Nick Szabo's Remarks about Bitcoin XT

[Kakmakr]

I think he might be one of the founding father's of Bitcoin. Szabo has always been out of the limelight and people like Gavin stole the show. I respect his need for privacy, but we need people like him to come forward and speak out if things are done or planned that might damage the technology.

His contributions and his views on the matter are in my view the only one that counts for something. He has been there from the start.

[Westin Landon Cox]

Nick Szabo was interviewed for Let's Talk Bitcoin Ep. 246 (released yesterday). At the end they discussed the block size debate and the Bitcoin XT fork. Here's a short video with excerpts where he talked about the Bitcoin XT fork:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4_pPkIbGw4

Youtube clip only has 39 views?!

I guess only 39 people use bitcoin these days.   

If you look on the letstalkbitcoin.com episode page there is almost 9,000 views already.

Yep. The whole interview was great. I made the video partly to help push people towards listening to the whole interview. Plus since the quotes I clipped are very near the end of the episode, it seemed possible that some people might've missed it.

I'm not some kind of "youtube celebrity." I make an occasional video as a hobby when I feel inspired. 39 views in a few days is high for me. It's more than some of my other videos have after months.

[BillyBobZorton]

I think he might be one of the founding father's of Bitcoin. Szabo has always been out of the limelight and people like Gavin stole the show. I respect his need for privacy, but we need people like him to come forward and speak out if things are done or planned that might damage the technology.

His contributions and his views on the matter are in my view the only one that counts for something. He has been there from the start.

Nick Szabo has for sure been working on blockchain technology, or playing with the idea of a cryptocurrency waaay before Bitcoin was released. He probably had it in mind for decades, but it was never done as good as it has been done with Bitcoin.
I find interesting the part of smart contracts, he mentions Ethereum. Maybe Ethereum will have a big place in the future? Right now it doesn't seem very inviting to buy. It has been crashing non stop since release.

[iCEBREAKER]

Nick Szabo was interviewed for Let's Talk Bitcoin Ep. 246 (released yesterday). At the end they discussed the block size debate and the Bitcoin XT fork. Here's a short video with excerpts where he talked about the Bitcoin XT fork:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4_pPkIbGw4

Here are two quotes:

Doing a contentious hard fork is not healthy. It's basically a 51% attack being justified through argument.

I'm just guessing to say that 75% is a large enough number that that forces the rest of the network comply. But if they don't...if you have an ongoing... This is essentially a civil war. It is technologically equivalent to a 51% attack what Hearn and Andresen are doing. And so you essentially have a civil war situation. It will certainly exercise all of Bitcoin's security features...let's put it that way...as any war would.

The full episode is available here:

https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-246-smart-contracts-with-nick-szabo

It was nice to hear a word from our sponsor.   

Nick is obviously unhappy with Gavin's governance coup and attempt to change Bitcoin's mission parameters.  There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

His (and Adam's) tone of late matches exactly that of the recent dev-list post from Satoshi, right down to the 'disappointed' theme.

But Bitcoin is stronger than ever thanks to XT's 'stress test.'

[monsanto]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

[brg444]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

Satoshi also mentions payment channels which are an integral part of Bitcoin. It's quite obvious the Bitcoin blockchain is not ideal nor desired for small casual transactions

[thejaytiesto]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

Satoshi also mentions payment channels which are an integral part of Bitcoin. It's quite obvious the Bitcoin blockchain is not ideal nor desired for small casual transactions

Where can I read Satoshi's quotes addressing the small transaction volume problem? I wonder if he predicted something like blockstream being built on top of Bitcoin to deal with small transactions. What has his view on this on-chain/off-chain duality? I must know.

[glub0x]

Where can I read Satoshi's quotes addressing the small transaction volume problem? I wonder if he predicted something like blockstream being built on top of Bitcoin to deal with small transactions. What has his view on this on-chain/off-chain duality? I must know.

In the introduction of his white paper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf he refers several times to small transactions and the high fees involved with chargeback...
There is also a few post of him on this forum where he states that the blocksize limits is provisory.
I'm not sure about his comments on offchain transaction that would be interesting to read.

[Kprawn]

The funny thing is, Szabo created the first type of Bitcoin network in 1998 with Bit Gold and nobody really saw his vision or took him seriously. They were seen as a bunch of geeks

having some Libertarian ideas and now when you think about this.... They were the pioneers and the people with the vision. If I had to choose a Bitcoin CEO, he would get my vote

any day. You can just feel the frustration in his voice... It must be hard on him to see this protocol being picked apart by the vultures.    {Banks}

[Blawpaw]

We should keep to the original Satoshi Nakamoto code! This is affecting credibility in bitcoin, the community and the whole idea itself.

Bitcoin XT is getting to be a very diplomatic method of achieving the 51% attack...

[iCEBREAKER]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

[CIYAM]

Both Adam Back and Nick Szabo have stated the same thing that I have been trying to point out in that Bitcoin should be first aimed at things like the remittance market (which it should be able to kill the competition in).

Yet still we hear the rabble wanting to pay for coffee's with BTC when it has failed to even make an inroad into the most obvious market it should be dominating.

When virtually no-one is being paid in BTC why on earth do people think it is important to pay for a coffee in BTC?

My guess is that most of the people screaming to have BTC payments for coffees probably don't even have enough BTC to pay for a coffee!

[iCEBREAKER]

The funny thing is, Szabo created the first type of Bitcoin network in 1998 with Bit Gold and nobody really saw his vision or took him seriously. They were seen as a bunch of geeks

having some Libertarian ideas and now when you think about this.... They were the pioneers and the people with the vision. If I had to choose a Bitcoin CEO, he would get my vote

any day. You can just feel the frustration in his voice... It must be hard on him to see this protocol being picked apart by the vultures.    {Banks}

Libertarian geek here.  I took Bit Gold seriously.

I'm happy to see this protocol being picked apart by the vulture banks.  Bitcoin will either make them honest, or destroy them in the attempt.   

The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".  -davout

[iCEBREAKER]

Both Adam Back and Nick Szabo have stated the same thing that I have been trying to point out in that Bitcoin should be first aimed at things like the remittance market (which it should be able to kill the competition in).

Yet still we hear the rabble wanting to pay for coffee's with BTC when it has failed to even make an inroad into the most obvious market it should be dominating.

When virtually no-one is being paid in BTC why on earth do people think it is important to pay for a coffee in BTC?

My guess is that most of the people screaming to have BTC payments for coffees probably don't even have enough BTC to pay for a coffee!

BTC's UX is still a non-starter for most migrant workers.  They don't have the free time, being very busy providing for their families back home and all.

The unbanked who would benefit the most are the least able to climb BTC's steep learning curve.

The wealthier ones have banking services and don't GAF.  And (rich or poor) Grandma can't use BTC to buy fertilizer back on the farm.

There are other edge cases for early adoption.  Besides the traditional sex/drugs/gambling, interesting attempts to close the loop from the bottom up are in the works.

We want change. And we’re getting it. We are seeing amazing innovation from the farmers of the world and when you bring bitcoin into the picture you have some real potential for a major civilization upgrade. This week, this ‘farmah from down undah‘ is helping the masses get their first Bitcoin. The more local businesses accepting Bitcoin means it is easier for locals to spend their Bitcoin with other locals, and it makes our region an attractive tourist destination for early adopters of this digital currency.

http://thebitcoinpodcast.com/episode-17/

Hookers, cocaine, poker....agriculture?!?   

[monsanto]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

Project much?

"Aug. 5, 2010: While I don’t think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall. … Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical. I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

I don't think Satoshi was as binary as you'd wish him to be.

[iCEBREAKER]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

Project much?

"Aug. 5, 2010: While I don’t think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall. … Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical. I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

I don't think Satoshi was as binary as you'd wish him to be.

Yes, I've used that quote several times.  Thanks for reminding us Satoshi spoke of micropayments "eventually."

If you use altcoins (ie alternative forks of Bitcoin) you can already make all the micropayments you can afford!  Wow, isn't that amazing?

It's barely been 5 years since Aug. 5, 2010; we're on the very early end of his estimate.  I'm sure we'll have sidechains, payment channels, and more in <10 years.  Have patience.  Or keep accusing me of projection, if that helps your tiny brain pass the time.   

Szabo uses the same big-B vs little-b bifurcation I do.  If you can't follow the logic, I'm very sorry.  It's been explained to exhaustion on several occasions.

[monsanto]

I've always been certain Szabo is Satoshi but even more convinced after hearing the pod-cast. He seems to go out of his way to refer to Satoshi in the third person. Also the fact that no-one really knows much about Szabo shows that here is an individual who is very careful about protecting his identity. I think also that Andreas knows that he is Satoshi - he's almost referential is his questions to Szabo.  

Well..no.
Satoshi's white paper propose a solution for small casual transaction, just read his introduction.
If Szabo is Satoshi then he changed his mind.

Yeah, I thought this was interesting too. I tend to fall in the Szabo is Satoshi camp but Szabo is really clear lately that a main goal wasn't small transactions which seems to be at odds with Satoshi's vision. So I agree he would have had to change his mind. Another possibilty could be Satoshi was Szabo and several other people, and the others disagreed on that point. 

There is reason why the Genesis Block mentions a second round of bank bailouts instead of, oh say, debit/credit surcharges for small purchases at Starbucks.

Satoshi created Bitcoin to stop command economy BS like bank bailouts, not because he was charged fifty cents extra for using his AMEX to buy a latte.

Uppercase-B Bitcoin (or lowercase in Szabo notation) the first viable and most secure ecash competes with gold and central banks.

Lowercase-b bitcoin (or uppercase in Szabo notation) the blockchain technology competes with Visa/Paypal/Square (via altcoins).

Bitcoin is global revolution against authoritarianism, not the next fucking Dwolla.

Project much?

"Aug. 5, 2010: While I don’t think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall. … Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical. I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

I don't think Satoshi was as binary as you'd wish him to be.

Yes, I've used that quote several times.  Thanks for reminding us Satoshi spoke of micropayments "eventually."

If you use altcoins (ie alternative forks of Bitcoin) you can already make all the micropayments you can afford!  Wow, isn't that amazing?

It's barely been 5 years since Aug. 5, 2010; we're on the very early end of his estimate.  I'm sure we'll have sidechains, payment channels, and more in <10 years.  Have patience.  Or keep accusing me of projection, if that helps your tiny brain pass the time.   

Szabo uses the same big-B vs little-b bifurcation I do.  If you can't follow the logic, I'm very sorry.  It's been explained to exhaustion on several occasions.

I forgive you. Now you've moved on to projecting a strawman argument you can fight against.  Take some deep breaths and calm down and you might see I never made a normative argument. But keep battling those illusions it's fun to watch. 

[iCEBREAKER]

Project much?

projecting

You keep accusing me of projecting, but never specify what is being projected.   

I guess you believe projection is some kind of devastating passive-aggressive critique, perhaps because you heard the term used in a Hollywood chick flick for a laugh line at some unpopular character's expense.

But as far as meaningless Freudian-Marxist psychobabble goes, projection accusations are bottom of the barrel.

As for "normative."  Son, don't play with critical theory until you've got a decent (ie better than absolute beginner) grip on basic Leftist jargon.   

And don't forget to enjoy your sophomore year!

[monsanto]

Project much?

projecting

You keep accusing me of projecting, but never specify what is being projected.   

I guess you believe projection is some kind of devastating passive-aggressive critique, perhaps because you heard the term used in a Hollywood chick flick for a laugh line at some unpopular character's expense.

But as far as meaningless Freudian-Marxist psychobabble goes, projection accusations are bottom of the barrel.

As for "normative."  Son, don't play with critical theory until you've got a decent (ie better than absolute beginner) grip on basic Leftist jargon.   

And don't forget to enjoy your sophomore year!

Who knew "project" and "normative" we're considered dem big compilicatable words  .  Here, I'll try to help you out. For example, someone who is desperate to impress people on bitcointalk might "project" that I was trying to impress them. Maybe just because they felt threatened by random words I used that they had trouble understanding. Hard to believe, but they might even get angry and construct multiple rambling posts on under some bizarre delusion that we were in an argument about what the blocksize should be. 

[MarketNeutral]

Both Adam Back and Nick Szabo have stated the same thing that I have been trying to point out in that Bitcoin should be first aimed at things like the remittance market (which it should be able to kill the competition in).

Yet still we hear the rabble wanting to pay for coffee's with BTC when it has failed to even make an inroad into the most obvious market it should be dominating.

When virtually no-one is being paid in BTC why on earth do people think it is important to pay for a coffee in BTC?

My guess is that most of the people screaming to have BTC payments for coffees probably don't even have enough BTC to pay for a coffee!

Aye.
You stole the words right out of my mouth, especially with the case of that stubborn 'cup of coffee' that people are so eager to purchase with bitcoins.

In five years of using bitcoins to purchase all kinds or goods and services, not once has it seemed important to me to purchase a cup of coffee or a similarly trivial item.

I suspect that many people who wish to purchase coffee with bitcoin are more interested in the novelty of the experience of using bitcoins to purchase something familiar. They're missing the big picture.

Szabo sees the big picture that bitcoin's function as a fungible trustless remittance system is at the heart of its price and value. Dr. Adam Back furthers the potential of and provides agency to the bitcoin protocol with his brilliant work on confidential transactions and sidechains. Absent satoshi, I defer to the experience of Szabo and Back over the more recent upstarts.