Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon who claims to have visited the afterlife

[NestEggNessy]

Are you saying this from experience or only by definition?  If I told you I meditated and left my body, would you tell me what I experienced wasn't real, even if I said it was?

Yes.  It is by definition, not real.

"Hallucinations involve sensing things while awake that appear to be real, but instead have been created by the mind."

You either have to accept that it was a hallucination, or decide that it wasn't a hallucination and was in fact real.

There is no such thing as a 'real hallucination'.

Do you accept that experience of the hallucination was real?

The experience was really created by the mind.  It existed.

It was not real.

So then youre saying something can exist without being real. With that logic we could infer that heaven exists through his "hallucination" of it. If we want to go down that route then we can say that every experience is created by the mind and therfore all experiences exist but are not real, i.e music, relationships, movies, conversations etc...

The big difference you seem to be misunderstanding is the source of the experience.  Was the experience caused by our interpretation of real external stimulus?  Or was it caused by the brain itself?

Here's another definition for you.  Words mean things you know...

"A hallucination, in the broadest sense of the word, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus. In a stricter sense, hallucinations are defined as perceptions in a conscious and awake state in the absence of external stimuli which have qualities of real perception, in that they are vivid, substantial, and located in external objective space."

i understand what youre saying about how hallucinations arent real in the sense that theyre not physically present so that others can verify their existence. Like you said, words have meanings and deeper implications, so in this case to hallucinate is a personal experience, much like being in deep thought, a trance, or dreaming. That being said you cant deny that those experiences mentioned exist in some way. The thoughts a person were thinking exist, the dream state a person was in last night existed, the state of mind of someone who is meditating exists. They exist because of real phenomenea such as someone who is dying from something real and in that time they bring this heaven thing into existence, nawmean?

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[dank]

I haven't really read any near death experiences, but I do remember, when I was pretty young, 7-8, a TV show was discussing the phenomena and describing it as going through a purple tunnel, including all life experiences and memories.  Of all the TV shows I've watched, I remember this one quite well.

I have seen tunnels of energy myself, with my eyes closed, or even with my eyes open.  I've seen them in the sky, on the wall, wherever, I saw energy manifesting into my reality.  One point, a couple years ago, I went through one of these tunnels in a meditative state.  A light arose, presumably, at the end of the tunnel and as I felt more energy, I shot through the hole.  Some form of astral projections.  I left my body and experienced another reality with red mountainous hills and some kind of grey creatures.  I believe fear led me to thinking it was some sort of hell type world, but this was a result of what I was believing.  I don't think there is any sort of hell, other than a mental state and what we manifest into reality, like war.

I can say from my experience, hallucinations are much more than perceived, for what I experienced was more real than our reality.  Hallucinations are another dimension.  And I think we all see them, to some extent, some more than others.

[MysteryMiner]

As you cannot disprove the existence of another reality, or afterlife, it's quite obstinate to disregard the possibility.  Your lack of spiritual experience does not justify lack of spiritual existence.

I can't prove for 100% that parallel universes, afterlife or god does not exist. For believers this means that inability to disprove is a proof of existence by itself. Also with my best efforts I probably will not be able to prove that You are not retard or faggot. So for believers this means that You must be both of them, right?

There is a great difference between believing and knowing.

[dank]

For believers this means that inability to disprove is a proof of existence by itself.

This is not true, you're assuming something for a broad range of people.  I believe in spirituality because I have experienced it.  Nothing supersedes experiences, not even knowledge or understanding.

[SysRun]

For believers this means that inability to disprove is a proof of existence by itself.

This is not true, you're assuming something for a broad range of people.  I believe in spirituality because I have experienced it.  Nothing supersedes experiences, not even knowledge or understanding.

Crazy Uncle Jeffery, is that you?

"Knowledge is in your heart in the 5th Dimension Gaia Ascention which will happen Dec. 21st 2012" (no bullshit) is what he says.

Oh, and he can communicate with mosquitos through the insects' antennae. Yeah, you've done your share of hard mind altering drugs.

[foggyb]

Here's another one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQDkCi-OIY

Tammy Leroux shot herself, had an afterlife experience, then returned to life in surgery, where she remembered every detail.

The best parts are in the middle, don't stop watching.

[dank]

For believers this means that inability to disprove is a proof of existence by itself.

This is not true, you're assuming something for a broad range of people.  I believe in spirituality because I have experienced it.  Nothing supersedes experiences, not even knowledge or understanding.

Crazy Uncle Jeffery, is that you?

"Knowledge is in your heart in the 5th Dimension Gaia Ascention which will happen Dec. 21st 2012" (no bullshit) is what he says.

Oh, and he can communicate with mosquitos through the insects' antennae. Yeah, you've done your share of hard mind altering drugs.

He's right.  Humans are evolving exponentially, we will hit a point in the near future when that mass shift in consciousness happens.  It's part of evolution.

[repentance]

"Knowledge is in your heart in the 5th Dimension Gaia Ascention which will happen Dec. 21st 2012" (no bullshit) is what he says.

So are they all planning to "ascend" Heaven's Gate style on 21 December?

[Atlas]

Here's another one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGQDkCi-OIY

Tammy Leroux shot herself, had an afterlife experience, then returned to life in surgery, where she remembered every detail.

The best parts are in the middle, don't stop watching.

She is of a very small minority that mentions a hell.

Now, in many hynotherapy sessions, there are mentions of individuals that exile themselves in solitude and shame after death because of a painful life. However, it is of the individual's own choice and desire.

[repentance]

Delusions of any kind are very real to those experiencing them.  That doesn't mean that a schizophrenic experiencing command hallucinations is tapping into some kind of cosmic consciousness or that aliens are really putting thoughts into the mind of someone experiencing a psychotic break.

[dank]

No, but their own consciousness is still bending reality by believing they're there.

[foggyb]

Delusions of any kind are very real to those experiencing them.  That doesn't mean that a schizophrenic experiencing command hallucinations is tapping into some kind of cosmic consciousness or that aliens are really putting thoughts into the mind of someone experiencing a psychotic break.

I think we can all tell the difference between  schizophrenic and someone who knows what they experienced.

Here's a video of a real schizophrenic, just to make the difference real clear:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35gcBL1ZwY4

[repentance]

No, but their own consciousness is still bending reality by believing they're there.

Which is all that's happening when you think your "soul" is tapping into cosmic consciousness - your mind is creating an illusion which is no more "enlightenment" than the command hallucinations of a schizophrenic.  

[dank]

That's exactly is what happens with life, your mind creates an illusion.

[foggyb]

No, but their own consciousness is still bending reality by believing they're there.

Which is all that's happening when you think your "soul" is tapping into cosmic consciousness - your mind is creating an illusion which is no more "enlightenment" than the command hallucinations of a schizophrenic.  

That is an assumption. We have no way to test for supernatural realities because science can't measure supernatural phenomena. That is a problem of science, not a problem of realities. Science is merely a tool, if you use the wrong tool for the job, of course you'll find nothing. Can't watch TV with a radio, that's one analogy I like to use.

Science is a learning field, where the tools used in science are continually being upgraded. It is a big mistake to discount the experiences of people that don't match your reality because we're too primitive in our technology to see past the end of our noses.

Only a short time ago, the study of subatomic particles was almost non-existent, almost entirely theoretical. But scientists kept an open mind and devised ways to detect the phenomena they predicted to exist. Today we can prove that subatomic particles exist, and look back at past scientific theory and chuckle at their ignorance.

[dank]

Nicely put.

[foggyb]

That's exactly is what happens with life, your mind creates an illusion.

An illusion is a distortion of the senses. So, how do you tell, Dank, that your theory of illusion, is not an illusion?

How can you trust your thoughts, if they are 100% wrong?

BOOM. That worldview blows itself up. It can't work.

[dank]

Yeah, your mind makes itself distort the senses, altering reality.  Reality is malleable with your mind, because we are spiritual beings.

[amencon]

Don't have a link, however I remember reading about a study of near death experiences.  The study found that most of the people who glimpsed the "afterlife" in these experiences were religious beforehand...

[Atlas]

Don't have a link, however I remember reading about a study of near death experiences.  The study found that most of the people who glimpsed the "afterlife" in these experiences were religious beforehand...

Most people are religious. Go figure. It doesn't take a study to deduce that.