The state of crypto - The only serious thread on the subforum

[Fuserleer]

In actual fact, the core fundamentals, algorithms and protocols are quite simple.

That's irrelevant. In analyzing an entire system it can be, and usually is, the interactions that are highly complex and critically important, not the components. That includes interactions with the outside world.

Sure, algorithmic complexity is irrelevant, ok then  

You don't need to know all the high level interactions to achieve an understand how something works.  

Relativity theory can be digested by anyone of sound mind, and they can form an understanding of it at a good enough level to visualize what is taking place.  

Getting into the detail is a different matter, but that is not what I was trying to say.

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[kelsey]

...
The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about.
...

Very simple. Show me a poor, homeless person, that accepts credit or debit cards. In person cash works but over the Internet, across international borders? Crypto currencies solve this very simple problem.

sorry how many poor homeless people use a crypto  

over the internet, banktransfers, paypal, credit card, all work just fine, and most people have no problems here.

[newb4now]

...
The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about.
...

Very simple. Show me a poor, homeless person, that accepts credit or debit cards. In person cash works but over the Internet, across international borders? Crypto currencies solve this very simple problem.

I was also going to answer the unbanked.  No need to be homeless. In many countries bank accounts are rare. In some countries where bank accounts are more common, fees are very high and there are lots of restrictions on international transfers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
M-Pesa is huge, but run by the phone company and with much higher fees than bitcoin. There is demand for crypto!

[smooth]

...
The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about.
...

Very simple. Show me a poor, homeless person, that accepts credit or debit cards. In person cash works but over the Internet, across international borders? Crypto currencies solve this very simple problem.

I was also going to answer the unbanked.  No need to be homeless. In many countries bank accounts are rare. In some countries where bank accounts are more common, fees are very high and there are lots of restrictions on international transfers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
M-Pesa is huge, but run by the phone company and with much higher fees than bitcoin. There is demand for crypto!

Higher fees are kind of a weak argument. Bitcoin doesn't have a compelling model to scale up without enormous costs or becoming centralized (or both). So it can't really deliver low fees on a large scale either, or at least we can't say it can with high confidence. Now maybe it can with things like the lightning network, sidechains, or even long-term continuation of Moore's Law, but there is no real consensus to pursue any of those paths, so what we have now is an unclear future (in part because no one really knows if any of them will work).

[ArticMine]

...
The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about.
...

Very simple. Show me a poor, homeless person, that accepts credit or debit cards. In person cash works but over the Internet, across international borders? Crypto currencies solve this very simple problem.

I was also going to answer the unbanked.  No need to be homeless. In many countries bank accounts are rare. In some countries where bank accounts are more common, fees are very high and there are lots of restrictions on international transfers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
M-Pesa is huge, but run by the phone company and with much higher fees than bitcoin. There is demand for crypto!

M-Pesa is actualy an exception but only works in Kenya. On a bus between Kenya and Tanzania it fails. There is a different incompatible M-Pesa in Tanzania. The market is huge as most of the world's population is poor. Fees are critical here. If it costs $12 for someone in Canada to pay $70 to someone is Kenya that is fail. I witnessed this at the local post office. Crypto can solve this problem.

[smooth]

The market is huge as most of the world's population is poor.

Market size is the product of the number of potential customers times the average demand for the product from each of those customers. Poor customers have small average demand per customer by definition. So is the market really huge? I don't know.

Let's say it is though. How can crypto really focus on serving that market then? It seems quite different from where the focus is now.

[r0ach]

"The blockchain" is nonsense without a native currency.

I was referring to the validity of coins as a store of value, not a chain without native currency.

The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about. Outside of gold bugs and some anti-Fed zealots no one really cares about "fixed supply" and all that stuff.

Of course, decentralized exchanges.  Also, for example, the ability for software or game devs to do things like self publish their own software on a platform like Bitshares 2.0 (possibly emunie as well - if Emunie works) instead of having to use Steam or GOG.  Since the platforms have a native currency, plus USD pegged assets, they're already their own payment processors.  You have the ability to integrate that 2.0 platform front end to navigate to and purchase the files on the provider's back end.

An example I posted in another thread of a simple way to do this:

1)  First, add a simple to use, peer to peer, off-chain, encrypted messenger that doesn't utilize 3rd party servers, with a non-bloated interface, something resembling Aim Lite to your 2.0 crypto client.

2)  Next, expand on this messenger functionality by allowing users to set file permissions for people on your list, using both global variables for any contact, and also allowing to set more fine control per individual, giving directory access to each other.  This would basically be a way more cut down and less bloated version of the program DC++, which is open source file sharing software, so might be able to have some donor code for this use.  You're adding file sharing capability to your client for both personal use between friends and vendor use.

3)  Since you now have a monetary system, a dollar peg, and a file sharing system with granular control over users and permissions, you now have the backbone for users to open their own stores like GOG.com and Steam, or just individual game studios or software developers themselves operating them.  Your 2.0 platform would just be the front end, while a business would have to integrate their back end into it.  You of course have all the technical difficulties of monolithic vs compartmentalized approach, but I'm sure it could be sorted out somehow.  The messenger friend list is just a database entry on their back end, for all intents and purposes, so a game company could just auto accept new user invites, auto share demo folders with them, then have a trigger to increase folder permissions when a purchase is made to be able to forever download the game.  This could be done as easily as browsing a folder directory, then when you click it, it comes up with a message saying it requires 20 BitUSD or Emunie for access to this folder, or proprietary store interface menus could be launched within the program or built in browser as well.

Yes, all of this stuff is being done off-chain with the exception of the payment processing, but who cares?  You're building off chain functionality into your clients in order to facilitate on-chain commerce.

[smooth]

how is this;

"D)  The only known altcoin to have github activity or ownership by Bitcoin core devs themselves."

re monero even remotely true.

What is the counterexample?

[ArticMine]

Here is a very small example of this market.

New York, 11 March 2010 (IRIN) - Haiti's economy depends on the estimated US$1.5 billion a year in remittances sent home by its million-strong diaspora. Dilip Ratha, lead economist at the World Bank, said the figure could be even higher, accounting for perhaps half the national income.

http://www.irinnews.org/report/88397/haiti-us-remittances-keep-the-homeland-afloat. The thing about the poor is that there are many of them, so even if they each only send and receive a little it adds up fast. I picked Haiti because it is one of the poorest countries in the world. There are many more.

How crypto can help?

1) Build the payment infrastructure that allows for person to person international payments, with no middlemen.
2) Do not worry about "bloat"
3) Let Moore's, Kryder's and Nielsen's laws do the rest.

Will it work? There is a good chance that it will; however there are no guarantees.

[Thenoticer]

Poor people and remittance is huge IF the fees are seen as significantly lower and ease of use is there.

But homeless people using bitcoin?    Really.

How many homeless have you actually intereacted with? Some are just down on their luck, but most are mentally disabled, drug addicts, or both. They use barter economy and don't have the ability to store long fancy passcodes or keep data. Sure some might have a smart phone but shit gets lost and stolen way to fast.


Bitcoin had a utility when people thought it was anonymous and they could get prohibited items, such as drugs with mail order. Silk road busts crushed this notion. This has left altcoin speculating as the main use for btc. And altcoin speculating is in the toilet.

Crypto needs a pissed off gov person to come on the news and say, those damned kids are using [insert name here] crypto to buy drugs and theres nothing we can do about it

[kelsey]

how is this;

"D)  The only known altcoin to have github activity or ownership by Bitcoin core devs themselves."

re monero even remotely true.

What is the counterexample?

 i replied earlier, but yeah litecoin for 1.

[Piston Honda]

$WBB is on the way to something great

[ArticMine]

Poor people and remittance is huge IF the fees are seen as significantly lower and ease of use is there.

But homeless people using bitcoin?    Really.

How many homeless have you actually intereacted with? Some are just down on their luck, but most are mentally disabled, drug addicts, or both. They use barter economy and don't have the ability to store long fancy passcodes or keep data. Sure some might have a smart phone but shit gets lost and stolen way to fast.


Bitcoin had a utility when people thought it was anonymous and they could get prohibited items, such as drugs with mail order. Silk road busts crushed this notion. This has left altcoin speculating as the main use for btc. And altcoin speculating is in the toilet.

Crypto needs a pissed off gov person to come on the news and say, those damned kids are using [insert name here] crypto to buy drugs and theres nothing we can do about it

Homeless using Bitcoin. http://www.wired.com/2013/12/bitcoin-homeless-redux/.

Edit 1: Now if they are addicted probably not. The idea of say a heroin addict paying for his next fix online and then waiting two weeks in withdrawal for the drug to arrive by mail does not make much sense to me.
Edit 2: I have worked with homeless people. I have also observed a person spend $50 to make a $20 payment online. Poverty ain’t cheap when it comes to online payments.

[sidhujag]

"The blockchain" is nonsense without a native currency.

I was referring to the validity of coins as a store of value, not a chain without native currency.

The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about. Outside of gold bugs and some anti-Fed zealots no one really cares about "fixed supply" and all that stuff.

Of course, decentralized exchanges.  Also, for example, the ability for software or game devs to do things like self publish their own software on a platform like Bitshares 2.0 (possibly emunie as well - if Emunie works) instead of having to use Steam or GOG.  Since the platforms have a native currency, plus USD pegged assets, they're already their own payment processors.  You have the ability to integrate that 2.0 platform front end to navigate to and purchase the files on the provider's back end.

An example I posted in another thread of a simple way to do this:

1)  First, add a simple to use, peer to peer, off-chain, encrypted messenger that doesn't utilize 3rd party servers, with a non-bloated interface, something resembling Aim Lite to your 2.0 crypto client.

2)  Next, expand on this messenger functionality by allowing users to set file permissions for people on your list, using both global variables for any contact, and also allowing to set more fine control per individual, giving directory access to each other.  This would basically be a way more cut down and less bloated version of the program DC++, which is open source file sharing software, so might be able to have some donor code for this use.  You're adding file sharing capability to your client for both personal use between friends and vendor use.

3)  Since you now have a monetary system, a dollar peg, and a file sharing system with granular control over users and permissions, you now have the backbone for users to open their own stores like GOG.com and Steam, or just individual game studios or software developers themselves operating them.  Your 2.0 platform would just be the front end, while a business would have to integrate their back end into it.  You of course have all the technical difficulties of monolithic vs compartmentalized approach, but I'm sure it could be sorted out somehow.  The messenger friend list is just a database entry on their back end, for all intents and purposes, so a game company could just auto accept new user invites, auto share demo folders with them, then have a trigger to increase folder permissions when a purchase is made to be able to forever download the game.  This could be done as easily as browsing a folder directory, then when you click it, it comes up with a message saying it requires 20 BitUSD or Emunie for access to this folder, or proprietary store interface menus could be launched within the program or built in browser as well.

Yes, all of this stuff is being done off-chain with the exception of the payment processing, but who cares?  You're building off chain functionality into your clients in order to facilitate on-chain commerce.

The offchain apps are def the value add to any core api because it brings in real world usage.. I did about 11 plugins to shopping carts for bitshares and this is the kind of thing that makes a core protocol take off.. When you have the ability to make things better for consumer and vendor at no extra complication. Because the pegs you now don't have to change existing web architecture to start understanding other new currencies people haven't hewrd of. To achieve network affect you leverage today's architecutre and make it better instead of the other way around. Once network is achieved people can learn about the native currency and start using that.

[kelsey]

Poor people and remittance is huge IF the fees are seen as significantly lower and ease of use is there.

But homeless people using bitcoin?    Really.

How many homeless have you actually intereacted with? Some are just down on their luck, but most are mentally disabled, drug addicts, or both. They use barter economy and don't have the ability to store long fancy passcodes or keep data. Sure some might have a smart phone but shit gets lost and stolen way to fast.


Bitcoin had a utility when people thought it was anonymous and they could get prohibited items, such as drugs with mail order. Silk road busts crushed this notion. This has left altcoin speculating as the main use for btc. And altcoin speculating is in the toilet.

Crypto needs a pissed off gov person to come on the news and say, those damned kids are using [insert name here] crypto to buy drugs and theres nothing we can do about it

Homeless using Bitcoin. http://www.wired.com/2013/12/bitcoin-homeless-redux/.

Edit 1: Now if they are addicted probably not. The idea of say a heroin addict paying for his next fix online and then waiting two weeks in withdrawal for the drug to arrive by mail does not make much sense to me.
Edit 2: I have worked with homeless people. I have also observed a person spend $50 to make a $20 payment online. Poverty ain’t cheap when it comes to online payments.

kinda lost when people quote banking fees, transfer, payment fees etc

because it rarely cost me anything to transfer between countries or make any online payments or purchase (i work in china often live in austalia, and have travelled internationally alot)....I've always had zero bank fees here in australia, just have to research and shop around. china have more trouble banking across the regions (kinda a strange system) then using its banking os.


most expensive payment system i've experienced is bitcoin oddly enough.

[smooth]

how is this;

"D)  The only known altcoin to have github activity or ownership by Bitcoin core devs themselves."

re monero even remotely true.

What is the counterexample?

 i replied earlier, but yeah litecoin for 1.

I'm not disputing since I don't know. Can you point to specific github activity on the litecoin repo by Bitcoin core devs themselves?

[smooth]

"The blockchain" is nonsense without a native currency.

I was referring to the validity of coins as a store of value, not a chain without native currency.

Hmm. Isn't that the opposite of what Buffet was saying? I'm not sure since I don't know the context but "the blockchain not the currency" is something that is claimed a lot by various commentators.

The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about. Outside of gold bugs and some anti-Fed zealots no one really cares about "fixed supply" and all that stuff.

Of course, decentralized exchanges.  Also, for example, the ability for software or game devs to do things like self publish their own software on a platform like Bitshares 2.0

I don't see it. Using regular dollars seems fine for that. It certainly hasn't hampered Steam or thousands of games published on Steam, Xbox, mobile.

Where is the compelling value here?

And what good are decentralized exchanges if the things you are exchanging have no real use? It seems like a dog chasing its tail to me.

[sidhujag]

"The blockchain" is nonsense without a native currency.

I was referring to the validity of coins as a store of value, not a chain without native currency.

Hmm. Isn't that the opposite of what Buffet was saying? I'm not sure since I don't know the context but "the blockchain not the currency" is something that is claimed a lot by various commentators.

The bigger question behind all this in my mind is whether crypto actually solves any useful problem that anyone cares about. Outside of gold bugs and some anti-Fed zealots no one really cares about "fixed supply" and all that stuff.

Of course, decentralized exchanges.  Also, for example, the ability for software or game devs to do things like self publish their own software on a platform like Bitshares 2.0

I don't see it. Using regular dollars seems fine for that. It certainly hasn't hampered Steam or thousands of games published on Steam, Xbox, mobile.

Where is the compelling value here?

And what good are decentralized exchanges if the things you are exchanging have no real use? It seems like a dog chasing its tail to me.

A stock exchange which clears trades trustlessly without frontrunning and hfts is a compelling case for a dex usecase. The assets that people care about have on/off ramps which instantly create value in those assets proportionate to the level of service those ramps can provide.

[ArticMine]

...

kinda lost when people quote banking fees, transfer, payment fees etc

because it rarely cost me anything to transfer between countries or make any online payments or purchase (i work in china often live in austalia, and have travelled internationally alot)....I've always had zero bank fees here in australia, just have to research and shop around. china have more trouble banking across the regions (kinda a strange system) then using its banking os.


most expensive payment system i've experienced is bitcoin oddly enough.

This is not an uncommon experience for many people. Same here. Why would I use Bitcoin for a domestic payment when I can get 1-2% cash back by using a credit card? The reality is that more often than not those who are involved with crypto - currency as: developers, investors / speculators, miners, investors or employees of crypto currency businesses etc., are not the primary market for the use of crypto currency as a payment method. The same online payment that "costs" me -1%, with a credit card can cost someone else 100% or more in fees.

[smooth]

A stock exchange which clears trades trustlessly without frontrunning and hfts is a compelling case for a dex usecase. The assets that people care about have on/off ramps which instantly create value in those assets proportionate to the level of service those ramps can provide.

Better clearing, yes I agree with that. It is a niche application that won't ever matter to people outside the industry, but nevertheless it is a significant opportunity. As for decentralized exchanges, I'm not so sure they don't increase opportunities for front running by being slow. When you talk about HFTs those are situations where speed of light delays matter. People have tried to build non-real-time liquidity pools before and it hasn't really caught on. So we'll see, but I'm not convinced it is compelling.

Even so that's largely inside baseball for traders (whether professional or otherwise) and wouldn't be of much interest to the Average Joe or Jane by any means. What ArticMine is talking about seems closer, potentially.