Andreas Antonopoulos about censorship on bitcointalk and reddit

[LiteCoinGuy]

Starts at 56:00

https://soundcloud.com/heryptohow/andreas-antonopoulos-and-chris-odom-unveils-stashcryptocom

[uxgpf]

Here's a TL;DL transcription:

One of the things that came out of this, which I've found very disappointing. Is that one of the moderators of Reddit, who also is the moderator of bitcointalk.org and is participating in moderation of bitcoin.org and the Wiki. Has taken a stance where he has excluded or censored all conversation about XT.

I think that's really an example how unhealthy the governance structure has become and to me the Reddit platform as result has really deteriorated badly. It's not a healthy place to have a debate. Between the moderators not doing anything about the trolling and doing a lot about censorship instead of focusing on the trolling...I'm out.

+1

[Lauda]

Banning users and deleting discussions (Reddit) or even moving them (BCT) solely to reach some political goal is not 'so called "censorship"' it is the very definition of it.

Moving threads is not the definition of censorship. I will not talk about reddit. Bitcointalk.org is a privately owned forum, i.e. theymos is letting you talk about A LOT of things in his backyard. I'd say for sure that 99% of your guys have minimum experience with forums. Quite a lot of admins would instantly ban you for even accusing them of censorship or similar stuff. Theymos is really tolerant.

Moderation has been lighter here than on Reddit, that's true. (I've only had two of my posts deleted and nothing particularly important) But it's hard to know full extent of it. As much as I disagree with Theymos' position I don't think he's lying and it's time for me to move on to somewhere where the moderators wont actively try to sabotage the discussion.

Then go ahead. If someone does not like the rules (which are pretty good in my opinion), they can either: A) Respect them; B) Leave. A lot of people have complained on various things and said that they would leave, yet almost nobody ever did (i.e. leave for another forum).
Update:
Nice ninja delete. I've deleted my previous post because of it.

[KhalDrago]

seems the guy is abusing his power to protect his btc, but he doesnt know what hes doing is bad for the value.

<theymos> XT is wrong because it splits the Bitcoin economy. This is damaging to Bitcoin, and I want Bitcoin to suceed for ideological reasons, so that's no good. In the long-term it may damage the value of my BTC, which is no good.

[yayayo]

It's childish to make such a drama about ostensible "censorship", when in fact all theymos is asking for is staying on topic. Both this forum and the subreddit in question are about Bitcoin, not about Hearndresencoin or any other altcoin. Especially the subreddit has been flooded with Hearndresencoin spam by an army of trolls spreading FUD and propaganda, so it became unbearable to use for Bitcoiners. If you ask me, theymos should have been more strict in moderation and enforce permabans on known trolls that frequently advertise for altcoins in the wrong sections (like the topic starter).

This is not censorship, because this forum and reddit do have other sections, where altcoiners are absolutely free to advertise and discuss any coin they want. It would be a huge leap forward if these people would understand, that it can be annoying for a Bitcoiner being forced to read all the aggressive off-topic advertising - sometimes even masked as Bitcoin content. Those Bitcoiners who are interested in altcoins as well will join the proper sections/subreddits, so there is no reason for spamming.

ya.ya.yo!

[knight22]

It's childish to make such a drama about ostensible "censorship", when in fact all theymos is asking for is staying on topic. Both this forum and the subreddit in question are about Bitcoin, not about Hearndresencoin or any other altcoin. Especially the subreddit has been flooded with Hearndresencoin spam by an army of trolls spreading FUD and propaganda, so it became unbearable to use for Bitcoiners. If you ask me, theymos should have been more strict in moderation and enforce permabans on known trolls that frequently advertise for altcoins in the wrong sections (like the topic starter).

This is not censorship, because this forum and reddit do have other sections, where altcoiners are absolutely free to advertise and discuss any coin they want. It would be a huge leap forward if these people would understand, that it can be annoying for a Bitcoiner being forced to read all the aggressive off-topic advertising - sometimes even masked as Bitcoin content. Those Bitcoiners who are interested in altcoins as well will join the proper sections/subreddits, so there is no reason for spamming.

ya.ya.yo!

Telling that XT is an altcoin is a LIE. Acting accordingly is therefore censorship no matter which way you're looking at it.

[LiteCoinGuy]

It's childish to make such a drama about ostensible "censorship", when in fact all theymos is asking for is staying on topic. Both this forum and the subreddit in question are about Bitcoin, not about Hearndresencoin or any other altcoin. Especially the subreddit has been flooded with Hearndresencoin spam by an army of trolls spreading FUD and propaganda, so it became unbearable to use for Bitcoiners. If you ask me, theymos should have been more strict in moderation and enforce permabans on known trolls that frequently advertise for altcoins in the wrong sections (like the topic starter).


ya.ya.yo!

which altcoins? XT is not an altcoin bro. do your homework. even bitcoin qt is not bitcoin, maybe you dont know that...

[runpaint]

Are you allowed to promote Stellar at the Ripple forums? 

[darkangel11]

He's just mad xt hasn't gained as much attention as he had hoped.

[knight22]

Are you allowed to promote Stellar at the Ripple forums?  

Maybe you still didn't get that. Here again: Telling that XT is an altcoin is a LIE.

[bad_char1]

...If someone does not like the rules (which are pretty good in my opinion), they can either: A) Respect them; B) Leave. ...

Every dictator in the world agrees with your logic.  "Don't like my rules? Respect them or leave "
Might there be some other alternatives beyond (A) and (B), which you may have missed?  

[Zarathustra]

Banning users and deleting discussions (Reddit) or even moving them (BCT) solely to reach some political goal is not 'so called "censorship"' it is the very definition of it.

Moving threads is not the definition of censorship.

Aha. And closing a thread?

[MicroGuy]

I wish the /r/bitcoin moderators would utilize reddit's upvote/downvote system more often.

This would allow the bitcoin community more input into what is relevant and what is irrelevant. If posts are deleted, then this voting power is nullified.

[maokoto]

I own a forum too, and can see things from the other side. If one post is deleted or moved, being I the owner of the forum, I would not consider it censorship.

However, there could be a discussion about why I delete such and such posts. That is natural.

[worhiper_-_]

Censorship and Reddit are two things that go together, unfortunately. Even the users of /r/bitcoinxt are engaging on censoring the subreddit by donvoting everything on /r/bitcoin they don't agree with.

[runpaint]

Are you allowed to promote Stellar at the Ripple forums?  

Maybe you still didn't get that. Here again: Telling that XT is an altcoin is a LIE.

Are you saying Stellar isn't the same as Ripple?

If you fork a coin, isn't the new fork just as valid as the old fork, with all the same blockchain up to that point?

If you fork a coin, and your fork is just as valid as the other fork, and people using the old fork can't use your coin, then you have 2 different coins.  Is either of them an altcoin, and if so, which one?

Some people from Ripple left and created their own fork, and called it Stellar.  What is the difference between that and XT?

[Lauda]

Every dictator in the world agrees with your logic.  "Don't like my rules? Respect them or leave "
Might there be some other alternatives beyond (A) and (B), which you may have missed?  

This is not even remotely correct. You can not compare dictators to a online forum. We go back to the lack of experience when dealing with forums. If I make my own forum, why should I let others decide how I should run it? That being said, there is probably a handful of alternatives to this forum.

Maybe you still didn't get that. Here again: Telling that XT is an altcoin is a LIE.

Theymos never said that(?). He said that XT is a programmed altcoin. It's not a lie, it's his opinion. You think otherwise, and that is your opinion. Some agree with this statement and some don't (even within the staff members).

He's just mad xt hasn't gained as much attention as he had hoped.

AFAIK Andreas was never really supportive of such a takeover. He was against the whole fighting that has been going on. However, there's a number of XT supporters that are very mad.

Censorship and Reddit are two things that go together, unfortunately. Even the users of /r/bitcoinxt are engaging on censoring the subreddit by donvoting everything on /r/bitcoin they don't agree with.

There's two sides to every story. I doubt that many XT supporters would even admit to this.

[DooMAD]

Perhaps there's an argument to be made that "censorship" is the wrong word, but it's still using a position of authority to steer discussion in a particular direction which some clearly feel is misleading.  It's been said enough times now that there should be no ambiguity.  If a fork had occurred without consensus, then it would have become an altcoin.  As it stands, it's simply an alternative client for Bitcoin that proposes a possible change to the protocol.  Perhaps in hindsight, a new subforum in the 'Alternative Clients' section would have been more fitting and would have provoked less of a backlash.  Bit late now, though.  The people who saw it as censorship (or something similar) clearly aren't changing their minds about that, so there's little point in arguing about it now.  The important thing is that we move forward and find a solution that more people can get behind.

[worhiper_-_]

IMO there's no denying that XT supporters are flocking /r/bitcoin to push their agenda. I've actually seen people in the comments suggesting that doing it is reasonable but can't find a link atm.

[knight22]

Maybe you still didn't get that. Here again: Telling that XT is an altcoin is a LIE.

Theymos never said that(?). He said that XT is a programmed altcoin. It's not a lie, it's his opinion. You think otherwise, and that is your opinion. Some agree with this statement and some don't (even within the staff members).

It's not a matter of opinions it is a matter of facts. Saying that XT is a programmed altcoin is even a bigger LIE.