Kitco Erases Evidence of Cartel Silver Raid

[Severian]

From a few days ago:

As we have documented in depth throughout the day (here and here), the cartel instigated a waterfall decline in silver this morning co-inciding with the 8:30am EST NFP release, dropping silver to $34.15.


http://www.silverdoctors.com/kitco-erases-evidenence-of-cartel-silver-raid/

[mobodick]

From a few days ago:

As we have documented in depth throughout the day (here and here), the cartel instigated a waterfall decline in silver this morning co-inciding with the 8:30am EST NFP release, dropping silver to $34.15.


http://www.silverdoctors.com/kitco-erases-evidenence-of-cartel-silver-raid/

Yeah, and similar things are happening to bitcoin.
That's why i can't imagine bitcoin becoming too big.
There would simply be people with too many bitcoin and it would not be a healthy environment.

[BobbyJo]

Bitcoin is still very immature.  It will become more stable as it matures.

[mobodick]

Bitcoin is still very immature.  It will become more stable as it matures.

Gold and silver are pretty mature, and yet this kind of thing is still happening...

[Comodore]

Yeah, because it is traded in paper. Not in the real tangible assets but derivates that mostly does not exists.

Bitcoin is pure money, when compared to fiat.

[mobodick]

Yeah, because it is traded in paper. Not in the real tangible assets but derivates that mostly does not exists.

Bitcoin is pure money, when compared to fiat.

Bitcoin is traded 'in paper'. It is just a transaction of information, no real actual stuff that is tangible is transfered.
Bitcoin is a very well protected system of IOUs.

[Comodore]

Yeah, because it is traded in paper. Not in the real tangible assets but derivates that mostly does not exists.

Bitcoin is pure money, when compared to fiat.

Bitcoin is traded 'in paper'. It is just a transaction of information, no real actual stuff that is tangible is transfered.
Bitcoin is a very well protected system of IOUs.

It seems that we have very different mindset.

When i am saying in paper, I mean that we´re trading some paper that is IOU to the asset behind it.

When talking about BTC, We are trading BTC not paper representing BTC.

Therefore, We trade real assets.

[mobodick]

Yeah, because it is traded in paper. Not in the real tangible assets but derivates that mostly does not exists.

Bitcoin is pure money, when compared to fiat.

Bitcoin is traded 'in paper'. It is just a transaction of information, no real actual stuff that is tangible is transfered.
Bitcoin is a very well protected system of IOUs.

It seems that we have very different mindset.

When i am saying in paper, I mean that we´re trading some paper that is IOU to the asset behind it.

When talking about BTC, We are trading BTC not paper representing BTC.

Therefore, We trade real assets.

I'm sorry to bring it to you, but with bitcoin, there is no other thing than trading the face value of bitcoin
And in this respect it is pretty pure, i agree.

[Comodore]

What do you mean by face value?

[mobodick]

What do you mean by face value?

The amount of BTC in a given transaction.
In the end you're not sending bitcoins, you're sending information about who they belong to.
The bitcoin network deals with certificates of ownership.

[ragnard]

But, the point of the BTC system is someone can't give you a piece of paper to trade claiming ownership of an asset they already traded with someone else.  It is the lack of double spending in BTC that differentiates it from the "paper" market in gold/silver.

[mobodick]

But, the point of the BTC system is someone can't give you a piece of paper to trade claiming ownership of an asset they already traded with someone else.  It is the lack of double spending in BTC that differentiates it from the "paper" market in gold/silver.

That is why i said, and i quote: "Bitcoin is a very well protected system of IOUs."
How is the OP related to double spending?

[ragnard]

The OP isn't about double spending.  But, the point was being made in this thread that BTC and the gold/silver paper markets are similar.  While it can be argued they are similar in that they are both small compared to the fiat market, and can thus be more easily manipulated, you can't just make BTC out of thin air.  Well, no more than 50BTC every 10 minutes or so by mining.

[mobodick]

The OP isn't about double spending.  But, the point was being made in this thread that BTC and the gold/silver paper markets are similar.  While it can be argued they are similar in that they are both small compared to the fiat market, and can thus be more easily manipulated, you can't just make BTC out of thin air.  Well, no more than 50BTC every 10 minutes or so by mining.

Aah, but that was not why i think they carry similar risks.
Both bitcoin and gold tend to make people collect it (moreso than fiat).
This then gives a smaller number of people bigger ammounts of power to act on the market.
Bitcoin is in an extreme situation where at the moment half the available bitcoin are in hands of a (on a global scale) small group of people.
I think that this will be a serious problem for bitcoin in the future, but others have disagreed.

[ragnard]

This then gives a smaller number of people bigger ammounts of power to act on the market.
Bitcoin is in an extreme situation where at the moment half the available bitcoin are in hands of a (on a global scale) small group of people.
I think that this will be a serious problem for bitcoin in the future, but others have disagreed.

I have seen similar threads on that subject.  I haven't completely decided yet, but I am finding myself agreeing more with those who say people will sell BTC as the value rises and it gains more popularity.  I don't think BTC was ever designed to do away with the rich vs. poor divide.  But, and this is what I like most about it, it takes the monetary power away from government with their printing presses.  And, without monetary power, government is mostly impotent.

[Comodore]

This then gives a smaller number of people bigger ammounts of power to act on the market.
Bitcoin is in an extreme situation where at the moment half the available bitcoin are in hands of a (on a global scale) small group of people.
I think that this will be a serious problem for bitcoin in the future, but others have disagreed.

I have seen similar threads on that subject.  I haven't completely decided yet, but I am finding myself agreeing more with those who say people will sell BTC as the value rises and it gains more popularity.  I don't think BTC was ever designed to do away with the rich vs. poor divide.  But, and this is what I like most about it, it takes the monetary power away from government with their printing presses.  And, without monetary power, government is mostly impotent.

This is how I imagine it.

[mobodick]

This then gives a smaller number of people bigger ammounts of power to act on the market.
Bitcoin is in an extreme situation where at the moment half the available bitcoin are in hands of a (on a global scale) small group of people.
I think that this will be a serious problem for bitcoin in the future, but others have disagreed.

I have seen similar threads on that subject.  I haven't completely decided yet, but I am finding myself agreeing more with those who say people will sell BTC as the value rises and it gains more popularity.  I don't think BTC was ever designed to do away with the rich vs. poor divide.  But, and this is what I like most about it, it takes the monetary power away from government with their printing presses.  And, without monetary power, government is mostly impotent.

Well, i also think that people will be selling, but the question is, how much?
Since we've got multiple moneys and currencies outside of bitcoin people will not depend (unless they choose to) on spending bitcoin to pay for food and rent.
So i can imagine that if bitcoin becomes a player on the world economy there will still be some people with a lot of bitcoin.
If you then take a look at how much a bitcoin needs to be valued to cover even a small portion of the world economy then you will find that there will be several people with more bitcoindollars than bill gates has. And that would be in usable currency, not in company bonds.
They would become the lords of the markets.
And we've got no idea how they will act and we have no protection for when they decide to screw over the rest.

[Comodore]

Lol, Your ideas are funny when I imagine that this is exactly what is happening in the world. Banks have cartel that gives them right to receive huge amounts of "hot" money from a printing press.
This makes disharmony of money, that you are concerned with.

This is so much of unimportant concern you have that I have to laugh. This problem will simply fix itself by time, and the bitcoin is under best conditions as currency because it has fixed amount.

Therefore, I  wish you stopped off topic

[mobodick]

Lol, Your ideas are funny when I imagine that this is exactly what is happening in the world. Banks have cartel that gives them right to receive huge amounts of "hot" money from a printing press.
This makes disharmony of money, that you are concerned with.

This is so much of unimportant concern you have that I have to laugh. This problem will simply fix itself by time, and the bitcoin is under best conditions as currency because it has fixed amount.

Therefore, I  wish you stopped off topic

I agree.
My point is that we will be exchanging one group of rich bastards for a completely new (and mostly unknown) group of rich bastards.
Since the currency is not the actual problem bitcoin will not fix this atomagically.
At least in a inflationary economy the rich bastards are prodded to invest their capital back into the economy. No such thing in bitcoinland.

Saying that something will simply fix itself is the apex of ignorance.
There are reasons for why things are the way they are and if you do not address these issues nothing will get fixed. Bitcoin magic will not help, i'm afraid.

I wonder why you want to go back on topic when you started debating my views on the bitcoin side of things, but anyway..
..to get back on topic, what is it about our current system that makes, for intance, Kitco believe they can get away with such things?

[mobodick]

Lol, Your ideas are funny when I imagine that this is exactly what is happening in the world. Banks have cartel that gives them right to receive huge amounts of "hot" money from a printing press.
This makes disharmony of money, that you are concerned with.

This is so much of unimportant concern you have that I have to laugh. This problem will simply fix itself by time, and the bitcoin is under best conditions as currency because it has fixed amount.

Therefore, I  wish you stopped off topic

How do you define 'disharmony of money'?