Are BanxShares as good as GAW Paycoin?

[bigmanintown]

The Banx wallet has been available for any one to use for over six months here: https://github.com/Banx-Capital/BANX-qt

[ByronP]

1. Any exchange can pickup the wallet and open a market any time they want.
2. Gliss does not give us any special treatment in fact we have had to make many adjustments to ensure transparency. I think a lot of people misunderstand what a market cap actually is.
3. We try not to but we put a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and cash out so it stings a bit when people yell scam and take statements out of context.
4. We do not manipulate anything, we do have pricing limits which I understand can be frustrating but please see #1.

If anyone would like me to answer any questions personally please hit me up on skype (info@atomic-trade.com) or feel free to text or call me 1-609-389-4306 (EST USA).

Mark. Can you not see how keeping banx in just your exchange appears to be some form of manipulation?

Also, how much did you bribe Gliss at coinmarketcap to keep your centralized asset in the top 10.

Maybe you shouldnt take our criticism as anything personal. After the whole mt gox fiasco it should be understood that things that feel fishy will make our hair bristle.

Allow proper trading of your asset without the actions that are seen as manipulative and then well talk

Great work here. Thank you for posting.

I think most people could see it was fairly obvious that it was basically scam/medium to long term con-job from the start. But there are a lot of people in this scene who often get taken advantage of and having a specific post like this where you point everything out is very useful and will hopefully save people some money.

Was really surprised that Bitshares was willing to associate with them. Shocked actually. It's one thing to have an open platform where anyone can use it, but it's another to publicly associate with something like this. Bitshares marketing constantly leaves me scratching my head wondering what they are thinking.

As a relatively long time BitShares community member, I do not remotely trust BanxShares.  If it is a scam, I don't know why they'd move it onto an open platform they do not control, but I guess we can wait and see what they do with it.  Anything they do to manipulate their token supply will be more transparent than it is now.  It's not like we can stop them from using our chain since it is an open platform.

As for public association between BitShares and BanxShares, BitShares has historically had great technology/developers and horrible marketing.  More people and businesses are just now beginning to seriously notice BitShares, and I think BitShares marketers are thrilled to announce any business endorsing the BitShares chain as a superior platform and moving onto it.  I agree they should be more careful not to let that come across as endorsement of anything they have no reason to believe is legitimate.

I have resisted replying to any part of this thread up until now. And my policy of responding to trolls posting total inaccuracies and many quotes out of context will remain the same. I don't respond to them.

But I would like to address your specific post. I would like to say that we are always looking for ways to build more transparency to ease the healthy skepticism that this community has toward almost every competing asset.  So our forthcoming move to BitShares helps to address that essential trust issue by making our every move more auditable.

[runpaint]

The Banx wallet has been available for any one to use for over six months here: https://github.com/Banx-Capital/BANX-qt

But it only pays dividends if it's deposited at Banx.io, so why would anyone keep it in their own wallet?

Are there actually any users who use a Banx wallet?  Anyone?  I can't find a richlist or a block explorer.

I did find this Bitcoin address that's supposed to be Banx.io's -

https://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/Banx.io

Looks like you received some transactions from C-Cex, Bleutrade, Cryptsy, Cryptonator, Bittrex, Poloniex, Huobi, BTCJam, BetCoin, BitVC, Bitfinex, Cex.io, MoonBit, Coin-Swap, Bter, Allcrypt, Paymium, Mintpal, etc.

And congrats on the .00014BTC from Faucetbox.com, but it looks like you were getting bigger drips last month.

And where did you send BTC?  Over .3BTC to C-Cex, mostly on January 18, which is after you forked to invalidate all the BANX in their accounts and said they hacked your blockchain.  Is that supposed to be a dividend payout?  Because there were other transactions, and they weren't on a regular monthly schedule. 

On October 5, over 2BTC - more than half the wallet - to CryptoTrade.com.  Was that a dividend payout? 

Did NitrogenSports gambling site have a .6BTC dividend payout, in July 2014? 

In June there was .62BTC sent to CryptoStocks.com;  maybe that, and the payments to MCXNow and MintPal, gave someone the idea for BanxShares?

Looks like this Bitcoin wallet was in use for awhile before Banx.io existed.  Unfortunately, it continued to be used for gambling after it was associated with the addresses for Banx.io.

This wallet, since the launch of Banx.io, also sent funds to Mintpal, Bleutrade, Poloniex, Bittrex, QuadrigaCX, BitX, OKCoin, CoinPayments.net, AllCoin, AllCrypt, Comkort, Coin-Swap, LocalBitcoins, BitKonan, YoBit, SatoshiMines, TheRockTrading, Rollin.io, BitVC, BTC-e, BTCJam, Bter, Cryptsy, SWCPoker.eu, Anonibet.com, HashNest, Paymium, CloudBet, AnoniBet, BetCoin.ag, PrimeDice.com, SatoshiBet, CoinRoyale, FortuneJack, Dice.Bitco.in, EvolutionMarket, and AgoraMarket.

Is someone using investor funds to buy altcoins, play online poker, and buy illegal drugs over TOR?

[ByronP]

I have no information on that wallet (the old one you reference transactions from) I only can speak on the current one (Feb 2015 and on I believe). We have no way of paying dividends to coins that are in a private wallet or on another exchange. If you know of a solution please tell. Hopefully we can help solve this when we switch to BTS network. You can deposit them into a banx.io account receive your payout then transfer them out again if you wish (although I agree its an unnecessary hassle to do so).

We don't track what our customers do with there funds so if someone decides to go and gamble that's there business. I and I alone have had control of the wallets since Feb 2015 and Banx as a company has maybe sent out 2 transactions from the exchange in that time, none of which were related to gambling or anything of the like (not including what we send to cold storage which is a project I am still working on to make into a service for account holders to use).

The Banx wallet has been available for any one to use for over six months here: https://github.com/Banx-Capital/BANX-qt

But it only pays dividends if it's deposited at Banx.io, so why would anyone keep it in their own wallet?

Are there actually any users who use a Banx wallet?  Anyone?  I can't find a richlist or a block explorer.

I did find this Bitcoin address that's supposed to be Banx.io's -

https://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/Banx.io

Looks like you received some transactions from C-Cex, Bleutrade, Cryptsy, Cryptonator, Bittrex, Poloniex, Huobi, BTCJam, BetCoin, BitVC, Bitfinex, Cex.io, MoonBit, Coin-Swap, Bter, Allcrypt, Paymium, Mintpal, etc.

And congrats on the .00014BTC from Faucetbox.com, but it looks like you were getting bigger drips last month.

And where did you send BTC?  Over .3BTC to C-Cex, mostly on January 18, which is after you forked to invalidate all the BANX in their accounts and said they hacked your blockchain.  Is that supposed to be a dividend payout?  Because there were other transactions, and they weren't on a regular monthly schedule.  

On October 5, over 2BTC - more than half the wallet - to CryptoTrade.com.  Was that a dividend payout?  

Did NitrogenSports gambling site have a .6BTC dividend payout, in July 2014?  

In June there was .62BTC sent to CryptoStocks.com;  maybe that, and the payments to MCXNow and MintPal, gave someone the idea for BanxShares?

Looks like this Bitcoin wallet was in use for awhile before Banx.io existed.  Unfortunately, it continued to be used for gambling after it was associated with the addresses for Banx.io.

This wallet, since the launch of Banx.io, also sent funds to Mintpal, Bleutrade, Poloniex, Bittrex, QuadrigaCX, BitX, OKCoin, CoinPayments.net, AllCoin, AllCrypt, Comkort, Coin-Swap, LocalBitcoins, BitKonan, YoBit, SatoshiMines, TheRockTrading, Rollin.io, BitVC, BTC-e, BTCJam, Bter, Cryptsy, SWCPoker.eu, Anonibet.com, HashNest, Paymium, CloudBet, AnoniBet, BetCoin.ag, PrimeDice.com, SatoshiBet, CoinRoyale, FortuneJack, Dice.Bitco.in, EvolutionMarket, and AgoraMarket.

Is someone using investor funds to buy altcoins, play online poker, and buy illegal drugs over TOR?

[runpaint]

I and I alone have had control of the wallets since Feb 2015

Good, then you're qualified to answer questions about how the investors' funds are being spent.

and Banx as a company has maybe sent out 2 transactions from the exchange in that time

Then you don't pay dividends on a regular basis?  That wallet sent transactions on every day of February except the 16th and 21st.  So you're saying you pay dividends pretty much every single day.  

That would mean that all of these transactions are dividend payouts, except maybe 2 of them which are something else:

1.01995BTC to an unknown address on Feb. 2
0.32419992BTC and 0.27570008BTC on Feb. 4
1.01995BTC on Feb 10th
10.09995BTC on Feb 13th - Isn't that more than all the dividends paid to all shareholders combined?  It only left 15BTC in the wallet.
6.09995BTC on Feb 24th
1.87626394BTC sent to BTC-e on Feb 24th - to address 1BLZ7Zr3hUbhh8ufJEkaYzPMvT8HdyWAJS
3.99995BTC and 3.96341274BTC on Feb 24th
1.54785441BTC on Feb 26th to BTC-e - to the same address 1BLZ7Zr3hUbhh8ufJEkaYzPMvT8HdyWAJS

Does someone get 2 dividend payouts to the same address, 2 days apart?  
Do they have 2 separate Banx.io accounts, but they receive dividend payments to the same BTC-e address?  

It's strange, because that address was never used again before or since.

They must have used 2 different receiving addresses before February, and then they switched to the same address for February, and then after that they went back to using 2 different addresses. 

Or maybe those were the 2 transactions you were talking about, that Banx spent on office supplies or something. 

[ByronP]

1 those look like transactions before I took over and 2 when we pay dividends it is an internal transfer to accounts and then people are free to transfer there payout amount to wherever they want. There is no way to keep track of which inputs go to which user which would also violate my personal rule of keeping people as anonymous and secure as possible. Think of it like a bank you make a cash deposit to the teller and your account gets credited but if you make a withdrawal you will most likely not get any of those bills back because we just like a bank don't have any need or desire to keep track of who deposits which individual coin (input) nor do we care which individual coin (input) is used to satisfy a withdrawal. So essentially what you are looking at is meaningless. Basically you could deposit 1 btc and then withdraw 1 btc but the odds are that there will be no relation to your original deposit within the withdrawal.

I hope that makes sense I don't want to really delve into the technical side of how transactions are created too much.

[starmman]

Thanks for the information runpaint... I've been monitoring  the rise of banxshares on coinmarketcap for a while but have been 'put off' from investing due to various indicators and feelings. I was planning on possibly buying some time after/if it arrived on a few popular exchanges, however After reading the history, I've changed my mind.

[zuziii3]

banxio is scammy, they dont really answer tickets nor care of this exchange

skip them!

[ByronP]

Please provide me with a tkt number for your issue and I will check and see what happened as I do most of the tech support as well I apologize if something slipped through the cracks.

banxio is scammy, they dont really answer tickets nor care of this exchange

skip them!

[runpaint]

That makes sense.  So what I'm looking at is all the deposits and withdrawals of all BanxShares users.  

I guess I thought there would be more than 814 transactions in the past 4 months, for the #8 biggest coin, but still there's no telling which users sent which coins to which address.

But, then again, Banx.io wasn't open for business in September of 2014, and someone used the same associated Bitcoin addresses to make about 40 transactions with 999Dice.  So it's reasonable to assume that it could be the same person, and not an anonymous user, who continued to make any similar such transactions at a later date.  There's no way to know.

But if you've only spent money twice since February, that means you aren't making investments.  You're supposedly taking in $10,000 a day of ICO capital to invest and then use the profits for dividends.  

Since you've just told us that the money isn't being invested, where are the dividends coming from?

I guess it's all happening off the exchange, since there hasn't been $10,000 worth of Bitcoin deposited in the past month, let alone in one day. 

[ByronP]

Correct a lot is done outside of the exchange as large investors usually buy-in on a one on one basis and are credited via the exchange so that they can keep track of there ledger.
There are also some people (like myself) who receive shares as payment for services rendered which is another means of increasing banx overall worth without having to spend funds.

For full disclosure I hold BANX and I have opted to increase my holdings via dividends being paid in BANX. I also have no plans on selling my shares in fact quite the opposite. Then again I also have an inside view of all the projects being worked on which provides me a bit more faith than people who are not actually involved in creating these projects.

Side Note: Trade volume has absolutely nothing to do with its market cap. This is an area where most people get hung up on.

That makes sense.  So what I'm looking at is all the deposits and withdrawals of all BanxShares users.  

I guess I thought there would be more than 814 transactions in the past 4 months, for the #8 biggest coin, but still there's no telling which users sent which coins to which address.

But, then again, Banx.io wasn't open for business in September of 2014, and someone used the same associated Bitcoin addresses to make about 40 transactions with 999Dice.  So it's reasonable to assume that it could be the same person, and not an anonymous user, who continued to make any similar such transactions at a later date.  There's no way to know.

But if you've only spent money twice since February, that means you aren't making investments.  You're supposedly taking in $10,000 a day of ICO capital to invest and then use the profits for dividends.  

Since you've just told us that the money isn't being invested, where are the dividends coming from?

I guess it's all happening off the exchange, since there hasn't been $10,000 worth of Bitcoin deposited in the past month, let alone in one day.  

[ByronP]

To clarification since I think I missed this part. I did not say the money was not being invested what I was saying is that there are a lot of projects being worked on and not every project or person involved is compensated in the same way. Some receive cash, some receive, btc, and some receive shares. All of which actually totals way more than what you see. Banx also brings in cash from other revenue streams so simply looking at the numbers from banx.io will not give you the whole picture.

[runpaint]

Correct a lot is done outside of the exchange

So CoinMarketCap just has to take your word on the price and the volume.

Side Note: Trade volume has absolutely nothing to do with its market cap.

In order to calculate the total capitalization, it is necessary to know the price.  In order to know the price, it is necessary to know what trades are being made.  In order to know what trades are being made, it is necessary to know how much and how many.  

So if we can't believe the volume, we can't believe the market cap.  And we can't believe the volume.  You've just admitted that it's whatever you say it is, with no verification from any outside party.  

[ByronP]

You could use that same argument about anything that is only on a single exchange. However with BANX we know there are X number of coins in circulation and we know the price which during this phase doesn't really change (unless another exchange picks it up) hence the argument is invalid since trade volume has no bearing on it. I could say 2 million in trades were made today that doesn't mean the cap is going to change. What will make it change is a price fluctuation or a new private sale, dividend payout in BANX, or if another site opens a market and the price changes.

"And we can't believe the volume.  You've just admitted that it's whatever you say it is, with no verification from any outside party."
I never said "it's whatever you say it is". However you are free to believe that since it has no bearing on the cap in this instance.

Correct a lot is done outside of the exchange

So CoinMarketCap just has to take your word on the price and the volume.

Side Note: Trade volume has absolutely nothing to do with its market cap.

In order to calculate the total capitalization, it is necessary to know the price.  In order to know the price, it is necessary to know what trades are being made.  In order to know what trades are being made, it is necessary to know how much and how many.  

So if we can't believe the volume, we can't believe the market cap.  And we can't believe the volume.  You've just admitted that it's whatever you say it is, with no verification from any outside party.  

[ByronP]

Well it's time for me to sign off, if I don't get back in here again soon please feel free to use my contact info as posted above.

[runpaint]

The value of the coin is (supply X price).  

Just like shares in a company, the total number of shares times the price per share is supposed to equal the value of the company.  If the price of the shares go up, the value of the entire company goes up.  If the number of shares is doubled, but the value of the company stays the same, then the price of each share is cut in half.

Company worth $1,000,000
Shares total of 1,000,000
Price per share $1.00

If the company launches an IPO, they would sell 1 million shares for $1.00.  If they decided to have 2 million shares, the price would be 50 cents.  It's not just a random number somebody pulls out of nowhere - the numbers have meaning.  If you offer 1 million shares for $5 each, you are representing to the world that your company is worth $5 million.  

When you make a public announcement like Banx made, you are asking the entire world to buy what you're selling.  You didn't send out emails to a private list;  you came to Bitcointalk and said "We're selling something."  You presented an offer to everyone in the world who has internet access.

When you offer something for public sale, you are claiming that what you're selling is worth what you're asking.  When you said you had 6 million shares and you were selling some for the price of .0022BTC, you were telling us all that your company is worth 13,200BTC, which was over $5 million at the time.  

So when Banx doubled its number of shares, during the ICO, the price should've halved.  But it didn't, because the price is completely manipulated with no influence from actual market forces.

When Banx doubled the number of shares without reducing the price, they doubled the claimed value of the company.  But nothing in the real world actually happened to show that the company had increased in value, assets, or future earning potential.  They just decided to claim a higher value, and they did.

"We have a company that was worth $6 million yesterday.  Today it's worth $12 million, even though the company is exactly the same as it was yesterday."

Now CoinMarketCap says Banx is worth $12 million.  Why?  What happened in the past 12 months?  What have you doubled, other than some numbers on paper?

Are you beginning to see the problem, and why CoinMarketCap is important in this discussion?

If you were just another altcoin, nobody would care.  But you're claiming to be bigger and more valuable than almost every other altcoin in existence.  You're not.  You have nothing to show and not a single piece of concrete evidence to justify those numbers and charts.  

If you generated 12 million coins - for free, as you did - and then said they were worth $1.74 each, that would be fine.  But don't pretend that a lot of people are actually buying at that price, because they're not.  Banx is not worth $12 million, no matter what CoinMarketCap says.

There would be no argument, if you had real markets and real volume.  But you don't.  And that is why we're having this conversation.  So yes, volume is important.  

Why?  Because you've made a standing offer to the whole world to buy into a $12 million company, and it's not worth that.  You're making me an offer that is not a good deal for me.  Yes, you can offer whatever you want, and if I don't think it's worth it then I won't buy.  

But what if you lie?  What if you show me evidence that your coin is worth what you say, and that evidence is falsified?  Then are you ripping me off by getting someone else to tell me that it's worth what you're asking, when it's not?  

A lot of people have gone to CoinMarketCap, which means that a lot of people have been given incorrect information about the value of Banx.  How many of them spent money on Banx, based on false information?  If CoinMarketCap said Banx was only worth 25 cents per share, do you think all those people would have paid $1.00 or more?  

A lot of people here believe in Bitcoin.  We're heavily invested in the belief that Cryptocurrency will change our lives and change the world.  There's room for Litecoin, and it's almost as widely accepted around the world as Bitcoin.  Dogecoin has almost as many users as any other coin.  If NXT or Ethereum or Bitshares goes mainstream and is a household name, we're ready to embrace it and help it succeed.

But BanxShares doesn't belong up there with those other coins.  BanxShares isn't like Bitcoin, and it will never change the world.  Every bitcoin in existence was earned with work.  Bitcoins aren't just created out of thin air, like BANX was.  Bitcoin has a reason to exist other than dividends.  Bitcoin isn't like any other money or stock that has ever existed, while BANX is pretty much just the same thing they've been selling on Wall Street for a hundred years.

Like I said, if your market position was #300 where it belongs, nobody would care because you wouldn't be making a mockery out of everything Cryptocurrency is about.  And you wouldn't have a fake chart to help you sell shares for more than they're worth to people who thought they saw real market data.

[runpaint]

However with BANX we know there are X number of coins in circulation and we know the price which during this phase doesn't really change (unless another exchange picks it up) hence the argument is invalid since trade volume has no bearing on it. I could say 2 million in trades were made today that doesn't mean the cap is going to change.

But the cap did change, because of the trades that you said happened and the new coins that were created.  

You say the price doesn't change, and we know there are X number of coins in circulation, so how has the marketcap gone from $2 million to $12 million?

That's right - the volume of new coins for sale.  You're saying there are X number of coins "in circulation" - that's the number CMC uses for "available supply".

Supposedly, the company is holding a certain number of coins, and the ones sold on market are the "available supply".  But they're not really "in circulation" until they're sold, and that's why you need volume.  Otherwise they're just more coins being held by the company. 

So if you had a total of 1 million "available" coins for $1.00, the marketcap would be $1,000,000.

But if you say an additional 2 million were "made available" and sold today, the marketcap changes to $3,000,000.

And that's what you did when you doubled the number of "available coins".  But it would be hard to justify adding so many coins if you hadn't even sold 10% of the ones already "available", so that gives you a further incentive to fudge the volume.

Stop saying you couldn't affect the marketcap by reporting fake numbers, because the numbers you report are the only thing that determines the marketcap.

[RoomBot]

NICE work, Runpaint!

Are BanxShares as good as GAW Paycoin?  Yes.

Are they as bad as Paycoin?  Yes.

This guy seems like a slightly more intelligent, but equally scammy Garza...

[Hullabaloo]

BANXshares has a pretty bumpy history, I just want to clear up some of the confusion. [obDisclosure: I own BANXshares, but I don't believe anyone is the crypto-messiah. I don't have insider info. I'm also not a lawyer. ]

1. One source of confusion is the old BANX/Fork/New BANX issue.  The original BANX was a PoW coin that was released in 2 phases; as far as I can remember the mining reward was much smaller in v2, there was no incentive for miners to update so a group didn't.  Someone at Banx must have noticed the overmining and instead of a rollback, created a new chain and transferred value to it. I guess a couple of exchanges didn't want to switch (since they were stuck with the 'overmined' shares).  At least that's what some of the nastier messages on the official thread are about.

So I don't believe the fork itself was done maliciously, but might have been caused by the plans changing on the wallet dev after the release.  In any case, all the posts about mining and exchanges other than banx.io are relating to that older blockchain and mostly irrelevant to BANXShares and Banx.io at this point.

2. Banx purchased Atomic-Trade (renaming it Banx.io) and released the new BANXShares (a PoS coin) at about the same time.  I have no idea what the deal was between them (and they don't have to tell us if banxshares aren't actually shares of the company but shares of the profits, as is claimed) but I'm pretty sure Byron (Banx.io) is now just a cog in the Banx machine, and that the profits from trading on Banx.io are supposed to be only one part of the dividends from banxshares.  I imagine some other parts are profitable too, but right now dividends are paid once a month at a rate set by Mark.

So please ignore the old block explorer; the only BANX explorer I know of at the moment is http://block.banxcapital.com/chains ... Unfortunately it doesn't have a richlist but it's what I believe CMC is actually using (+ trade price on banx.io) to establish market cap or volume or whatever. So the numbers aren't 100% pulled out of Banx.io's hat.  And anyone could create a new explorer with the wallet from the git...

I have withdrawn and deposited BANXShares from banx.io and it works fine, so CMC is not to blame; it's not their fault there's no other exchange that lists a trade price. And BANX isn't the only coin that doesn't get listed a lot.

So anyway, just trying to put some facts straight, not trying to change opinions.

[adhitthana]

From what I have seen on coinmarketcap Banx shares do about $10,000 USD of transaction per day.
Are these real transactions?