I will admit something...

[JA37]

You see, he can't imagine society working without taxes. That's his problem.

I can absolutely imagine a society working without taxes. I just think it would be worse than the current system.
I think you'd see something like a plutocracy or a might makes right, kind of society. Simplified.

[NghtRppr]

And what you consider theft is what I see as payment for services rendered.

If that were true, I'd have the right to cancel these services. Stop dropping bombs using my tax money. Stop giving welfare checks to lazy parasites. Stop sending kids to be brainwashed by the state. I want these services to stop and I don't want to pay for them. By continuing to "render services" you're little more than a mafia Don that is rendering his protection "services" i.e. you're thief, a crook and nothing more.

[FreeMoney]

Now this just makes me sad. I've always considered you a level headed and rational person.
And what you consider theft is what I see as payment for services rendered. Agree about the rape part though.

Are there other areas of life where someone can provide services without permission and then demand payment without agreement? Is this behavior generally okay with you?

[NghtRppr]

Are there other areas of life where someone can provide services without permission and then demand payment without agreement? Is this behavior generally okay with you?

He's just going to say that remaining in a geographical region counts as implicit consent. Which leads us back to the point that remaining on a ship at sea isn't implicit consent when the only alternative is jumping in the ocean and drowning.

[JA37]

And what you consider theft is what I see as payment for services rendered.

If that were true, I'd have the right to cancel these services. Stop dropping bombs using my tax money. Stop giving welfare checks to lazy parasites. Stop sending kids to be brainwashed by the state. I want these services to stop and I don't want to pay for them. By continuing to "render services" you're little more than a mafia Don that is rendering his protection "services" i.e. you're thief, a crook and nothing more.

If the services were provided to you individually, but they aren't. They're provided to the group/community. Your community, in which you're a part, has decided that the services have value.

[JA37]

Are there other areas of life where someone can provide services without permission and then demand payment without agreement? Is this behavior generally okay with you?

He's just going to say that remaining in a geographical region counts as implicit consent. Which leads us back to the point that remaining on a ship at sea isn't implicit consent when the only alternative is jumping in the ocean and drowning.

You know, I actually agree with this.
Agree or die isn't a valid choice.

[NghtRppr]

If the services were provided to you individually, but they aren't. They're provided to the group/community. Your community, in which you're a part, has decided that the services have value.

So, if the community agrees to let Obama fuck them in the ass, even though I don't consent, it's not rape?

You know, I actually agree with this.
Agree or die isn't a valid choice.

That's what you're advocating. You suggested to someone to go live on a barge in the ocean yet, who can afford that? Where will fresh water come from? Food? Maybe it's not instant death like drowning is but it's not much better.

[JA37]

So, if the community agrees to let Obama fuck them in the ass, even though I don't consent, it's not rape?

Colourful example. However, it does go against article 3 in the declaration of human rights, which I hold in quite high regard.

That's what you're advocating. You suggested to someone to go live on a barge in the ocean yet, who can afford that? Where will fresh water come from? Food? Maybe it's not instant death like drowning is but it's not much better.

I was referring to something called seasteading, something that should go well with most anarchists/libertarians I think. Keep to international waters and you can live under any rule you want.
Grow food, purify water. There are technical solutions. I didn't say it was easy, nor affordable for most people, or practical. Just that it was a possibility.

[NghtRppr]

Colourful example. However, it does go against article 3 in the declaration of human rights, which I hold in quite high regard.

The declaration of human rights is just another set of rules created by another community. What if the global community agrees to get fucked in the ass but I don't, is that not rape?

Grow food, purify water. There are technical solutions. I didn't say it was easy, nor affordable for most people, or practical. Just that it was a possibility.

If I can't afford it then how is it possible? You might as well suggest that I build a moonbase and live there.

[JA37]

The declaration of human rights is just another set of rules created by another community. What if the global community agrees to get fucked in the ass but I don't, is that not rape?

I do believe it would be rape, yes. And you're right, it's just another set of rules.
Democracy, or its variants, aren't perfect. I never claimed it was, I do however think that all other alternatives are worse.
I can see benefits in anarchism, or whatever it is that you call that you're arguing for. I also see faults that I find it hard to live with.

If I can't afford it then how is it possible? You might as well suggest that I build a moonbase and live there.

It has to be available to you right now? This instant? Sorry, life doesn't work that way.

[NghtRppr]

I do believe it would be rape, yes.

Then the fact that X number of people declare Y is acceptable isn't the principle you're operating with. So, the fact that X number of people say they can steal from me and you think it's alright has to be based on something else other than "the community says so".

It has to be available to you right now? This instant? Sorry, life doesn't work that way.

Then you're back to the "agree or die" situation which you've already said isn't a real choice. In other words, because I have no choice, I haven't consented to anything. While I could go live on a moonbase or in the ocean if I were rich enough, I'm not. So, my staying put isn't consent.

[JA37]

Then the fact that X number of people declare Y is acceptable isn't the principle you're operating with. So, the fact that X number of people say they can steal from me and you think it's alright has to be based on something else other than "the community says so".

Actually it is the principle, but I do also acknowledge that there are some things that aren't up for a vote. Rape being one of them.

Then you're back to the "agree or die" situation which you've already said isn't a real choice. In other words, because I have no choice, I haven't consented to anything. While I could go live on a moonbase or in the ocean if I were rich enough, I'm not. So, my staying put isn't consent.

Paying taxes doesn't kill you. Don't be such a drama queen.
Seriously though, there are places to go which doesn't require that amount of riches. I don't belive they pay tax in Bahrain, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia, if my google-fu is strong. Apply for citizenship. They are states, but places where there isn't a state around tend to be run by bandits.


And you are given the tools to change the world around you, if you're not happy with those countries. Not right this instant, but you have the tools. You can even start an election about never having an election again.

[NghtRppr]

Actually it is the principle, but I do also acknowledge that there are some things that aren't up for a vote. Rape being one of them.

What principle guides you to abandon your principles?

I like how you can declare rape not up for vote but I can't declare theft not up for vote.

Seriously though, there are places to go which doesn't require that amount of riches. I don't belive they pay tax in Bahrain, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia, if my google-fu is strong. Apply for citizenship. They are states, but places where there isn't a state around tend to be run by bandits.

Again, how do I get there and how do I survive once there? How are these places better than the middle of the ocean?

[speeder]

Then the fact that X number of people declare Y is acceptable isn't the principle you're operating with. So, the fact that X number of people say they can steal from me and you think it's alright has to be based on something else other than "the community says so".

Actually it is the principle, but I do also acknowledge that there are some things that aren't up for a vote. Rape being one of them.

Then you're back to the "agree or die" situation which you've already said isn't a real choice. In other words, because I have no choice, I haven't consented to anything. While I could go live on a moonbase or in the ocean if I were rich enough, I'm not. So, my staying put isn't consent.

Paying taxes doesn't kill you. Don't be such a drama queen.
Seriously though, there are places to go which doesn't require that amount of riches. I don't belive they pay tax in Bahrain, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, and Saudi Arabia, if my google-fu is strong. Apply for citizenship. They are states, but places where there isn't a state around tend to be run by bandits.


And you are given the tools to change the world around you, if you're not happy with those countries. Not right this instant, but you have the tools. You can even start an election about never having an election again.

You assuming "taxes won't kill you" is kinda wrong.

I live in Brazil, where I live, I pay for my own security, education, roads, healthcare AND then I pay the taxes.

But there are not sufficient money to do that...

So I have the choices: Or I hand my money to government, and die with lack of money to pay other essential things not provided by the government (like food, housing, security, etc...) or I pay for the stuff I need, and risk getting killed by the government (or arrested, not much better...)



Also, as I said earlier in the thread, to live in Bahrein for example, you need 300.000 in the bank, those nice countries with low taxes, all of them are really hard to get into them, if it was possible to easily there, I am sure far less people would be complaining about taxes.

[JA37]

What principle guides you to abandon your principles?

I like how you can declare rape not up for vote but I can't declare theft not up for vote.

I'd say that anything that has to do with security of person isn't up for vote.
If it has to do with social interaction it can, as in things that affect a group or population.

Again, how do I get there and how do I survive once there? How are these places better than the middle of the ocean?

Because the choice isn't "agree or die", assuming we're still talking about jumping off a ship. If you mean seasteading instead I don't know if they're better, but more people live there already so it's been proved to be habitable. How you should survive? I don't know, you seem like a smart guy. You'll figure it out. How you get there? Save money, apply for citizenship, buy trip once you get it.

[benjamindees]

Do you suppose you could make a separate thread for your retarded "I own everything if you don't like it leave" philosophy and stop shitting up other threads with your endlessly-equivocating, moronic justifications for it?  Kthanx.

Because, I'm not going to spend the time to eviscerate your ridiculous logic unless I can just do it once and not ever have to see it again.

Frankly the rest of us should be charging you for psychological services, or family counseling or whatever.  If we sent you a bill, would you pay it?  Should we send it to the US Gov't instead and have the whole community pay for it?

On second thought, please don't answer that here.  Just make your own thread and the doctor will be with you shortly.

[JA37]

Do you suppose you could make a separate thread for your retarded "I own everything if you don't like it leave" philosophy and stop shitting up other threads with your endlessly-equivocating, moronic justifications for it?  Kthanx.

Because, I'm not going to spend the time to eviscerate your ridiculous logic unless I can just do it once and not ever have to see it again.

Frankly the rest of us should be charging you for psychological services, or family counseling or whatever.  If we sent you a bill, would you pay it?  Should we send it to the US Gov't instead and have the whole community pay for it?

On second thought, please don't answer that here.  Just make your own thread and the doctor will be with you shortly.

Don't think I ever said "I own everything". WE own everything perhaps, but that includes you. And actually it's not a philosophy and the suggestion came from someone here on the forums, although it was about their property. I just extended it to a country, but for some reason it stopped being valid then.

And I'm sorry that you feel that way, but perhaps you can draw some strength from all the "Taxes are theft" that also seem to show up everywhere. And do you really need counselling from having to read a different viewpoint?
I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong when it comes to world view, nor the opposite. But sometimes there's a little too much circle jerk in this forums, and not everyone think that taxes are theft and the government is the ultimate evil that is out to destroy humankind.
Admittedly I probably haven't spent as much time as you thinking about anarchistic philosophy. I learn by reading but so far all I've seen are vague hopes that things might be better and a love for anything that isn't a state.

Oh, and the patronizing tone is just juvenile.

[Anonymous]

Most of us believe we own ourselves and all of the labor we produce. We believe we have the right to sustain ourselves according to our own will. Simply put, taxes and government force infringe this.

Very simple. Very concise.

[JA37]

Most of us believe we own ourselves and all of the labor we produce. We believe we have the right to sustain ourselves according to our own will. Simply put, taxes and government force infringe this.

Very simple. Very concise.

Believe it or not but I actually agree with most of this. Agreed it's very simple, very concise and also imho very simplistic.

[NghtRppr]

WE own everything perhaps, but that includes you.

I subscribe to a different theory of property rights than you.