Quick, answer! Is BTC 0.000152 big or small?

[markm]

Yawn.  Liked this argument better the first thousand times I read it...

Not sure if you are saying the cost of having everyone hard fork every week is not a problem, we should hard fork often to keep up with fads in whether to use decimals at all or whether it is more fun to all be millionares or whatever?

Or that you agree a thousand times over thus it is very boring that the same obvious objection to an pathetically stupid Frequently Proposed Idiocy has to come up a thousand times due to Frequently Proposed Idiocies being so very frequently proposed...

-MarkM-

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[bobitza]

Exactly, so there will be some confusion when some sites display prices in BTC and some in mBTC. You need to pay attention to see what small letter there is in front of the BTC, is it "m"? is it "u"? somebody said something about "n".

Wow that is the argument.

Got sidetracked; that is not the main argument. The main argument is people seeing prices like 0.00231 or 0.00097 which is not right because they are not "transaction-friendly" (for a lack of a better word). They are not transaction friendly because the way we are used to deal with the power of 10 in our daily lives. This is the argument.

And it seems I'm not the only one thinking like this.

P.S.  Hundreds of threads on this topic, and this one doesn't seem to have added much, if anything, to the discussion.

@markm
I don't know what you are talking about there ... A split can be as simple as community agreeing that the mBitcoin is THE BTC and display all transactions accordingly in the wallets, mining software, ecommerce sites, etc. Already mined bitcoin will just be displayed as x1000 (if we are to use the mBTC example). What has Mgox and speculators has to do with anything?

[FreeMoney]

Exactly, so there will be some confusion when some sites display prices in BTC and some in mBTC. You need to pay attention to see what small letter there is in front of the BTC, is it "m"? is it "u"? somebody said something about "n".

Wow that is the argument.

Got sidetracked; that is not the main argument. The main argument is people seeing prices like 0.00231 or 0.00097 which is not right because they are not "transaction-friendly" (for a lack of a better word). They are not transaction friendly because the way we are used to deal with the power of 10 in our daily lives. This is the argument.

And it seems I'm not the only one thinking like this.

P.S.  Hundreds of threads on this topic, and this one doesn't seem to have added much, if anything, to the discussion.

@markm
I don't know what you are talking about there ... A split can be as simple as community agreeing that the mBitcoin is THE BTC and display all transactions accordingly in the wallets, mining software, ecommerce sites, etc. Already mined bitcoin will just be displayed as x1000 (if we are to use the mBTC example). What has Mgox and speculators has to do with anything?

"The community" isn't going to do anything as instantly as that would require. Just use whatever name you like for 1/1000, eventually one or more will catch on and be the de facto base unit.

At Seals we use 'chips' to mean 1/1000.

This isn't a real problem because people can solve it easily when and where it matters.

[bobitza]

"The community" isn't going to do anything as instantly as that would require. Just use whatever name you like for 1/1000, eventually one or more will catch on and be the de facto base unit.

This isn't a real problem because people can solve it easily when and where it matters.

You're right, it isn't a problem, it's more like a "nice to have" than a "must have". I can also see that this kind of change is not something that's easy to do. But I am still convinced that having prices and assets displayed in that range is good for Bitcoin adoption.

[D.H.]

Just use whatever name you like for 1/1000, eventually one or more will catch on and be the de facto base unit.

At Seals we use 'chips' to mean 1/1000.

I agree with this. I do hope that we will use some other notation than mBTC and uBTC though. Putting a prefix in front of the currency code looks very akward to me. Would be much nicer to have a separate symbol for "millies" or whatever we choose to call them (like $ and ¢ for dollars and cents).

But actually, it might be easier to reach a consensus on the symbol for "millies" than it has been for Bitcoin. ฿, Ƀ or whatever it is.

[kjj]

Just use whatever name you like for 1/1000, eventually one or more will catch on and be the de facto base unit.

At Seals we use 'chips' to mean 1/1000.

I agree with this. I do hope that we will use some other notation than mBTC and uBTC though. Putting a prefix in front of the currency code looks very akward to me. Would be much nicer to have a separate symbol for "millies" or whatever we choose to call them (like $ and ¢ for dollars and cents).

This made me laugh.

Cents is from the latin centi, meaning one part in 100.  We just don't call them centidollars because after hundreds of years, the word has been worn down to a stub.

[D.H.]

Just use whatever name you like for 1/1000, eventually one or more will catch on and be the de facto base unit.

At Seals we use 'chips' to mean 1/1000.

I agree with this. I do hope that we will use some other notation than mBTC and uBTC though. Putting a prefix in front of the currency code looks very akward to me. Would be much nicer to have a separate symbol for "millies" or whatever we choose to call them (like $ and ¢ for dollars and cents).

This made me laugh.

Cents is from the latin centi, meaning one part in 100.  We just don't call them centidollars because after hundreds of years, the word has been worn down to a stub.

Not sure that I get your point here. I do know that cent means one part in 100, just like milli means one part in 1000. My point was that we don't write cUSD, we write '¢'. We write 14¢ and we might write 0.14 USD if we use the currency code but we don't write 14 cUSD (I'm not american so correct me if I'm wrong).

[kjj]

Just use whatever name you like for 1/1000, eventually one or more will catch on and be the de facto base unit.

At Seals we use 'chips' to mean 1/1000.

I agree with this. I do hope that we will use some other notation than mBTC and uBTC though. Putting a prefix in front of the currency code looks very akward to me. Would be much nicer to have a separate symbol for "millies" or whatever we choose to call them (like $ and ¢ for dollars and cents).

This made me laugh.

Cents is from the latin centi, meaning one part in 100.  We just don't call them centidollars because after hundreds of years, the word has been worn down to a stub.

Not sure that I get your point here. I do know that cent means one part in 100, just like milli means one part in 1000. My point was that we don't write cUSD, we write '¢'. We write 14¢ and we might write 0.14 USD if we use the currency code but we don't write 14 cUSD (I'm not american so correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't think that I've ever actually used the cents symbol even once in my entire life.  I rarely even write the word cents, usually opting for something more like $ 0.14.

Also, keep in mind two things.  First, dollars were around for hundreds of years before the concept of a "currency code" was ever imagined.  And second, the world has effectively never seen a deflationary currency before, meaning that we've never ever needed more precision in a currency, always less.

[markm]

Lets be traditional and very British about it!

Don't write 1.030010 BTC, instead write B1,30m,10p! One coin, 30 millies and 10picos, maybe colloquialised to one coin 30 mils and sixpic, or even what the heck call the pics pence?

After all, all this silly decimal stuff is just silly nerd stuff, new pence was a funnymoney scam, not one coin of it real sterling silver fergoshsakes!

People managed with pounds, shillings, and pence for how long, and all of a sudden they can't handle coins, millies, and picos?

What is the world coming to!?!?!

-MarkM-

[killerstorm]

Lets be traditional and very British about it!

Don't write 1.030010 BTC, instead write B1,30m,10p! One coin, 30 millies and 10picos, maybe colloquialised to one coin 30 mils and sixpic, or even what the heck call the pics pence?

Micros, not picos. Or as people already mentioned here "mikes".

People managed with pounds, shillings, and pence for how long, and all of a sudden they can't handle coins, millies, and picos?

I think we all can agree that OP is just somewhat uneducated and stop beating the dead horse.

Also, um, 152×10^-6.

Or, maybe 1.52E-4

[markm]

Ok, pence it is, since millies and micros both start with m and we don't want any silly non-British (ahem Roman, but who cares) alphabets!

-MarkM-

[kmettke]

µ=micro
m=milli
so not both starting with "m"

[markm]

Roman has a "u" ?

-MarkM-

[Hawkix]

The capacity of 1 Farad is so large that all involved in electronics get accustomed to use microFarads and nanoFarads. No problem.

[Akka]

The capacity of 1 Farad is so large that all involved in electronics get accustomed to use microFarads and nanoFarads. No problem.

Very good example, nobody is talking about Farad in electronics and everyone is just totally used to microFarads so that is normal.

Another good example is Bell, nobody used Bell because its just to huge, Decibel is the "normal" unit.

[bobitza]

And everybody else out there are engineers in electronics or looking to become one ... Problem solved.

[dree12]

Roman has a "u" ?

-MarkM-

M (μ), indeed, is commonly used alongside Latin alphabets. See this Wikipedia page.

[markm]

Roman has a "u" ?

-MarkM-

M (μ), indeed, is commonly used alongside Latin alphabets. See this Wikipedia page.

Ah, M as distinct from m? So we would write B1,30m,10M for 1.030010 BTC?

I don't like it, as capitals "seem bigger than" lowercase, and having a "bigger" symbol for the "smaller" unit just seems gauche / uncouth / potentially misleading to small children / unaesthetic.

Compare Lsd for pounds shillings pence vs LsD for same. Awkward. Unintuitive.

-MarkM-

[kjj]

Roman has a "u" ?

-MarkM-

M (μ), indeed, is commonly used alongside Latin alphabets. See this Wikipedia page.

Ah, M as distinct from m? So we would write B1,30m,10M for 1.030010 BTC?

I don't like it, as capitals "seem bigger than" lowercase, and having a "bigger" symbol for the "smaller" unit just seems gauche / uncouth / potentially misleading to small children / unaesthetic.

Compare Lsd for pounds shillings pence vs LsD for same. Awkward. Unintuitive.

Heh, no, and no.

In Greek, the letter mu is written either as μ (lowercase) or M (uppercase).  Since it is the first letter in the Greek word μικρός (micro) it has been adopted as the SI prefix for 10^-6.  It is common to just use u instead of μ when writing with a latin character set (like ASCII).  M (uppercase) is still used for Mega (10⁶).

And no one would ever suggest that silly notation you made up.  1.030010 BTC, or 1030.010 mBTC, or 1030010 μBTC.  In metric, it is pretty much unheard of to mix powers like that.  No one writes 1 Kilometer, 30 meters, 10 millimeters, they pick an appropriate scale and go with it.

[markm]

Yeah I know that, but since the entire thread is about making up stupid and possibly arbitrary newfangled notations I figured I might as have a go at it myself.

Plus, mine does not even require forking the blockchain!

Though I guess if this is really all about making up excuses for forking the blockchain, I suggest we use 128-bit numbers to get rid of the stupid 8-decimals restriction, and use binary coded decimal math libs, and use three fields for value so we can code Coins, Millis and Micros right into the blackchain as distinct fields.

Oh and while we are at it, I'd like a few million coins for me coded into the genesis block.

-MarkM-