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Author Topic: Looking lines of credit.  (Read 2390 times)
BitcoinINV
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October 13, 2012, 04:13:09 PM
 #1

Line of credit for Bitcoin Key's

Reason: To have inventory. Yes I said inventory and my inventory is bitcoins.
Rates: We can talk about that, and come to a agreement.
Terms: The line given to use would like the deposits work here. You deposit X amount and we return X%. This is not a ponzi, I will disclose my system of credit card sales to lenders.
Reasons why it will work: We will undercut the competition rates for Credit Card to Bitcoin exchange.


When I started Bitcoin I wanted to buy coins, like everyone else. I could not find a way to do it with credit card that was at a reasonable price. E-bay sells them for around 166% of Mtgox avg, and I sure as hell was not going to pay that. After looking into this for months trying to figure out why no one does this I figured it out. CHARGEBACKS!  You can not prove you sold anyone a bitcoin without having a trace on them. This makes it very easy for people to defraud you and say you never paid them.

NOT A PROBLEM!
I have found a way to sell coins with a trace, there is no disputing my way of sales. Even if a merchant puts a "Policy" about chargebacks on the site it still will not stop them if they do not have a trace.  Have you ever bought a download for a game with a key? Well our system works the same way.

Use of Funds I have a Authorize.net merchant account that should be done setting up around mid next week. I some coins that I can sell but the problem is, from the credit card purchase to me getting the funds could take 2-4 days. So my inventory burn rate would be high and leave me sold out for days at a time.

Prices We are working at 8% for 1 Bitcoin purchases with NO SURECHARGE! we will pay the fee's out of our pocket as a thanks to customers!
Purchases above 1 coin will be discounted, by min of $.20-35 each sale, I will not pass the transaction fee on to my customers!
People in the lending pool will pay the discount rate and transaction fee ONLY! Thats about .50 on 1 coin, so if the mtgox avg is 12.1 it would be 12.60 per coin, instead of 13.05 or so. There will be a limit on daily purchases by lenders.

Pulling Your Coins Out We ask for a 4 day grace period for any coins. We want to be able to find replacement inventory for the coins being pulled out.

Thanks if you have any questions please ask

If you would like to test the system I am going to reload some coins on the site tonight for purchase. See what your lending for tell me if you like it!

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BitcoinINV
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October 13, 2012, 10:09:39 PM
 #2

Updated!

BitcoinINV
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October 13, 2012, 11:48:57 PM
 #3

Bitcoin Key's

Check out the system for yourself! We have a couple of coins for sale!

Raoul Duke
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October 13, 2012, 11:54:49 PM
 #4

Bitcoin Key's

Check out the system for yourself! We have a couple of coins for sale!

That link is broken. Fix it Wink

BitcoinINV
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October 13, 2012, 11:56:12 PM
 #5

Thanks psy!


Edit: here is a link to the other post where I have sold to members here the same way. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118169.0

markm
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October 14, 2012, 07:45:00 AM
 #6

You think credit card companies care whether you did really deliver the digital goods?

They will reverse regardless.

Proving the customer looked at / downloaded / printed / owns the pr0n doesn't stop customer from doing a chargeback.

Its digital goods, they can spend the game credits on game stuff and still charge it back, similarly they can almost certain spend the Gox credits on dollars at Gox and still charge it back. Its digital goods.

Or are you somehow going to get it categorised as a cash advance, with the different percentage credit interest rate the customer pays for cash adcances and so on, maybe including some kind of protection against chargebacks that places giving cash advances are provided with?

-MarkM-

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BitcoinINV
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October 14, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
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I have a chargeback notice, a refund notice and a policy notice per the request of the processor. She said as long as I have all that stuff clearly posted and I keep my trace files. Yes I can trace if you spent the coins or not. Have you looked at my system or are you just going off the old system. I have had 2 VIP members told me its a pretty damn good system.

coincollectingenterprises
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October 14, 2012, 02:10:05 PM
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I have a chargeback notice, a refund notice and a policy notice per the request of the processor. She said as long as I have all that stuff clearly posted and I keep my trace files. Yes I can trace if you spent the coins or not. Have you looked at my system or are you just going off the old system. I have had 2 VIP members told me its a pretty damn good system.

I believe the issue is not proof but rather the basic premise of any credit card purchase is a buyer-biased security not a seller-biased security. Where there are buyers, there are sellers. So keeping buyers happy is paramount. What you're doing may be perfectly logical, but the financial system is not logical.

http://www.coincollectingenterprises.com (http://www.coincollectingenterprises.com)  for Copper Pennies, .999 Copper Bars/Punchings, Nickels, Silver Coins
referral link: Advertise on your site to earn free BTC or share shortened links for BTC (https://coinurl.com/index.php?ref=98e3634e43f78726621cb378e1a0ef85)
BurtW
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October 14, 2012, 02:21:30 PM
 #9

It is a pretty darn good system - one of the best so far.  The whole "Bitcoin thing" is well hidden in the transport layer of another product.

However, you will most probably still lose your shirt.

The reasons is the chargebacks.  As stated above you can do nothing to prevent them from happening.  Anyone can issue a chargeback for any reason no matter how many times you tell them they cannot.  Yes, you can do all the things you mention to make it possible to win the chargeback battle once it does happen - but they will happen.

And they can happen up to 180 or more days from the sale.

The entire fragile credit card system works on the fact that most people do not issue chargebacks unless they are really pissed off.  I know just the other day I did one because the product delivered was not what was advertised.  Vendors can tell customers "you cannot do that" till they are blue in the face, but a chargeback is just a mouse click away for all consumers.

Because the Bitcoin community contains so many scammers Bitcoin buyers are not "most people" and they issue chargebacks at a much higher rate than the general population.

There is also a larger number of stolen credit cards per purchase when you are selling Bitcions than in the general population.

I wish you good luck with your venture!

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
BurtW
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October 14, 2012, 02:31:18 PM
 #10

Quote
Or are you somehow going to get it categorised as a cash advance, with the different percentage credit interest rate the customer pays for cash adcances and so on, maybe including some kind of protection against chargebacks that places giving cash advances are provided with?

I believe that this is how casinos handle this issue.  Otherwise I could just gamble all I wanted and when I lost it all I could just issue a chargeback.

Has anyone ever tried the cash advance route?  I think this may have a chance of working.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
BitcoinINV
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October 14, 2012, 02:45:16 PM
 #11

Let me show you how the trace works,
#0000301315Created2012-10-14 12:55:47
 PMBuyerConrade (this is a real user order will not display info@yahoo.com) (change)
Product BTCconquer
StateFreeLicense Keys Sorry not a winner!
Download URLhttps://www.digitaldeliveryapp.com/orders/301315/download/70973d4348836a96d32afb4d18ea9958Sale
Price$0.00Order
Email SentYes(resend)
Downloadable until 2012-10-15 12:56:53 PM  <------ Right here is a link show when the Coins were accesed, and how long they have to claim them. Everytime someone downloads the game or the "Coins" I have a trace on it.  

Here is another example of actual coins sold with No personal info of course

Transaction ID#0000300878
Google Wallet Transaction ID2677995007XXXX
Created2012-10-14 04:19:17
AMBuyerHidden(Hidden@checkout.google.com) (change)
Product 1.0 Bitcoin Pack StateComplete
License Keys 5JZAryu81AR9BpkJEY4Lv7JpTN4wzZLX3m7cjCzPGTw8SHvF8fc  <------ Game key is a private key with bitcoins
Download URLhttps://www.digitaldeliveryapp.com/orders/300878/download/c58524ab2464c22160c0d62eac031cdbSale
 Price$12.66Google
Wallet Fee$0.67
Profit$11.99
Order Email SentYes(resend)
Downloadable until 2012-11-13 04:22:48 AM

So far I have 3 cards google would not approve I do not know why 3 declines and a couple other weird things lol

I will not continue to use googlecheck out for the simple reason, they cost to much. I will be switching over to Authorize.net systems, I had a long long talk with them about what I am doing and they are 100% aware.

Now with a charge back fee's as per instructed by my merchant account holder I was told to put this on the page

I offer NO refunds at all!. Do not ask you will not get one. This is on file with our Credit Card Processor
The charge that will appear on your credit card statement will be Bitcoin Keys on credit card statments. If you place a chargeback or dispute a charge for any order that you purchased, there will be a $200.00 fee charged to your account upon our receiving the chargeback to cover our  expenses to prove that you did make the purchase.
We will take civil legal action seeking loss of income related to the fraud, including all related expenses.
We have a very good lawyer who will get our money back!
You agree that if you, the buyer, choose to do business with Bitcoin Key's and you file a chargeback or dispute with your credit card company or google, and you do not win the charge back argument, you agree to pay us $200 for our efforts, in addition to the $200.00 fee. If we do not receive this payment in 10 Business days legal action will be taken. You agree to reimburse my lawyer for his time and effort, if we go to court. If we can not regain  our item's or monies we will hire a collection agency. If you do not accept this agreement please do not purchase from us. STOP FRAUD TODAY!

There will be a redirect page with this warning before you purchase, the merchant account holder told me she works with digital goods all the time and this tends to stop the people from false chargebacks. I would not chargeback either if it cost me more then the item lol

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October 14, 2012, 03:55:28 PM
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I offer NO refunds at all!. Do not ask you will not get one. This is on file with our Credit Card Processor
The charge that will appear on your credit card statement will be Bitcoin Keys on credit card statments. If you place a chargeback or dispute a charge for any order that you purchased, there will be a $200.00 fee charged to your account upon our receiving the chargeback to cover our  expenses to prove that you did make the purchase.
We will take civil legal action seeking loss of income related to the fraud, including all related expenses.
We have a very good lawyer who will get our money back!
You agree that if you, the buyer, choose to do business with Bitcoin Key's and you file a chargeback or dispute with your credit card company or google, and you do not win the charge back argument, you agree to pay us $200 for our efforts, in addition to the $200.00 fee. If we do not receive this payment in 10 Business days legal action will be taken. You agree to reimburse my lawyer for his time and effort, if we go to court. If we can not regain  our item's or monies we will hire a collection agency. If you do not accept this agreement please do not purchase from us. STOP FRAUD TODAY!

That is very scary but the scammers will not even bother to read it.  I honestly do hope this works out for you.

Since you are talking to the credit card processor can you ask about the idea of getting Bitcoins charged as a cash advance and if that would totally eliminate the chargebacks?  Also what happens to cash advances if the credit card is stolen?

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
farlack
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October 14, 2012, 04:15:18 PM
 #13

You can have a verification button that reads:

Please answer the following:

What is the fraud/false chargeback fee found in the TOS(link here)
"number here"

That way every person has to go to it only once.

By the way to the user above about chargeback time frames, you can actually chargeback up to 2 years.

BitcoinINV
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October 14, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
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I was actually looking to implement a subscription  typed system so users can buy more if the meet X reqs. This would allow honest users to use our service for a 1 time fee with higher limits and less risk on my side.

So user bob pays a 1 time fee of X dollars. He is then checked will determine latter what check will be done. After he is check his limit is raised for purchases.

I already have a subscription option in my software built in so it would be very easy.

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October 15, 2012, 01:40:14 AM
 #15

Maybe I am missing something, but have you answered the cash advance question? I'm not clear how you are going to prevent against large scale credit card fraud. You do realize that you can buy stolen CC numbers on the tor network right? CC fraud is massive in scale, and if you are vulnerable to it in any way you will be bankrupted by fraud. Hope you have a way around that, if you do I will certainly try out your service.

Wish you the best of luck finding your line of credit and growing your service!
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October 15, 2012, 02:37:09 AM
 #16

I foresee this ending up with massive chargebacks, and the low volume of use wont allow the profits necessary to sue or even pay for arbitration. Any real criminal will not be giving you the information necessary to track down their true identity.
BlackHeartFund
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October 15, 2012, 04:16:54 AM
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Any real criminal will not be giving you the information necessary to track down their true identity.

Exactly. Anyone who sticks their neck out at all on reversible payments of any serious amounts will get hit by real pros including organized gangs pretty fast... even if you could identify them and had legal recourse (which you can't, and you don't), they'd hit you so often that you wouldn't even have enough time to fill all the paperwork.

Make sure you are rock solid before you risk any real BTC.
BitcoinINV
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October 16, 2012, 06:40:43 PM
 #18

I looked into cash advances and there are tons of regulations and cost that go along with it. It would be non-profitable unless you were a medium size corp. But on that note my merchant account person hooked me up with http://merchantlifeline.com/ .

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October 17, 2012, 08:14:32 PM
 #19

Lol, all the customer has got to do is throw away his card after purchase, go to the bank and say it was stolen.
BitcoinINV
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October 18, 2012, 01:59:54 AM
 #20

You can only do that so many times before they catch on, Not only that when you buy it records the I.P. of purchase so they will investigate. If it was that easy all major online game sellers would be out of business. I'm not saying it can not be done dude but get real if it was that easy all of use would have everything we want for free.

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