some members eyes.. so be it.. they have rights too. {Like having a spam free experience}

I like to contribute and share what I have learned here and on other platforms and to learn from people like DannyHamilton.... if I get a little extra for my effort.. why not..

it's my time and my kids enjoy the extra pocket money I give to them, for the stuff I do here, when I am away from them.

BurtW... Did they reveal any methods or sources to you, on how they gathered evidence against you? Surely most of this evidence should have been acquired through

legal methods like subpoena and not through entrapment? { I did not see anything mentioned on this, from your other main thread on this subject? }  

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/24/we-need-geneva-convention-for-the-internet-says-new-un-privacy-chief  

[MoorChael]

Yes. I'm still going to use Bitcoin. I have nothing to fear, I'm not doing anything illegal.

[BurtW]

BurtW... Did they reveal any methods or sources to you, on how they gathered evidence against you? Surely most of this evidence should have been acquired through

legal methods like subpoena and not through entrapment? { I did not see anything mentioned on this, from your other main thread on this subject? }    

You bring up a very interesting topic.  Another one of those TV myths everyone believes.  The subject of entrapment.

tl;dr:  For all practical purposes there is no entrapment defense left.

Over time this defense has been slowly eroded by case after case.

In the old days a person had to actually do a crime.
Then they were allowed to entice and the suspect had to do the crime.

Now if they shove the crime down your throat and you do not immediately refuse and report it while it is being shoved down your throat they can use that against you.  Basically they can rape you and say you were asking for it.

In my case one of their undercover operatives solicited a large purchase of Bitcoins from me.  I suggested that we do it at my bank.  They refused (since it would blow their whole audio and video recording setup they had planned at the coffee shop).  So I said that I would prefer to do it at my bank but OK we can do it at the coffee shop.

Later I was told that it was not entrapment because the burden is on me to insisted on using the bank.

The entrapment defense is a thing of the past.  

A lot of "evidence" was collected through just asking for it:

They asked for and got all of my bank records for the last four years from every bank account of mine, my wife and my companies.
They asked for and got all of my phone records and all of my text messages (in and out and deleted).
They simply copied and pasted a lot of what I said on here.

Then they did a few undercover Bitcoin purchases which they followed me to, recorded, and then followed me from to see where I went next.

They put a tracker on my car to see where I went, who I met with, etc.

They interviewed some of my Bitcoin friends.  They were scared to death and one even cough up most of his Bitcoins to make them go away.

They distorted the truth to match their narrative of who they thought I was (huge drug lord with millions in cash and Bitcoin).  They, specifically the Homeland Security Agent in charge of investigating my case, were really hoping for a "Dread Pirate Roberts" size of bust for their resumes.

[BurtW]

Yes. I'm still going to use Bitcoin. I have nothing to fear, I'm not doing anything illegal.

How do you explain this one?  He does not have a signature campaign yet he still thinks it is OK to just jump into a thread without reading it?

[DannyHamilton]

Yes. I'm still going to use Bitcoin. I have nothing to fear, I'm not doing anything illegal.

How do you explain this one?  He does not have a signature campaign yet he still thinks it is OK to just jump into a thread without reading it?

Generally, I assume those are "newbies" that are trying to boost their "activity" to get their "rank" up to "Jr. Member" or "Member" so that they can participate in some particular sig ad campaign that requires a rank higher than "Newbie". They don't immediately end up on my ignore list, but if they join a sig ad campaign later they'll get there eventually.

There are also plenty of people in the world that simply can't hold back from speaking without thinking about what they are about to say first.  There's nothing I can do about that, but ignoring nearly all sig ad campaign participants has made this forum tolerable enough that I didn't leave back in January.  It was getting to be so difficult to find the posts that had sincere questions, or the posts that had useful information, that it was like searching through a 40 acre trash dump to see if you could find a pair of gold earrings that someone accidentally threw away.

As it is, a significant number of members that are not participating in sig ad campaigns have gotten so emotionally and passionately wrapped up in the Bitcoin Core vs. Bitcoin XT "debate" that I'm again finding the forum to be a waste of my time.  I'll probably hold out a couple more months to see if conversation gets more valuable, but if it doesn't I'll move on to other interests.

[BurtW]

Yes, the whole Gavin/Hearn/XT/Core/blocksize debate has even tried to pollute this thread.

People please:  there are enough (dozens) of threads on those subjects.  Please refrain from polluting this thread with those issues.

[jonald_fyookball]

so Burt,

what are the fed shills doing on these boards?  Are they mostly
in the currency exchange section?  Are they trolling?  What's going on?

[tvbcof]

so Burt,

what are the fed shills doing on these boards?  Are they mostly
in the currency exchange section?  Are they trolling?  What's going on?

Are you implying that Burt is working with them as part of a plea bargain or something and is privy to their internal strategies?

[BurtW]

so Burt,

what are the fed shills doing on these boards?  Are they mostly
in the currency exchange section?  Are they trolling?  What's going on?

I cannot speak for all the agencies in all the sections but in general:

Be careful with anyone, especially noobs, who asks "How do you <insert something shady or illegal here>"

Now this can be tricky.  Is mixing bad/illegal/laundering or good/necessary/important to preserve the fungibility of the system?

My personal opinion is that it is one of the flaws in Bitcoin that mixing of all transactions in every block is not a standard part of the protocol.  That is my opinion.

But more obvious things like "Hey bra, how do I buy drugs using bit coins" are more obvious.

Mostly they just copy what you say into your "file" however they have been known to post in order to get you to say more if they think it will help them.

Are you implying that Burt is working with them as part of a plea bargain or something and is privy to their internal strategies?

I did not take his question that way.

However, early on when we learned from our mailman that Homeland Security was poking around and asking him questions about our business my wife called them three times in order to find out if we were being investigated.  The agent in charge of investigating me at that time called her back and lied directly to her stating the no, they were not investigating me, her or our business.

In other words they are legally allowed to lie to your face.  If I was one of them I could also legally lie to you.  So, don't trust anyone.

[gentlemand]

As we've seen in dark markets and carding forums half the people on them are law enforcement, often the ones actually running them. No reason why this place gets an exemption if they're after someone.

Once you're actively up on their radar then I'm sure there will be folks here researching and prodding. It sure beats having to get into a car and walk around asking questions in doorways.

I assume bots are scanning and flagging everywhere possible for red flags, but you'd have to be doing some major wrongs in their eyes to attract human attention.

[MF Doom]

so Burt,

what are the fed shills doing on these boards?  Are they mostly
in the currency exchange section?  Are they trolling?  What's going on?

I cannot speak for all the agencies in all the sections but in general:

Be careful with anyone, especially noobs, who asks "How do you <insert something shady or illegal here>"

Only thing is higher ranking accounts on here are a dime a dozen, so I wouldn't limit suspicions to just noobs, but otherwise thanks for the advice.

They (shills or whatever you want to call them) aren't limited to this forum though, but if you look up "sock puppet" accounts you'll see that the gvt employs people to post on forums, blogs & basically anywhere on the web to steer discussion and gather info, among other things.

[jonald_fyookball]

Once you're actively up on their radar then I'm sure there will be folks here researching and prodding. It sure beats having to get into a car and walk around asking questions in doorways.

As we've seen in dark markets and carding forums half the people on them are law enforcement, often the ones actually running them. No reason why this place gets an exemption if they're after someone.

pardon my ignorance, but whats a carding forum?

[gentlemand]

pardon my ignorance, but whats a carding forum?

People who trade credit card details. It seems to be a largely Eastern European thing but they're a big deal on their own. One of the biggest dark markets that did a runner with coins was run by known carders which should've been a small hint.

Look up the tale of Max Butler. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

[MF Doom]

Once you're actively up on their radar then I'm sure there will be folks here researching and prodding. It sure beats having to get into a car and walk around asking questions in doorways.

As we've seen in dark markets and carding forums half the people on them are law enforcement, often the ones actually running them. No reason why this place gets an exemption if they're after someone.

pardon my ignorance, but whats a carding forum?

I think carding is stealing credit card info, or using fraudulent cc info to launder money through gift cards, like the cheap starbucks ones that used to be all over the place here.

I havent seen them on here recently though, hopefully the admins finally cleaned them off this forum.

[Carlton Banks]

As we've seen in dark markets and carding forums half the people on them are law enforcement, often the ones actually running them. No reason why this place gets an exemption if they're after someone.

I've heard it said that this is what happens frequently with terrorist cells also. The leadership are either amongst the agents, or a target of agents.

[tvbcof]

so Burt,

what are the fed shills doing on these boards?  Are they mostly
in the currency exchange section?  Are they trolling?  What's going on?

I cannot speak for all the agencies in all the sections but in general:

Be careful with anyone, especially noobs, who asks "How do you <insert something shady or illegal here>"

Only thing is higher ranking accounts on here are a dime a dozen, so I wouldn't limit suspicions to just noobs, but otherwise thanks for the advice.

They (shills or whatever you want to call them) aren't limited to this forum though, but if you look up "sock puppet" accounts you'll see that the gvt employs people to post on forums, blogs & basically anywhere on the web to steer discussion and gather info, among other things.

I've posted this: Forum Shill gets Busted: ATS and GLP Censor to Cover his Tracks or it's corresponding youtube coverage which is nicely done on various threads here lately because I think it is important information (and probably 'true'.)

We know from the HB Gary Federal e-mail hack that the U.S. govt is interested in and from other research that they have purchased sock-puppet software so it would not be surprising to find evidence of it.  That's why I believe that the 'forum shill busted' story is probably not a hoax.

As for accounts here, note that people do sell their mature accounts.  Not sure how much they bring, but I can imagine it being a fair sum.  Probably more than a dime/dozen at this point.  I've seen people who have undergone what seem to me to be eyebrow-raising chainges in the 4 years I've been around.

Also, the password database has been stolen multiple times.  A funded attacker could have probably extracted passwords for many dormant accounts.  If Theymos is legally obligated to gather and retain certain meta-data, he might as well go the extra mile and hand it over to interested parties for analysis of the (supposed) social media manipulation methods.  I hope he is doing so or will at some point in the future.

[dothebeats]

I have nothing to hide nor nothing to be afraid of, so yes, I would still use bitcointalk.org because I'm in it for the knowledge and my interest goes to bitcoin as well. I can use proxies/vpn/Tor but for an average user who doesn't do anything stupid or illegal, I wouldn't do it at all just to hide my tracks from whoever is watching over me.

[BurtW]

I've posted this: Forum Shill gets Busted: ATS and GLP Censor to Cover his Tracks or it's corresponding youtube coverage which is nicely done on various threads here lately because I think it is important information (and probably 'true'.)

Very interesting and eye opening.  I believe that when we found out through our mailman that HS was investigating my business that was also a "slip up", although on a lesser scale.

[tvbcof]

Since this thread has been (approrirately) moved to meta, let me just add:

I've posted this: Forum Shill gets Busted: ATS and GLP Censor to Cover his Tracks or it's c...
...
If Theymos is legally obligated to gather and retain certain meta-data, he might as well go the extra mile and hand it over to interested parties for analysis of the (supposed) social media manipulation methods.  I hope he is doing so or will at some point in the future.

Hopefully the edits and previews are captured and stored if the software supports it.  There might be some very interesting information to be had if one takes an interest in analysis.  There are many unethical reasons for doing so, but I could see instance where the risks outweigh the rewards.

Ideally, if edit and preview data is retained, it could be immediately transferred out of control of the website maintainer to complicate potential legal requests for such data.

One way or another, forum users should be advised that it is at least technically possible that anything submitted as an preview is subject to capture.  Edits also of course.  Whether it is actually happening or not is probably best to have remain an unknown.

I am pretty sure that if anyone has received what are known as 'national security letter' or similar legal instruments, it would be theymos and his team.  It is probably a fair guess that the administration of this forum has no choice but to tell straight up lies about certain things.

[unamis76]

This thread ended up having pretty nice insights on the topic... And many people posting too fast without looking at their posts. Anyways...

If the DA AUSA (Assistant United States Attorney - remember this is all Federal) believes you are guilty, and believes they can prove it then they should take you to trial; if they do not then they should drop the charges.

The AUSA and my attorney both agreed that the criminal case was a "coin toss" if sent to a jury.  We had a few pre-trial motions to try and assume they all failed the only thing left would have been:  Was what I was doing, trading Bitcoins on localbitcoins.com a business or not?  They claimed it was, we claimed it was not.  Since those wet noodles over at FinCEN did not define what constitutes a business as far a volume of transactions and/or volumes of trades and left it specifically ambiguous as "a matter of fact and circumstance" it would have been up to a jury to decide who was/is right.

BTW by not taking my case to trial this question has still not been decided.

This makes things even more weird. I question myself: what's considered a business? When does one have to acquire a license to trade? Do they emit licenses for Bitcoin traders so that they would be "inside" the law and be able to trade safely? Would a "licensed bitcoin trader" have to require ID to all the people they sell coins to?

If there's no law from FinCEN regulating what's a business or not, I'm curious how did authorities justify deploying people (from policemen to justice) to investigate, search, seize, look your things up and arrest you. There's got to be a reason beyond assets, even if it's a completely ridiculous reason. Maybe I'm failing something (haven't been catching up with the other thread about you).

Questioning your friends and having them give up coins is also very concerning.

[BurtW]

This thread ended up having pretty nice insights on the topic... And many people posting too fast without looking at their posts. Anyways...

If the DA AUSA (Assistant United States Attorney - remember this is all Federal) believes you are guilty, and believes they can prove it then they should take you to trial; if they do not then they should drop the charges.

The AUSA and my attorney both agreed that the criminal case was a "coin toss" if sent to a jury.  We had a few pre-trial motions to try and assume they all failed the only thing left would have been:  Was what I was doing, trading Bitcoins on localbitcoins.com a business or not?  They claimed it was, we claimed it was not.  Since those wet noodles over at FinCEN did not define what constitutes a business as far a volume of transactions and/or volumes of trades and left it specifically ambiguous as "a matter of fact and circumstance" it would have been up to a jury to decide who was/is right.

BTW by not taking my case to trial this question has still not been decided.

This makes things even more weird. I question myself: what's considered a business? When does one have to acquire a license to trade? Do they emit licenses for Bitcoin traders so that they would be "inside" the law and be able to trade safely? Would a "licensed bitcoin trader" have to require ID to all the people they sell coins to?

If there's no law from FinCEN regulating what's a business or not, I'm curious how did authorities justify deploying people (from policemen to justice) to investigate, search, seize, look your things up and arrest you. There's got to be a reason beyond assets, even if it's a completely ridiculous reason. Maybe I'm failing something (haven't been catching up with the other thread about you).

Questioning your friends and having them give up coins is also very concerning.

Their motivation for spending all the time, energy, money to follow me, go to the grand jury, indict me, arrest me, etc. instead of just sending me a fucking one page cease and desist letter is one thing we can try to guess at.  My guess is that Aaron got it in his head that I was another Dread Pirate Roberts level cyber criminal and want the bust for his resume.  Even when all the evidence, or more specifically the lack of any real evidence, did not support his narrative he just doubled down, went for the search warrants and hoped for the best.  All conjecture on my part.

The legal justification for all of this is that they claim I was running an unlicensed money transmittal business end of story.  If someone runs an unlicensed money transmittal business then the law kicks in and they can do everything they just did to me.

Was I running a business?  There is no written guidance or law as far as I can tell.  We did not go to trial so the decider of "fact and circumstance" - the jury - did not decide this question.

You could go get a license from FinCEN before you set up to trade on localbitcoins.com - that is an option.  I believe it is free.  Then you would, of course, have to check and see if you also need a state license which sometimes does cost money.

Then:

You would need to read up on and abide by all KYC/AML, banking, reporting, etc regulations that any money transmitter is bound by law to do  - and there are a lot of them from what I understand.  So yes, you probably would be required, as a business with a money transmittal license, to gather all the KYC info on every single person you trade with.  Once they give you a license then they have you by the balls for sure.

FinCEN has stated that if it is not a business and you are trading for your own account then you do not need to get a license and none of that KYC/AML stuff would apply.

IANAL, but in real life I have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to many law firms and discussed most of this with them.

[Shinpako09]

Of course, nothing to be afraid of. You're not doing anything wrong and this is not hidden website.

[Xian01]

I think the question can be reduced further to "If you know for sure that NSA/CIA are watching the Internet, will you use it ?"

For me, the answer is "Yes".

It should be a given they are monitoring this site.

[MF Doom]

I think the question can be reduced further to "If you know for sure that NSA/CIA are watching the Internet, will you use it ?"

For me, the answer is "Yes".

It should be a given they are monitoring this site.

the same applies to basically any form of digital communication now.  You should know that they probably are monitoring whatever you are using, but if not, they have the ability to be monitoring it.

Even foreign leaders are not exempt from their spy web, so as regular citizens, I think you should expect everything to be potentially monitored.  Every site, every call, everything.

[Panthers52]

I understand that various 3-letter government agencies do monitor a large number of Internet forums, probably including this one. There is also the possibility that 3-letter government agencies would access information contained in PMs on here and elsewhere (possibly without even theymos's knowledge and/or disclosure).

While I am certainly not engaging in anything illegal nor anything that law enforcement would even "frown" upon, I do like to be able to maintain my privacy. So here is a crazy idea, often times I will use encryption (primarily PGP) when communicating with others, even if such communications may not be "sensitive" so that no one (regardless of how many letters is in their name) can easily view what I am discussing.

I think this would most probably be one of the better ways to protect yourself from an overly aggressive "big brother" or a bad apple in a law enforcement agency.

[gentlemand]

Live in a mud hut and trade in goats. Millions of people do it every day. I enjoy being 'unconnected' and would like to make it a permanent thing eventually. The world is becoming ever more warped due to its constant uptime.