What happens when we approach a singularity of FAKE?

[Spendulus]

If you fall into a black hole, you will see the entire future of the Universe unfold in front of you in a matter of moments and you will emerge into another space-time created by the singularity of the black hole you just fell into. ....

None of this is true. A black hole does not contain "history," but destroys it.  Neither is there any necessity in physics for another space time on some hypothetical "other side" of a black hole.  If that were so, the black hole would weigh less than the matter destroyed going into it.

They don't.

There CERTAINLY may be other mechanisms for alternate universes to exist.

Black hole information paradox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox


Inside Black Holes | Leonard Susskind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMRYZMv0jRE


Obviously I won't even try to debate you on that subject... You may be one of the people sitting in that class. EDIT: Maybe the dude eating that delicious looking sandwich...

 

This is not complicated.  Let's take a much easier case to understand, like a neutron star.  It's "solid."  It's a star that has ran out of fuel and has shrunk down to a compact, solid mass - not of atoms, but of neutrons.  It is only a few miles in diameter, but weighs more than our sun.

It is millions of time more dense than say, matter such as the Earth is made of.  You fall toward a neutron star.  By the time you become a thin layer on the surface of the star, no atoms of your body exist.  All that information - and organization - has been destroyed.  Is "Information" preserved?   Electrons and protons have escaped into interstellar space.

The black hole, though, sucks it all in.  Now the questions about "information preservation" concern themselves with outflow of mostly, photons.  At this point let's compare the discussion with the original argument - the preservation of HISTORY.  No history can be preserved after the dissolution of matter itself.  Therefore, there can be no "other side of the black hole."  Were that the case we would see outflows in our universe, where black holes existed in some other universe.  And they would be outflows of what, exactly?    This is where the issues of conservation of energy and momentum become troublesome.

"Falling into a black hole, you would see...." NOTHING because there would be no "You" whatsoever, you would be as dead as if you fell into the Sun.

[Wilikon]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

[BADecker]

If you fall into a black hole, you will see the entire future of the Universe unfold in front of you in a matter of moments and you will emerge into another space-time created by the singularity of the black hole you just fell into. ....

None of this is true. A black hole does not contain "history," but destroys it.  Neither is there any necessity in physics for another space time on some hypothetical "other side" of a black hole.  If that were so, the black hole would weigh less than the matter destroyed going into it.

They don't.

There CERTAINLY may be other mechanisms for alternate universes to exist.

Black hole information paradox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox


Inside Black Holes | Leonard Susskind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMRYZMv0jRE


Obviously I won't even try to debate you on that subject... You may be one of the people sitting in that class. EDIT: Maybe the dude eating that delicious looking sandwich...

 

This is not complicated.  Let's take a much easier case to understand, like a neutron star.  It's "solid."  It's a star that has ran out of fuel and has shrunk down to a compact, solid mass - not of atoms, but of neutrons.  It is only a few miles in diameter, but weighs more than our sun.

It is millions of time more dense than say, matter such as the Earth is made of.  You fall toward a neutron star.  By the time you become a thin layer on the surface of the star, no atoms of your body exist.  All that information - and organization - has been destroyed.  Is "Information" preserved?   Electrons and protons have escaped into interstellar space.

The black hole, though, sucks it all in.  Now the questions about "information preservation" concern themselves with outflow of mostly, photons.  At this point let's compare the discussion with the original argument - the preservation of HISTORY.  No history can be preserved after the dissolution of matter itself.  Therefore, there can be no "other side of the black hole."  Were that the case we would see outflows in our universe, where black holes existed in some other universe.  And they would be outflows of what, exactly?    This is where the issues of conservation of energy and momentum become troublesome.

"Falling into a black hole, you would see...." NOTHING because there would be no "You" whatsoever, you would be as dead as if you fell into the Sun.

Not meaning to pick on Spendulus, here, but...

The whole idea of talking about these things is speculation. Stars and their makeup, outside of spectral analysis, is essentially unknown. Right inside our own little solar system, we are finding new things - sometimes anomalies - that we never thought existed, and that are tweaking our understanding of astrophysics in ways we would never have dreamed of a couple of decades ago.

Personally, I consider that all of our information is kept and maintained by God. Psalm 147:4 says about God:

He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name.

Not only does God know every star by name, but He determines them, causing their existence. In similar ways He knows each of us and everything about us.

[Spendulus]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

[Wilikon]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

Let's compare the whole universe with a real hologram... Why not  . When you have an hologram on a film, when you cut the film in half then in half then in half, this action does not destroy the hologram. Its "window" shrinks but you can still see it, understand it, even if the history of the hologram is on a 2D plastic film. if I take that hologram film inside a 1 000 000 000 K kiln then that history should be lost. Maybe the way History is destroyed (inside a supernova explosion, or ripped appart) could have an impact in its preservation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OEiTe8_Dc

[Spendulus]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

Let's compare the whole universe with a real hologram... Why not  . When you have an hologram on a film, when you cut the film in half then in half then in half, this action does not destroy the hologram. Its "window" shrinks but you can still see it, understand it, even if the history of the hologram is on a 2D plastic film. if I take that hologram film inside a 1 000 000 000 K kiln then that history should be lost. Maybe the way History is destroyed (inside a supernova explosion, or ripped appart) could have an impact in its preservation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OEiTe8_Dc

Does not the very existence of the concept "quantum uncertainty" imply that whatever process (temperature for example) increasing the frequency of QU events per unit mass implies history loss.

Note "information" is different, and it is used in a very specific sense in these discussions.  "History" is a time based phenomena, and time is utterly fucked inside a black hole. 

[BADecker]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

The simple reason is that our knowledge of physics and the dimensions is so extremely limited. If we had full knowledge of it all, there would be no loss of history whatsoever, right?

[Wilikon]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

Let's compare the whole universe with a real hologram... Why not  . When you have an hologram on a film, when you cut the film in half then in half then in half, this action does not destroy the hologram. Its "window" shrinks but you can still see it, understand it, even if the history of the hologram is on a 2D plastic film. if I take that hologram film inside a 1 000 000 000 K kiln then that history should be lost. Maybe the way History is destroyed (inside a supernova explosion, or ripped appart) could have an impact in its preservation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OEiTe8_Dc

Does not the very existence of the concept "quantum uncertainty" imply that whatever process (temperature for example) increasing the frequency of QU events per unit mass implies history loss.

Note "information" is different, and it is used in a very specific sense in these discussions.  "History" is a time based phenomena, and time is utterly fucked inside a black hole. 

History is gone inside a black hole. So should information?

Are we still talking about the singularity of FAKE?

 

[Spendulus]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

Let's compare the whole universe with a real hologram... Why not  . When you have an hologram on a film, when you cut the film in half then in half then in half, this action does not destroy the hologram. Its "window" shrinks but you can still see it, understand it, even if the history of the hologram is on a 2D plastic film. if I take that hologram film inside a 1 000 000 000 K kiln then that history should be lost. Maybe the way History is destroyed (inside a supernova explosion, or ripped appart) could have an impact in its preservation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OEiTe8_Dc

Does not the very existence of the concept "quantum uncertainty" imply that whatever process (temperature for example) increasing the frequency of QU events per unit mass implies history loss.

Note "information" is different, and it is used in a very specific sense in these discussions.  "History" is a time based phenomena, and time is utterly fucked inside a black hole. 

History is gone inside a black hole. So should information?

Are we still talking about the singularity of FAKE?

 

If quantum states and steps cease to exist, clearly information ceases to exist.  I think the main argument is whether information counts may be preserved OUTSIDE the black hole.  If not then net universe information would over time shrink.  But that gets back to the thermodynamics laws, conservation.

[Wilikon]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

Let's compare the whole universe with a real hologram... Why not  . When you have an hologram on a film, when you cut the film in half then in half then in half, this action does not destroy the hologram. Its "window" shrinks but you can still see it, understand it, even if the history of the hologram is on a 2D plastic film. if I take that hologram film inside a 1 000 000 000 K kiln then that history should be lost. Maybe the way History is destroyed (inside a supernova explosion, or ripped appart) could have an impact in its preservation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OEiTe8_Dc

Does not the very existence of the concept "quantum uncertainty" imply that whatever process (temperature for example) increasing the frequency of QU events per unit mass implies history loss.

Note "information" is different, and it is used in a very specific sense in these discussions.  "History" is a time based phenomena, and time is utterly fucked inside a black hole. 

History is gone inside a black hole. So should information?

Are we still talking about the singularity of FAKE?

 

If quantum states and steps cease to exist, clearly information ceases to exist.  I think the main argument is whether information counts may be preserved OUTSIDE the black hole.  If not then net universe information would over time shrink.  But that gets back to the thermodynamics laws, conservation.

"Rien ne se perd, rien ne se crée, tout se transforme."

Lavoisier


Black holes destroy data, transforming something into nothingness. Lavoiser was wrong then.

[BADecker]

Cool. Then the idea of a hologram universe is not possible if HISTORY is destroyed?

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

This is really nonsense.  One needs to look at the way that dimensions are used in math and physics.  We can look at Sudoko games easily as an n-dimensional problem of sparse matrix, but we can't VERBALIZE it or think out the solution to the game that way.  to address your point, sure we can represent 3d information in 2d space.  We do it anytime we write things on a piece of paper.  Paper is 2d.

Trom the exact vibratory state of a group of atoms arguably one might step backwards to prior conditions of that group, hence "the current contains the past."  This would not be true after the reduction of atomic matter to plasma or subatomic particles.  The reasons should be obvious.  Are they?

Let's compare the whole universe with a real hologram... Why not  . When you have an hologram on a film, when you cut the film in half then in half then in half, this action does not destroy the hologram. Its "window" shrinks but you can still see it, understand it, even if the history of the hologram is on a 2D plastic film. if I take that hologram film inside a 1 000 000 000 K kiln then that history should be lost. Maybe the way History is destroyed (inside a supernova explosion, or ripped appart) could have an impact in its preservation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OEiTe8_Dc

Does not the very existence of the concept "quantum uncertainty" imply that whatever process (temperature for example) increasing the frequency of QU events per unit mass implies history loss.

Note "information" is different, and it is used in a very specific sense in these discussions.  "History" is a time based phenomena, and time is utterly fucked inside a black hole. 

History is gone inside a black hole. So should information?

Are we still talking about the singularity of FAKE?

 

If quantum states and steps cease to exist, clearly information ceases to exist.  I think the main argument is whether information counts may be preserved OUTSIDE the black hole.  If not then net universe information would over time shrink.  But that gets back to the thermodynamics laws, conservation.

Actually, quantum states do not exist. There is no probability. Everything operates by cause and effect.

However, the imagination of mankind is really marvelous in that it can attach itself to "higher" dimensions in unrecognizable ways, enough so that mankind can think up quantum-like things with relation to the more basic dimensions, so that it looks like quantum exists.

[Spendulus]

Actually, quantum states do not exist. There is no probability. Everything operates by cause and effect.

However, the imagination of mankind is really marvelous in that it can attach itself to "higher" dimensions in unrecognizable ways, enough so that mankind can think up quantum-like things with relation to the more basic dimensions, so that it looks like quantum exists.

Now I can buy quantum tunneling diodes.  I can look at things through a quantum tunneling microscope.

No, wait.  Badecker says quantum states do not exist.

[BADecker]

Actually, quantum states do not exist. There is no probability. Everything operates by cause and effect.

However, the imagination of mankind is really marvelous in that it can attach itself to "higher" dimensions in unrecognizable ways, enough so that mankind can think up quantum-like things with relation to the more basic dimensions, so that it looks like quantum exists.

Now I can buy quantum tunneling diodes.  I can look at things through a quantum tunneling microscope.

No, wait.  Badecker says quantum states do not exist.

Quantum states cancel each other out. You can seem to hold them momentarily, because of your focus. But they do not really exist.

[Wilikon]

Bengazi story - FAKE
Muslim boy with suspected bomb - FAKE
Ferguson story - FAKE
Zimmerman story - FAKE
"If you like your doctor, you can keep him.  If you like your plan..." - FAKE
Epidemic of rape on college campuses - FAKE
Epidemic of Gun Violence - FAKE
Iran nuclear deal - FAKE

Sophie Cruz miraculously meeting the Pope - FAKE

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1190343.0

[Spendulus]

Bengazi story - FAKE
Muslim boy with suspected bomb - FAKE
Ferguson story - FAKE
Zimmerman story - FAKE
"If you like your doctor, you can keep him.  If you like your plan..." - FAKE
Epidemic of rape on college campuses - FAKE
Epidemic of Gun Violence - FAKE
Iran nuclear deal - FAKE
Americans Greatly Overestimate Percent Gay, Lesbian in U.S.  FAKE
Sophie Cruz miraculously meeting the Pope - FAKE
Bush AWOL - FAKE
Obama's Deal With Iran - FAKE
Republican War on Women - FAKE
Google "Don't Be Evil" - FAKE
Emma Sulkowicz Raped Campus Mattress Girl - FAKE
Duke LaCross Players are Rapists - FAKE
Balloon Boy - FAKE
Matthew Shepard "Murdered and hung from a fence because he was GAY"  - FAKE

[UliJonHoth]

Bengazi story - FAKE
Muslim boy with suspected bomb - FAKE
Ferguson story - FAKE
Zimmerman story - FAKE
"If you like your doctor, you can keep him.  If you like your plan..." - FAKE
Epidemic of rape on college campuses - FAKE
Epidemic of Gun Violence - FAKE
Iran nuclear deal - FAKE
Americans Greatly Overestimate Percent Gay, Lesbian in U.S.  FAKE
Sophie Cruz miraculously meeting the Pope - FAKE
Bush AWOL - FAKE
Obama's Deal With Iran - FAKE
Republican War on Women - FAKE
Google "Don't Be Evil" - FAKE
Emma Sulkowicz Raped Campus Mattress Girl - FAKE
Duke LaCross Players are Rapists - FAKE
Balloon Boy - FAKE
Matthew Shepard "Murdered and hung from a fence because he was GAY"  - FAKE

The Rosa Parks incident can be added to that list

http://www.socialstudies.com/c/@10ybJGBs6We9k/Pages/article.html?article@rosaparks

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-schmitz/how-change-happens-the-re_b_6237544.html

[BADecker]

Come on, you guys (and gals). He's using all the incidents to confuse you. The thing he is really talking about is the recent findings that black holes do not exist.

So, what happens when we approach a singularity (black hole) of FAKE (doesn't exist)? Nothing.

[Spendulus]

The Rosa Parks incident can be added to that list

http://www.socialstudies.com/c/@10ybJGBs6We9k/Pages/article.html?article@rosaparks

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-schmitz/how-change-happens-the-re_b_6237544.html

That's correct.

It's not well known, and it destroys a great myth of liberalism.

But you are correct, and so it goes on the list.