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Author Topic: Thanks to people who support 1-2 MB blocks - great idea u fools...  (Read 17062 times)
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September 19, 2015, 09:46:14 PM
 #301

Ah - the one about "If we raise the limit to 8mb, then blocks will automatically become 8mb OVERNIGHT!!" Dear god, wont someone think of the children blockchain!!

If that is the lie you choose to believe, then knock yourself out. Most intelligent people realise that blocks will grow in proportion to transaction volume.
It's called "concern trolling" here. It's a tactic of apologetics. Beware of the arsenal of fallacious arguments that follow.

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September 19, 2015, 09:54:31 PM
 #302

Ah - the one about "If we raise the limit to 8mb, then blocks will automatically become 8mb OVERNIGHT!!" Dear god, wont someone think of the children blockchain!!

If that is the lie you choose to believe, then knock yourself out. Most intelligent people realise that blocks will grow in proportion to transaction volume.
It's called "concern trolling" here. It's a tactic of apologetics. Beware of the arsenal of fallacious arguments that follow.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

The "sky is gonna fall" team accusing others of concern trolling, what irony!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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September 19, 2015, 10:03:05 PM
 #303


Lie?

Guess you've never heard of "supply creates its own demand". What if... you know... Fidelity switches that flip?

Of course being an intelligent person you recognize this but given that you are also a paid shill you wouldn't want people to think about this heh  Wink



You have posted ~60 times in the last 24 hours alone.  And you have the gall to accuse me of being a 'paid' shill?    Grin Grin

Forget fidelity - its a non issue. Anyway, how will the block size limit help? LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it. So, lets drop the shit scary-scary tactics.

We must make money worse as a commodity if we wish to make it better as a medium of exchange
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September 19, 2015, 10:12:11 PM
 #304


Lie?

Guess you've never heard of "supply creates its own demand". What if... you know... Fidelity switches that flip?

Of course being an intelligent person you recognize this but given that you are also a paid shill you wouldn't want people to think about this heh  Wink



You have posted ~60 times in the last 24 hours alone.  And you have the gall to accuse me of being a 'paid' shill?    Grin Grin

Forget fidelity - its a non issue. Anyway, how will the block size limit help? LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it. So, lets drop the shit scary-scary tactics.

 Cheesy

Block size limit helps by keeping spam transactions off the blockchain. Spam is defined by transactions which cannot pay for blockchain security. As I've repeatedly stated a majority of Bitcoin holders are not concerned with making transactions so this is really a non-issue.

What hard fork are you talking about anyway? LN is not the sole off-chain solution btw. Lookahere: www.stashcrypto.com

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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September 19, 2015, 11:57:14 PM
 #305

LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it.
Hard fork? Why?
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September 20, 2015, 12:36:47 AM
 #306

BIP100 is at 61% hashing power.

where do you get the idea that BIP000 is winning?

BIP100 is just an unfinished idea, and even if it gets finalized and coded there's almost no chance the socioeconomic majority will accept it.

BIP100 was just a bone thrown to shut up the yapping Gavin fanboys while the adults work on real ways to scale, which don't rely on bloated blocks trading decentralization for coffee purchases.

If BIP100 comes close to being implemented, the higher media profile will generate controversy ('zomg all-powerful miners?!?') sufficient to be self-defeating.  Nobody except a few holdout Redditards want another Great Schism (and 20% price drop).

It's a stalemate (technically, a forced draw or infinite move cycle).



Thus 1MB always wins by default.  Welcome to BIP000.   Cool


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September 20, 2015, 12:21:30 PM
 #307

LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it.
Hard fork? Why?


What hard fork are you talking about anyway? LN is not the sole off-chain solution btw. Lookahere: www.stashcrypto.com

Any transaction behaviour changes will require a hard-fork ( all nodes must upgrade to enforce change, as previously invalid tx'x will now be valid in the new version) For side chains or LN to ever become useful, they need to implement changes to transaction types (specifically around the sighashes) similar to what was done for P2SH - except that P2SH got around the hard fork requirement by simply re-purposing an existing OP. I dont think they will getaway with that for side chains.

We must make money worse as a commodity if we wish to make it better as a medium of exchange
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September 20, 2015, 12:39:21 PM
 #308

LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it.
Hard fork? Why?


What hard fork are you talking about anyway? LN is not the sole off-chain solution btw. Lookahere: www.stashcrypto.com

Any transaction behaviour changes will require a hard-fork ( all nodes must upgrade to enforce change, as previously invalid tx'x will now be valid in the new version) For side chains or LN to ever become useful, they need to implement changes to transaction types (specifically around the sighashes) similar to what was done for P2SH - except that P2SH got around the hard fork requirement by simply re-purposing an existing OP. I dont think they will getaway with that for side chains.
As far as I'm aware, new SIGHASH types don't necessarily require a hard fork, re-purposing an existing opcode can indeed work.
https://github.com/scmorse/bitcoin-misc/blob/master/sighash_proposal.md
https://github.com/scmorse/bitcoin-misc/blob/master/sighash_proposal_v2.md
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September 20, 2015, 02:20:11 PM
 #309

LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it.
Hard fork? Why?


What hard fork are you talking about anyway? LN is not the sole off-chain solution btw. Lookahere: www.stashcrypto.com

Any transaction behaviour changes will require a hard-fork ( all nodes must upgrade to enforce change, as previously invalid tx'x will now be valid in the new version) For side chains or LN to ever become useful, they need to implement changes to transaction types (specifically around the sighashes) similar to what was done for P2SH - except that P2SH got around the hard fork requirement by simply re-purposing an existing OP. I dont think they will getaway with that for side chains.
As far as I'm aware, new SIGHASH types don't necessarily require a hard fork, re-purposing an existing opcode can indeed work.
https://github.com/scmorse/bitcoin-misc/blob/master/sighash_proposal.md
https://github.com/scmorse/bitcoin-misc/blob/master/sighash_proposal_v2.md

Two key words from your reply: "Necessarily" and "Can".

I already implied that this is possible - but it is certainly not desitable.

I'm not aware of the IRC that stephen mentions, but are you saying that Greg supports this method of enabling LN-like functionality? From a software design perspective its not a good idea to hack the changes into sighash, when the better solution is to split out the CHECKSIG/CHECKMULTISIG OPs to new op codes that would obviate the need for new sighash flags. That way the transactions would be an integral part of the design, instead of a shoehorn into an existing design that was never intended to support them. Bear in mind also that convoluted multisigs with arrays of sighash flags will lead us back to the signature bloat that P2SH was trying to address.

Sidechains/LN are important concepts for the future expansion of bitcoin, but introducing them via a kludge would mortgage their future stability and extensibility.

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September 20, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
 #310

Quote
I already implied that this is possible - but it is certainly not desitable.
I don't see that in your post. You stated that "any transaction behaviour changes will require a hard-fork" and "LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it", hence my answer. Whether it's desirable from an engineering perspective is a different domain. Hard fork is not required (but may be desirable), that's what I wanted to say.

And, given the strong preference for soft forks among the core devs, I consider it more likely to be a soft fork change.
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September 20, 2015, 03:44:55 PM
 #311

Quote
I already implied that this is possible - but it is certainly not desitable.
I don't see that in your post. You stated that "any transaction behaviour changes will require a hard-fork" and "LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it", hence my answer. Whether it's desirable from an engineering perspective is a different domain. Hard fork is not required (but may be desirable), that's what I wanted to say.

And, given the strong preference for soft forks among the core devs, I consider it more likely to be a soft fork change.

Its possible to soft fork it, but it would be very poor software practice to do so.

I've only seen Greg speak about this once, and he seemed pretty resigned to the fact that bitcoin needs significant changes to transacion handling to support sidechain-like functionality. To do this as a sighash flag hack would be short sighted.

But I still contend (and qualify), a well designed enabling of SC/LN-like functionality will require a hard fork.

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September 20, 2015, 03:50:13 PM
 #312

Quote
I already implied that this is possible - but it is certainly not desitable.
I don't see that in your post. You stated that "any transaction behaviour changes will require a hard-fork" and "LN is still in the fantasyware stage, requiring a hard fork in Bitcoin before they can even begin to implement it", hence my answer. Whether it's desirable from an engineering perspective is a different domain. Hard fork is not required (but may be desirable), that's what I wanted to say.

And, given the strong preference for soft forks among the core devs, I consider it more likely to be a soft fork change.

Its possible to soft fork it, but it would be very poor software practice to do so.

I've only seen Greg speak about this once, and he seemed pretty resigned to the fact that bitcoin needs significant changes to transacion handling to support sidechain-like functionality. To do this as a sighash flag hack would be short sighted.

But I still contend (and qualify), a well designed enabling of SC/LN-like functionality will require a hard fork.
That's fair, I see your point. And it would be good if we could combine this with a blocksize limit hardfork, though it would be more complicated.
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September 20, 2015, 07:47:18 PM
Last edit: September 20, 2015, 08:04:28 PM by coalitionfor8mb
 #313

After having just noticed and read the "Measuring Decentralization" article by Paul Sztorc (thanks to RoadTrain's signature), I must admit that there are more (hidden) variables to Bitcoin's success equation than what's available on the surface.

One of those is the ability to run a node over the Tor network, which I largely disregarded (as not being a Tor user myself) in my previous considerations. Although, it's unclear whether the ability to validate blockchain anonymously would continue to play an important role in Bitcoin's future, it definitely has been a measurable part of Bitcoin's successful past.

Second, my main argument for block size increase was related to not letting the competition get ahead while maintaining similar properties to Bitcoin. However, considering the current state of affairs and some reasonable arguments of why this would be hard (though not impossible) to achieve in principle, I'm concluding that there is no sense of urgency in dealing with the issue.

Third and probably the most important of all, as we are considering the idea of rising but keeping the limit (and I'm definitely a pro-limit guy), we must let the current one do its job! What I'm saying is that if the original 1MB limit put there by the founder himself doesn't hold any water if pushed ever so slightly, then what can be expected from any other limitation we agree upon down the road. And Bitcoin without the limit on block size would begin sliding in the direction from where it would become impossible to pull back.



Now, with that in mind, I'm still very positive about increasing the block size limit to 8MB. The only uncertainty that remained unaddressed up until now was "when" and it seems that we can still play a waiting game, while working out a solid plan to scale Bitcoin with all things considered.

What happens if we (small bitcoiners) refuse to accept the change within a year, for example? Are large miners, exchanges and payment processors going to come together and overthrow the current rules? Can they do that? What are our options then? We can come here and shout at each other and show how pissed we are, of course, but it turns out that the only action that matters in the situations like these would be to download the software, setup and run a full node at home with the rules that allow you to continue to do that. And, I guess, the current rules are the only ones which satisfy that condition.

What else can happen? Businesses can divert their attention to competing alts with similar properties and begin pumping them instead. However, the network effect and the first mover advantage of Bitcoin would likely play some tricks there and the gravity of the original invention would eventually pull them back. In addition to that, SHA256 miners cannot easily switch to any other PoW coin in the TOP10 list, as those use different hashing algos, so they will stay as well.

Though the miners are the only ones who can decide whether to mine on the original chain or the one with bigger blocks, it's the majority of users and large holders who can make the new chain nearly worthless if they coherently decide to reject it, but as recent debates show people aren't in agreement and often hold potential profit considerations over network's fundamental properties.



Now, having laid that out, I'm still positive (though not certain) that 8MB blocks should be possible by 2020 over home networks in the most developed countries around the world and we can keep that as a good scaling target going forward. Whether we jump straight to 8MB at some point in time or insist on a smoother 2-4-8 approach depends on how much risk we are willing to take in the dimension of "keeping the majority of full nodes at home <-> keeping the network attractive to large businesses <-> keeping the network attractive for internal competition".

As the closest PoW competitor to Bitcoin allows to push 4x the transactions (in theory) there is no point in increasing the limit to anything that is at least twice that (to justify the risk of a hard fork), because (in my view) it's the competition from similar systems that is the real driving factor for a change. If it's shown that altcoins cannot increase their effective volumes, while Bitcoin maintains the current limit, then they present no real threat to Bitcoin at all. If they do begin gaining momentum as transactional mediums and as a result increase their overall capitalizations, then Bitcoin might need to react accordingly and derive the timing for its transition from the speed at which competitors are closing the gap.

All in all, the question still remains.
Will Bitcoin stay at home or move out into the unknown, face the uncertainty, survive and redefine itself?
We all know where "Gr8ness Awaits", but we don't know "When".
Take your time, gentlemen! Smiley
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September 20, 2015, 08:08:07 PM
 #314

@coalitionfor8mb

Kudos for forming a well-thought-out position. However I think you address the "competition thing" mostly from a single perspective - that is transaction throughput. Bitcoin is competitive against all traditional Paypal- or Ripple-style systems because of its unique property as a decentralized currency that ensures full ownership without interference. Compared to all altcoins it has the by far the biggest node network, hence the best security. For an altcoin becoming a serious threat to Bitcoin it would have to offer a lot more than just higher transaction throughput.

I agree that some scaling of the maximum blocksize will have to be done in future. But only in a sensible way and in addition to secondary-layer Bitcoin technology for microtransactions. This way decentralization can be preserved, which is the very core of Bitcoin's value.

ya.ya.yo!

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September 20, 2015, 09:28:55 PM
 #315

@coalitionfor8mb

Kudos for forming a well-thought-out position. However I think you address the "competition thing" mostly from a single perspective - that is transaction throughput. Bitcoin is competitive against all traditional Paypal- or Ripple-style systems because of its unique property as a decentralized currency that ensures full ownership without interference. Compared to all altcoins it has the by far the biggest node network, hence the best security. For an altcoin becoming a serious threat to Bitcoin it would have to offer a lot more than just higher transaction throughput.

I agree that some scaling of the maximum blocksize will have to be done in future. But only in a sensible way and in addition to secondary-layer Bitcoin technology for microtransactions. This way decentralization can be preserved, which is the very core of Bitcoin's value.

ya.ya.yo!

It is still unclear to me how a secondary layer would be decentralized and trustless.  Undecided

Can anyone explain?

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September 20, 2015, 10:11:07 PM
 #316

It is still unclear to me how a secondary layer would be decentralized and trustless.  Undecided

Can anyone explain?

http://lightning.network/

https://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gfqtIl48Ho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twynh6xIKUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE_elgnIw3M


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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September 20, 2015, 10:12:08 PM
 #317

This is just coming down to selling out for the mainstream to make more sales even if you end up with a shitty product, or staying as true as posible to your original idea without compromising it in order to make the corporations happy.
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September 20, 2015, 10:16:12 PM
 #318



--links--

Uh, thanks for the links but I'm looking for a concise explanation of how a second layer could be decentralized and trustless.
Couple of paragraphs.  Anyone?

 

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September 20, 2015, 10:27:54 PM
 #319



--links--

Uh, thanks for the links but I'm looking for a concise explanation of how a second layer could be decentralized and trustless.
Couple of paragraphs.  Anyone?

 

There is no such thing as trustless, even if I find myself using the term often it really is a misnomer.

The more correct term is trust minimizing.

Second layers might involve a bit more trust but will come with order of magnitude more utility.

Do you absolutely need the security of Bitcoin's blockchain for your everyday transaction?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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September 20, 2015, 11:40:41 PM
Last edit: September 22, 2015, 03:41:12 PM by coalitionfor8mb
 #320

Kudos for forming a well-thought-out position.

Thanks!
Just thought that it was time for me to "raise the bar" and look deeper into the matters.  Cheesy



In order for us to agree on how to move forward with Bitcoin, we need to first and foremost understand how it works.
But we haven't gone through the whole cycle yet, so we are still figuring it out.

If the idea of the limit is there, then it must be active during a certain stage of its operation.
It looks like the "push-pull" engine analogy is a good way to look at it.

In the initial phase the limit "pulls" us, when we reach it we "push" against it for some time, then the whole cycle repeats itself on a higher level.
That's how "large blocks" and "small blocks" are actually different stages of the same process, we can (and need to) have both!

We are now entering the "pressurization" phase and should therefore be sitting there for quite some time in order for the original limit to prove itself as a workable idea in general.

If my suspicions are correct we are running a star, gentlemen, a freaking star!
Let the star of Bitcoin shine the brightest! Grin
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