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Author Topic: I questioned the "Bitcoin dev team" (Andresen & Co.) on complying with AML laws.  (Read 6512 times)
Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 06:33:52 PM
 #1

It seems mum is the word. How they will react when they get a court order or executive order of any kind is anybody's guess. It's been made clear in court precedent that digital currencies with monetary value are subject to AML and other laws when developed or distributed on US territory. The Bitcoind software development, as it stands, may be compelled to comply through software patches or ceasing activities.

Although #bitcoin-dev supposedly is a open and transparent channel of the Bitcoind project, people were threatened for discussing a pertinent topic regarding development. Very suspicious.

[13:23] <agent8423> when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:24] <@jgarzik> their choice, and it helps full nodes
[13:24] <BlueMatt> jgarzik: uhhh...no its not
[13:24] <kjj_> ugh.
[13:24] <kjj_> agent8423: can't you leave that shit on the forums where it belongs?
[13:24] <@jgarzik> agent8423: offtopic for #bitcoin-dev
[13:24] <agent8423> but youre developers for Bitcoin? who am i supposed to ask?
[13:25] <gmaxwell> agent8423: uh. You're confused. There isn't anything like that we could do; nor are there any laws someone should rationally expect to be applicable there. Go ask coal mining equiment makers about their conformance with 'antimoney laundering laws'. Smiley
[13:25] == ThomasV_ [~ThomasV@200.180.97.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #bitcoin-dev
[13:25] <BlueMatt> jgarzik: its fine if an individual has a need for it and does it, and if its mentioned as an option, but it will no doubt be mentioned as heres how ALL users should get started, which is horrible ux and makes it all seem as poor as it is
[13:25] <Luke-Jr> I would appreciate if anyone can provide code reviews of new coinbase-creation code, especially the base58 parsing: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=78192.msg1267851#msg1267851
[13:25] <kjj_> agent8423: it has been asked and answered a million times on the forums.  the government can ask us to change math, but we still can't do it
[13:25] <Luke-Jr> (the "code" link has the full diff)
[13:25] <MC1984> BlueMatt is right
[13:25] == denisx [~denis@91-65-138-255-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #bitcoin-dev
[13:26] <agent8423> kjj_: you can release software that complies. you may have to fork the chain but you will have to.
[13:26] <Luke-Jr> agent8423: Bitcoin is just cash. AML laws are for financial instutition
[13:26] <agent8423> we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] <MC1984> wary of hacky this becoming de facto standard procedure
[13:26] <@jgarzik> Luke-Jr: bitcoins are digital messages, not cash Smiley
[13:26] <kjj_> agent8423: math is math.  congress can't change math.
[13:27] <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'm simplifying :p
[13:27] <agent8423> schumer doesn't think so
[13:27] == mode/#bitcoin-dev [+o BlueMatt] by ChanServ
[13:27] <gmaxwell> agent8423: in any case, your question isn't concrete enough to form a meaningful answer.
[13:27] <@BlueMatt> next person to mention aml gets kicked
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October 12, 2012, 06:51:24 PM
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It doesn't matter. Any AML crap that goes into the Satoshi client will get stripped out in other forks.
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October 12, 2012, 07:24:52 PM
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Although #bitcoin-dev supposedly is a open and transparent channel of the Bitcoind project, people were threatened for discussing a pertinent topic regarding development. Very suspicious.

Troll much?

First, it wasn't an honest question, since you know the answer very well, or at least you should since it has already been answered it in a good fraction of the 94 threads you've started since you un-banning.  Second, it really is off topic in that channel.  Third, no one was threatened with anything more than enforcement of the channel policy.

[13:23] <agent8423> when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:25] <kjj_> agent8423: it has been asked and answered a million times on the forums.  the government can ask us to change math, but we still can't do it
[13:26] <agent8423> kjj_: you can release software that complies. you may have to fork the chain but you will have to.
[13:26] <agent8423> we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] <kjj_> agent8423: math is math.  congress can't change math.

For those of you not sure how bitcoin works, you "spend" bitcoins by giving the proof to an equation.  The equation will keep working no matter what congress says or does.

Worst case, everyone starts using TOR.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 07:31:13 PM
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Although #bitcoin-dev supposedly is a open and transparent channel of the Bitcoind project, people were threatened for discussing a pertinent topic regarding development. Very suspicious.

Troll much?

First, it wasn't an honest question, since you know the answer very well, or at least you should since it has already been answered it in a good fraction of the 94 threads you've started since you un-banning.  Second, it really is off topic in that channel.  Third, no one was threatened with anything more than enforcement of the channel policy.

[13:23] <agent8423> when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:25] <kjj_> agent8423: it has been asked and answered a million times on the forums.  the government can ask us to change math, but we still can't do it
[13:26] <agent8423> kjj_: you can release software that complies. you may have to fork the chain but you will have to.
[13:26] <agent8423> we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] <kjj_> agent8423: math is math.  congress can't change math.

For those of you not sure how bitcoin works, you "spend" bitcoins by giving the proof to an equation.  The equation will keep working no matter what congress says or does.

Worst case, everyone starts using TOR.

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?
Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 07:33:55 PM
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It doesn't matter. Any AML crap that goes into the Satoshi client will get stripped out in other forks.

It's even easier than that! Simply refuse to update your client with rules you disagree with.
That won't matter if the rules aren't disclosed and the vast majority of all Bitcoin users accept the update. Your coins would then be subject to their jurisdiction.
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October 12, 2012, 07:36:13 PM
 #6

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret?  Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen.  But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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kjj
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October 12, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
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And for the record, when everyone thinks you're crazy, it isn't proof of some big conspiracy.  We might have all just realized on our own that you are crazy.

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Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
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Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret?  Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen.  But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.
The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in a similar fashion.
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October 12, 2012, 07:54:28 PM
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Is that a joke?

Bitcoin is basic maths. Making laws to change how Bitcoins work is like making laws to change how gravity work.
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October 12, 2012, 07:58:24 PM
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Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret?  Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen.  But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.
The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in a similar fashion.

Ok, so in your fantasy, the gestapo has rounded up all of the devs and pool operators, and tells them that they need to secretly change the protocol or their dogs will be killed.  What then?  What possible change do you imagine they could actually do?  Be specific.

You know, if you'd put like 10% of your forum trolling effort into learning how the system really works, you be so paranoid about it.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 08:12:35 PM
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Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret?  Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen.  But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.
The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in a similar fashion.

Ok, so in your fantasy, the gestapo has rounded up all of the devs and pool operators, and tells them that they need to secretly change the protocol or their dogs will be killed.  What then?  What possible change do you imagine they could actually do?  Be specific.

You know, if you'd put like 10% of your forum trolling effort into learning how the system really works, you be so paranoid about it.

Hidden fees, tracking capabilities, confiscation capabilities, inflation capabilities, backdoors, etc.

Of course these would eventually be discovered; however, by then it would be too late. It would tear the currency to oblivion and small sects.
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October 12, 2012, 08:29:56 PM
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It would tear the currency to oblivion and small sects.
You seem to be trying to do that already, so what are you worried about?

FWIW, I don't have a dog.

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October 12, 2012, 08:35:32 PM
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Once again, Atlas asks a question and ignores any answers given.


[13:25] <gmaxwell> agent8423: uh. You're confused. There isn't anything like that we could do; nor are there any laws someone should rationally expect to be applicable there. Go ask coal mining equiment makers about their conformance with 'antimoney laundering laws'. Smiley


Claiming "mum's the word" is a blatant misrepresentation of what was said.  Gmaxwell gave a perfectly valid answer.  He ignored the answer because it doesn't fit into his conspiracy theories about the dev team.  He's trying to turn a non-issue into a controversy: it's distracting and a waste of everyone's time.

I think Atlas should be banned again.

I am a consultant providing services to CoinLab, Inc.
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October 12, 2012, 08:36:46 PM
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Hidden fees, tracking capabilities, confiscation capabilities, inflation capabilities, backdoors, etc.
I like people trolling, but can you please switch on your brain before trolling.
It becomes so boring otherwise....

Anything you are proposing here is bound to draw from an existing balance on some addres. For that to happen, you need the cooperation of the person controlling that address (i.e. the private key) and you need the cooperation of the whole network to confirm that manipulated transaction. How can you imagine such a thing goes unnoticed?
Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 08:41:12 PM
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Hidden fees, tracking capabilities, confiscation capabilities, inflation capabilities, backdoors, etc.
I like people trolling, but can you please switch on your brain before trolling.
It becomes so boring otherwise....

Anything you are proposing here is bound to draw from an existing balance on some addres. For that to happen, you need the cooperation of the person controlling that address (i.e. the private key) and you need the cooperation of the whole network to confirm that manipulated transaction. How can you imagine such a thing goes unnoticed?

For the former, there are sneakier ways of manipulation.

As for the latter, it can be done through apathy in most of the mining community along with the dev team assuring any skeptics that it's all "conspiracy theories".
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October 12, 2012, 08:43:25 PM
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I like people trolling, but can you please switch on your brain before trolling.
It becomes so boring otherwise....

+1

I think Atlas should be banned again.

-1
Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 08:48:29 PM
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It doesn't matter. Any AML crap that goes into the Satoshi client will get stripped out in other forks.

It's even easier than that! Simply refuse to update your client with rules you disagree with.
That won't matter if the rules aren't disclosed and the vast majority of all Bitcoin users accept the update. Your coins would then be subject to their jurisdiction.

Yes, of course. No one in the world except the current dev team can read code. I forgot.
Very few people can read code completely after release.
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October 12, 2012, 08:56:30 PM
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Very few people can read code completely after release.

If only there was some tool that would highlight changes and provide annotation and discussion...

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October 12, 2012, 08:58:20 PM
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Is that a joke?

Bitcoin is basic maths. Making laws to change how Bitcoins work is like making laws to change how gravity work.

Guns and bullets run on basic chemistry and physics.

Do you suppose that a legislature might make laws (which might be commonly, if imperfectly) enforced regarding the possession and use of guns and bullets?

Do you suppose that a person who manufactured and sold guns or ammunition might at some point find it helpful to be aware of those laws?

Note to the feebleminded: I have a lot of guns and bullets. Molon labe. I believe the Second Amendment protects an individual RKBA. I am not arguing that guns should be more regulated. This post is not about gun control.

This post is pointing out that governments attempt to, and with varying degrees of success, regulate items and processes which operate on basic physical or mathematical laws or processes which are themselves beyond the legislature's reach.

If that observation is insufficient, you might consider whether or not governments have attempted to regulate the growing and processing of certain plants, or of relatively simple chemical reactions/transformations that can be applied to ordinary chemical compounds. Those attempts have obviously been less than wholly successful; but they have certainly had a significant impact on people interested in those plants and those chemicals, to the extent that many people who would like to use those things do not, and others incur significant costs adapting their operations to the the risk of (imperfect) intervention.
Atlas
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October 12, 2012, 09:12:01 PM
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Very few people can read code completely after release.

If only there was some tool that would highlight changes and provide annotation and discussion...

Andresen will always use Github. The releases on sourceforge will always reflect the code.
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