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Author Topic: is Greg Maxwell wrong about the block increase?  (Read 4079 times)
jonald_fyookball
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August 31, 2015, 09:09:40 PM
 #61


Because a year ago, the  average was about half of what it is today and therefore we will be out of space in a other year, never mind spikes, never mind unforeseen factors, never mind the time it takes to get consensus and do a rollout.

Okay. The average block size is still less than half of the limit. So why couldn't Gavin and Mike continue to work within the core community again?

Because of precisely what I said in the OP.  Greg wants us to literally run out space before doing anything.  He and the other core devs don't want to act.

And Gavin doesn't agree.  Nor does Mike, Jeff, a handful of major companies, and an increasing majority of miners.

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August 31, 2015, 09:12:22 PM
 #62


Bitcoin will never change human nature. I will just bring to area of freedom to escape the fiat system.

Human nature is always changing. The planet is far less murderous for the vast majority of society than it was just 200 years ago. To pretend that we are all still apes, driven by base instincts, who would claw each other to death over a pile of food is to ignore the ongoing evolution of human nature.

You want to drag us back in time while technology demands peace, stability and open-mindedness in order to progress. Greed is dumb.

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August 31, 2015, 09:14:30 PM
 #63


Bitcoin will never change human nature. I will just bring to area of freedom to escape the fiat system.

Human nature is always changing. The planet is far less murderous for the vast majority of society than it was just 200 years ago. To pretend that we are all still apes, driven by base instincts, who would claw each other to death over a pile of food is to ignore the ongoing evolution of human nature.

You want to drag us back in time while technology demands peace, stability and open-mindedness in order to progress. Greed is dumb.


amen brother!




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August 31, 2015, 09:15:48 PM
 #64


Because a year ago, the  average was about half of what it is today and therefore we will be out of space in a other year, never mind spikes, never mind unforeseen factors, never mind the time it takes to get consensus and do a rollout.

Okay. The average block size is still less than half of the limit. So why couldn't Gavin and Mike continue to work within the core community again?

Because of precisely what I said in the OP.  Greg wants us to literally run out space before doing anything.  He and the other core devs don't want to act.

And Gavin doesn't agree.  Nor does Mike, Jeff, a handful of major companies, and an increasing majority of miners.

I am 90% certain XT will end up being just another altcoin. Have fun supporting it. Hey, I like a lot of altcoins. Nothing wrong with that. But pretending it will replace bitcoin anytime in the next 3 years is fanciful thinking. I've never held an alt where I thought that would be the case. Gavin should have at least had the courtesy to come up with his own name instead of riding bitcoin's coat tails.

jonald_fyookball
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August 31, 2015, 09:22:23 PM
 #65


Because a year ago, the  average was about half of what it is today and therefore we will be out of space in a other year, never mind spikes, never mind unforeseen factors, never mind the time it takes to get consensus and do a rollout.

Okay. The average block size is still less than half of the limit. So why couldn't Gavin and Mike continue to work within the core community again?

Because of precisely what I said in the OP.  Greg wants us to literally run out space before doing anything.  He and the other core devs don't want to act.

And Gavin doesn't agree.  Nor does Mike, Jeff, a handful of major companies, and an increasing majority of miners.

I am 90% certain XT will end up being just another altcoin. Have fun supporting it. Hey, I like a lot of altcoins. Nothing wrong with that. But pretending it will replace bitcoin anytime in the next 3 years is fanciful thinking. I've never held an alt where I thought that would be the case. Gavin should have at least had the courtesy to come up with his own name instead of riding bitcoin's coat tails.

Well I'm 90% sure you're wrong and misinformed. 

You are misinformed.  

XT is an alt client that supports the Bitcoin blockchain and its rules and protocol.

The only difference is it will support bigger blocks IF AND WHEN 75% of the miners agree.
if and when that happens, core will either upgrade to be compatible or Bitcoin
will fork, but since the economic SUPER MAJORITY will be supporting bigger
blocks, the 1mb version of Bitcoin will likely be considered the alt.

Just because one code repository calls itself core doesn't give it exclusive rights
to control Bitcoin or call itself Bitcoin.   That's what people have been pointing out
for years when Bitcoin pessimists tried to argue that 'Bitcoin isn't decentralized
because it's run by a few core devs.'. Well, now we are seeing that indeed, it
is decentralized.  The core devs don't call all the shots and if they try to do
something the community doesn't like (such as take too long to increase
the blocksize), they will lose their power.

If one understands all this yet still insists on calling it an "altcoin", then
it is an attempt to mischaracterize and marginalize it, and an attempt
to influence opinion through misinformation (thus it is intellectually dishonest.)
It is also an attempt to force an outcome based on one's personal opinions
and biases, rather than allowing the economic majority to decide.



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August 31, 2015, 09:24:55 PM
 #66


Because a year ago, the  average was about half of what it is today and therefore we will be out of space in a other year, never mind spikes, never mind unforeseen factors, never mind the time it takes to get consensus and do a rollout.

Okay. The average block size is still less than half of the limit. So why couldn't Gavin and Mike continue to work within the core community again?

Because of precisely what I said in the OP.  Greg wants us to literally run out space before doing anything.  He and the other core devs don't want to act.

And Gavin doesn't agree.  Nor does Mike, Jeff, a handful of major companies, and an increasing majority of miners.

I am 90% certain XT will end up being just another altcoin. Have fun supporting it. Hey, I like a lot of altcoins. Nothing wrong with that. But pretending it will replace bitcoin anytime in the next 3 years is fanciful thinking. I've never held an alt where I thought that would be the case. Gavin should have at least had the courtesy to come up with his own name instead of riding bitcoin's coat tails.

Well I'm 90% sure you're wrong and misinformed. 

You are misinformed.  

XT is an alt client that supports the Bitcoin blockchain and its rules and protocol.

The only difference is it will support bigger blocks IF AND WHEN 75% of the miners agree.
if and when that happens, core will either upgrade to be compatible or Bitcoin
will fork, but since the economic SUPER MAJORITY will be supporting bigger
blocks, the 1mb version of Bitcoin will likely be considered the alt.

Just because one code repository calls itself core doesn't give it exclusive rights
to control Bitcoin or call itself Bitcoin.   That's what people have been pointing out
for years when Bitcoin pessimists tried to argue that 'Bitcoin isn't decentralized
because it's run by a few core devs.'. Well, now we are seeing that indeed, it
is decentralized.  The core devs don't call all the shots and if they try to do
something the community doesn't like (such as take too long to increase
the blocksize), they will lose their power.

If one understands all this yet still insists on calling it an "altcoin", then
it is an attempt to mischaracterize and marginalize it, and an attempt
to influence opinion through misinformation (thus it is intellectually dishonest.)
It is also an attempt to force an outcome based on one's personal opinions
and biases, rather than allowing the economic majority to decide.



Why are we still talking about XT like it actually has a chance? Number of (fake) nodes already going down. Absolutely no support from miners...

Face it, it was dead on arrival.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
jonald_fyookball
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August 31, 2015, 09:32:25 PM
 #67

no idea...the conversation between Nutildah and me went like this:

N: blocks are only at .44
J:  yes but doubling annually.
N: but then why can't Gavin work with core
J: Greg wants a standing backlog, he doesn't want to.
N: XT will be another altcoin
J: XT is an alt client, not a coin.

nutildah
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August 31, 2015, 09:42:42 PM
 #68


J: XT is an alt client, not a coin.


Until the fork, right? Then it is its own coin. Or are you going to argue with this, too?

Why try to make things more confusing for XT? You are just beating a dead horse.

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August 31, 2015, 09:45:33 PM
 #69


J: XT is an alt client, not a coin.


Until the fork, right? Then it is its own coin. Or are you going to argue with this, too?

Why try to make things more confusing for XT? You are just beating a dead horse.

There won't be an XT created fork until and unless 75% of the miners are running Bip 101 and core refuses to upgrade.

If and when that happens, I suppose you can argue that XT is an altcoin but you'll be arguing against the economic supermajority who will say that 1mb Bitcoin is the alt.

nutildah
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August 31, 2015, 09:47:42 PM
 #70


J: XT is an alt client, not a coin.


Until the fork, right? Then it is its own coin. Or are you going to argue with this, too?

Why try to make things more confusing for XT? You are just beating a dead horse.

There won't be an XT created fork until and unless 75% of the miners are running Bip 101 and core refuses to upgrade.

If and when that happens, I suppose you can argue that XT is an altcoin but you'll be arguing against the economic majority.

OK lets talk again when XT surpasses BTC in market cap.

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August 31, 2015, 09:51:11 PM
 #71

You can laugh all you want but it won't change the fact that these company with their BS money have more influence than you and me. You'd better accept this sooner than later.  Bitcoin is not more your money than their money.  

How can you be so oblivious in the face of reality?

BIP101 as implemented and supported by these companies is never going to see the light of the day. Miners are openly against such an increase. These company have been ridiculed in the span of only a week for supporting an openly dismissed proposal all because of Gavin.

It's a sad sad sight that all these "entrepreneurs" and VC can't think for themselves.

Miners have no choice to follow the market makers unless they want to mine a worthless coin. You are delusional if you think otherwise.

Bitcoin holders are the market makers. not the miners, not the companies, not the devs, and certainly not the masses.

Speculators will go where the market makers are too.


speculators are the market's friggin nervous system!!

And speculators will follow the big money, to make money...

lol no, they might use them VC n00bs.. but as they say.. buy the rumor.. SELL THE NEWS Grin Grin Grin


edit: special kuddos to circle, bitpay, coinbase et al. having growth trouble much.. ^^

+ where my wall street boys?? Cheesy Cheesy
jonald_fyookball
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August 31, 2015, 10:00:10 PM
 #72


J: XT is an alt client, not a coin.


Until the fork, right? Then it is its own coin. Or are you going to argue with this, too?

Why try to make things more confusing for XT? You are just beating a dead horse.

There won't be an XT created fork until and unless 75% of the miners are running Bip 101 and core refuses to upgrade.

If and when that happens, I suppose you can argue that XT is an altcoin but you'll be arguing against the economic majority.

OK lets talk again when XT surpasses BTC in market cap.

We can talk when there is ANY market cap, which there isn't because , again, XT is not a coin.  Hope I cleared that up for you. 

XT isn't the only way to bigger blocks.  Are you aware of the block votes ?

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August 31, 2015, 10:17:32 PM
 #73


J: XT is an alt client, not a coin.


Until the fork, right? Then it is its own coin. Or are you going to argue with this, too?

Why try to make things more confusing for XT? You are just beating a dead horse.

There won't be an XT created fork until and unless 75% of the miners are running Bip 101 and core refuses to upgrade.

If and when that happens, I suppose you can argue that XT is an altcoin but you'll be arguing against the economic majority.

OK lets talk again when XT surpasses BTC in market cap.

Let's pretend the fork happens and the Core chain remains alive. When all of the industry including major exchanges switched to XT, following by speculatiors then the miners. New investment flow to XT chain simply because it scales and Core doest. By which logic you think Core will still keep a significant market cap? Because ideology of small blocks?

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August 31, 2015, 10:45:33 PM
 #74

Well, in the final we can just see what will people choose.

nutildah
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August 31, 2015, 10:56:24 PM
 #75


We can talk when there is ANY market cap, which there isn't because , again, XT is not a coin.  Hope I cleared that up for you.  


If bitcoin forks (and it has been forked before, several times), you will have 2 blockchains, hence the need for 2 different names. You didn't clear up anything other than that you are a shill for XT.

Until XT surpasses BTC in market cap, it is a de facto altcoin. Its not a matter of opinion. Do you understand that "alt" is short for "alternate" or "alternative"? What coin do you think is being referenced as "primary"? I'll give you a hint, it starts with "b."

jonald_fyookball
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August 31, 2015, 11:02:10 PM
 #76


We can talk when there is ANY market cap, which there isn't because , again, XT is not a coin.  Hope I cleared that up for you.  


If bitcoin forks (and it has before, several times), you will have 2 blockchains, hence the need for 2 different names. You didn't clear up anything other than that you are a shill for XT.

Until XT surpasses BTC in market cap, it is a de facto altcoin. Its not a matter of opinion.

"if" proposes a hypothetical, not a current reality, but we are getting into semantics.

I am not a shill for XT.  I never even brought up XT.  You did.  I would rather see bigger blocks happen without XT and fortunately that seems to be unfolding already as most miners are voting for bip 100.  

But knight22 posed an interesting question that I would be amused to see you answer.

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August 31, 2015, 11:12:21 PM
 #77


"if" proposes a hypothetical, not a current reality, but we are getting into semantics.

I am not a shill for XT.  I never even brought up XT.  You did.  I would rather see bigger blocks happen without XT and fortunately that seems to be unfolding already as most miners are voting for bip 100.  

But knight22 posed an interesting question that I would be amused to see you answer.

Knight's question is also is based on the contingency of "if." That's why I ignored it.

If superior alien beings come to earth within the next year and knock out electric systems and infrastructure, bitcoin won't exist at all. That's also a pretty big "if."

Otherwise it sounds like we are actually in agreement.

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August 31, 2015, 11:27:48 PM
 #78

so... you ignore the hypothetical when it doesn't suit you and embrace it when it does.   Undecided

Moreover, it was the very hypothetical that you insisted was likely (that XT becomes another altcoin) that you now refuse to consider. 


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August 31, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
 #79

Uh, what? I've got better things to do than argue semantics. You can pretend you won this argument if that makes you feel better.

Dude lets face it. None of our words matter. What will be, will be.

Que sera, sera.

PS: You still anti-vaccination?

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August 31, 2015, 11:42:57 PM
 #80


Dude lets face it. None of our words matter. What will be, will be.


Agree.  The purpose of this thread was to question the wisdom of sir Gregory which until
I recently I assumed was beyond reproach, but I am no longer operating under that bias.

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