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knight22
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September 01, 2015, 03:44:45 AM
 #121

You really don't seem to get what kind of financial infrastructures is needed for bitcoin to be a functioning currency. These infrastructures are what will/are giving bitcoin most value because it makes it useful for individuals and businesses to use it. Just think of exchanges which are the very low level, basic ones. Without them bitcoin would go nowhere. I invite you to learn more about how finance works. There is no war here, only a system that needs to be built to accommodate all participants for bitcoin to achieve its full blown potential. It's not that hard to understand that these businesses now need a clear path of how bitcoin will scale in the future and Core is failing to delivers that. If Core continues to fail to deliver in a timely manner, someone else will. Will it be XT is yet to be seen.

Look I'm not gonna argue the importance of exchanges but if you think blockchain.info, bitnet, bitgo, bitpay are relevant in this discussion you are fooling yourself. They operate in a marginal sector of the Bitcoin economy and they can fancy themselves "leaders" all they want their status amongst the reddit crowd does not impress anyone.

All of these are start-up companies riding VC money and most likely bleeding it as we speak. Some are addressing markets that have shown little demand so far from their service. Let's face it the retail venture of Bitcoin has been a spectacular failure so far. Remember when everyone was tripping because Microsoft started accepting Bitcoin? How far has that brought us?



These businesses are actually building products. They are basically in beta and won't mass marketeer their products to attract new participants until they are finished and are absolutely sure the system they rely on will scale witch is not actually. Gavin released XT after making sure it will get supported by this industry by talking to each one of them (Unlike Core devs in their Ivory tower). https://youtu.be/B8l11q9hsJM?t=1h16s

Convinced/ask the industry first and miners will follow. That's the only logical way to do it properly.

I think he probably should've thought about convincing miners too  Cheesy



You're not one of those people who think "marketing" is gonna sell people unto Bitcoin are ya ?  Undecided

btw why do you using "ivory tower" in the same posts where you reference the "industry" laying down their decision on the debate by way of a two paragraph letter  Huh have they bothered consulting their users? do you realise your hypocrisy here or are you simply going to look the other way because it doesn't fit your argument?

You should watch the whole Gavin interview, it will answer a lot of your questions.

I did. It was terribly boring and absent of any insight to be quite honest.

All I've learned pretty much confirmed what I thought: XT release was carefully orchestrated using propaganda tactics and industry lobbying absent of any balance and transparency. Fortunately it is very much a failure.

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

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September 01, 2015, 03:52:33 AM
 #122

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
knight22
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September 01, 2015, 04:03:56 AM
 #123

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

Patience my friend, patience. Big mining pools are a few phone calls away from supporting XT or at least BIP101 if there is no other implementation being proposed soon.

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September 01, 2015, 04:07:11 AM
 #124

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

Patience my friend, patience. Big mining pools are a few phone calls away from supporting XT or at least BIP101 if there is no other implementation being proposed soon.

 Cheesy Cheesy

The biggest pool & the biggest private miner are openly against BIP101/XT for reasons that won't change with time.

I'm sorry but you need to find another dream. This one is dead.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
knight22
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September 01, 2015, 04:12:26 AM
 #125

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

Patience my friend, patience. Big mining pools are a few phone calls away from supporting XT or at least BIP101 if there is no other implementation being proposed soon.

 Cheesy Cheesy

The biggest pool & the biggest private miner are openly against BIP101/XT for reasons that won't change with time.

I'm sorry but you need to find another dream. This one is dead.

I am not dreaming, I couldn't care less BUT:

1. Don't underestimate the big pockets and their phones.
2. Miners are greedy by nature.

Nothing is played yet until at least 6 months. A lot of things can happen before that and by then we'll get a clearer picture but this is the situation we are in right now.

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September 01, 2015, 04:16:10 AM
 #126

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

Patience my friend, patience. Big mining pools are a few phone calls away from supporting XT or at least BIP101 if there is no other implementation being proposed soon.

 Cheesy Cheesy

The biggest pool & the biggest private miner are openly against BIP101/XT for reasons that won't change with time.

I'm sorry but you need to find another dream. This one is dead.

I am not dreaming, I couldn't care less BUT:

1. Don't underestimate the big pockets and their phones.
2. Miners are greedy by nature.

Nothing is played yet until at least 6 months. A lot of things can happen before that and by then we'll get a clearer picture but this is the situation we are in right now.

What they're gonna call every node owner and ask them to switch  Cheesy

You really expect chinese businessmen to be lead by the nose by "big pockets". You don't think these guys are filthy rich on their own?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
knight22
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September 01, 2015, 04:24:23 AM
 #127

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

Patience my friend, patience. Big mining pools are a few phone calls away from supporting XT or at least BIP101 if there is no other implementation being proposed soon.

 Cheesy Cheesy

The biggest pool & the biggest private miner are openly against BIP101/XT for reasons that won't change with time.

I'm sorry but you need to find another dream. This one is dead.

I am not dreaming, I couldn't care less BUT:

1. Don't underestimate the big pockets and their phones.
2. Miners are greedy by nature.

Nothing is played yet until at least 6 months. A lot of things can happen before that and by then we'll get a clearer picture but this is the situation we are in right now.

What they're gonna call every node owner and ask them to switch  Cheesy

You really expect chinese businessmen to be lead by the nose by "big pockets". You don't think these guys are filthy rich on their own?

Maybe but maybe not. Big mining pools are not that much profitable and most of them aren't even backed by VC's. These people will talk with to each others in some point in time, there is absolutely not doubts about that. It's all a mater of who will have the greatest influence over who and how. Unfortunately we will never know these kind of details but we will know the outcome.

Understand this, this is not a game played on a bitcointalk forum. Not anymore.

brg444
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September 01, 2015, 04:29:46 AM
 #128

Maybe but maybe not. Big mining pools are not that much profitable and most of them aren't even backed by VC's. These people will talk with to each others in some point in time, there is absolutely not doubts about that. It's all a mater of who will have the greatest influence over who and how. Unfortunately we will never know these kind of details but we will know the outcome.

Understand this, this is not a game played on a bitcointalk forum. Not anymore.

That doesn't mean you can sit there and pretend not to observe and acknowledge the events unfolding: an absolute failure for the Bitcoin XT release. You can't wave you hand at the total lack of momentum and support. If you are hoping people will just get tired of waiting and "make the switch" you are bound to be disappointed. It is probably a matter of a couple weeks until other proposals are formalized in the form of different BIPs and then any remaining attention toward BIP101/XT as the "only existing alternative" will disintegrate and make them history.

This is not a game. This is consensus. I know you wish you could cheat it somehow with politics, money and votes but you can't.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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September 01, 2015, 04:33:32 AM
 #129

It didn't even started yet so calling it a failure is absurd. It takes time to roll out things like that. Also asking the industry's opinion is not lobbying. I'm not even sure you know what it means.

It is absolutely right to call it a failure. Even the very misguiding "nodes races" has gotten to a halt and the (fake) nodes turned on to show support for XT are already starting to go offline. Several miners have publicly opposed it. The consensus has clearly shown to be against the proposal.

Patience my friend, patience. Big mining pools are a few phone calls away from supporting XT or at least BIP101 if there is no other implementation being proposed soon.

 Cheesy Cheesy

The biggest pool & the biggest private miner are openly against BIP101/XT for reasons that won't change with time.

I'm sorry but you need to find another dream. This one is dead.

I am not dreaming, I couldn't care less BUT:

1. Don't underestimate the big pockets and their phones.
2. Miners are greedy by nature.

Nothing is played yet until at least 6 months. A lot of things can happen before that and by then we'll get a clearer picture but this is the situation we are in right now.

What they're gonna call every node owner and ask them to switch  Cheesy

You really expect chinese businessmen to be lead by the nose by "big pockets". You don't think these guys are filthy rich on their own?

Any businessmen would follow the money, thats the whole point of being in business, profit. But no an armchair expert like you know it all right?

 If you think miners can mine whatever the fck they want and make money, tell them to mine another sha256 coin, boom that coin will be $200/ coin because thats the mining cost right? They will all be billionaires.... Go ahead tell them dumb shit. Because you claim the infrastructure is mainly built by miners....right?

Where were dumb asses like you when bitcoin was below $2?
knight22
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September 01, 2015, 04:34:25 AM
 #130

Maybe but maybe not. Big mining pools are not that much profitable and most of them aren't even backed by VC's. These people will talk with to each others in some point in time, there is absolutely not doubts about that. It's all a mater of who will have the greatest influence over who and how. Unfortunately we will never know these kind of details but we will know the outcome.

Understand this, this is not a game played on a bitcointalk forum. Not anymore.

That doesn't mean you can sit there and pretend not to observe and acknowledge the events unfolding: an absolute failure for the Bitcoin XT release. You can't wave you hand at the total lack of momentum and support. If you are hoping people will just get tired of waiting and "make the switch" you are bound to be disappointed. It is probably a matter of a couple weeks until other proposals are formalized in the form of different BIPs and then any remaining attention toward BIP101/XT as the "only existing alternative" will disintegrate and make them history.

This is not a game. This is consensus. I know you wish you could cheat it somehow with politics, money and votes but you can't.

That's a possibility indeed. But realize this, XT doesn't need momentum to be implemented. Like any other possible implementation, it only needs agreement between the industry and mining pools. If when that happen, it will be it.

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September 01, 2015, 11:14:09 AM
 #131

That's a possibility indeed. But realize this, XT doesn't need momentum to be implemented. Like any other possible implementation, it only needs agreement between the industry and mining pools. However, this will not happen.
FTFY. You can't seriously believe that XT will gain traction (as planned) after the obvious signs of strong support towards BIP100 and 8MB blocks. From what I've seen, there is minimum support from both the industry and mining pools (almost none). I have seen some support for BIP101 but that is not equal to supporting XT.

Quote
More than ever, I'm convinced that the answer lies somewhere between BIP100 and upal's BIP1xx (but more towards the latter).  A balance between the two is absolutely 100% reasonable.
I definitely agree with this part. BIP100 just needs more work, and BIP1xx should be considered as well. A combination of those two would provide something that is ultimately better than both solution.

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September 01, 2015, 04:51:39 PM
 #132

That's a possibility indeed. But realize this, XT doesn't need momentum to be implemented. Like any other possible implementation, it only needs agreement between the industry and mining pools. However, this will not happen.
FTFY. You can't seriously believe that XT will gain traction (as planned) after the obvious signs of strong support towards BIP100 and 8MB blocks. From what I've seen, there is minimum support from both the industry and mining pools (almost none). I have seen some support for BIP101 but that is not equal to supporting XT.

Quote
More than ever, I'm convinced that the answer lies somewhere between BIP100 and upal's BIP1xx (but more towards the latter).  A balance between the two is absolutely 100% reasonable.
I definitely agree with this part. BIP100 just needs more work, and BIP1xx should be considered as well. A combination of those two would provide something that is ultimately better than both solution.

Who supports bip100 other than miners?

And that is not a surprise as everyone can see why.

Stop making bullshit claim and i will invite you over for a cup of tea.... We can talk about everything cryptocurrency ...promise Wink
knight22
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September 01, 2015, 04:57:10 PM
 #133

That's a possibility indeed. But realize this, XT doesn't need momentum to be implemented. Like any other possible implementation, it only needs agreement between the industry and mining pools. However, this will not happen.
FTFY. You can't seriously believe that XT will gain traction (as planned) after the obvious signs of strong support towards BIP100 and 8MB blocks. From what I've seen, there is minimum support from both the industry and mining pools (almost none). I have seen some support for BIP101 but that is not equal to supporting XT.


This is not what I meant, maybe I have badly express myself. What I actually meant is no matter the agreement between the industry and miners, that agreement will be it (XT or not). You and I will have little to no say about it.

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September 01, 2015, 05:09:46 PM
 #134

I rejected BIP 100.i could not understood why all those intelligent core guys i cant find a good solution about this problem.

Have you take the time to consider that there might just be no solution to be found for a non problem?! Roll Eyes
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