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Author Topic: 90 minutes for 1 block...  (Read 6790 times)
Steve
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October 17, 2012, 08:19:08 PM
 #21

Confirmations just give you a risk assessment…1 confirmation by the Bitcoin network should give you a whole lot more confidence than 4 Litecoin confirmations.  The Bitcoin network has a lot more computing power protecting its network.  If there was some way you could estimate how much computing power is currently working on a block that includes a given transaction, that would be a pretty decent way to assess the risk of a transaction even before it's in the first block.  If mining pools sold subscriptions to their feed of lower difficultly blocks, you could make these kinds of assessments (you could also look at p2pool).  You could observe the mining power working on blocks that include your transaction and make a risk assessment long before the first real block.  As the mining power including your transaction increases it may cross a threshold where you accept the risk (and the threshold would be dependent on the value of the transaction).  This would be a far better way to assess the risk of a transaction than the various transaction radar approaches.

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Grix
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October 17, 2012, 09:09:29 PM
 #22

I think this problem can be fixed by being more open to zero-confirmation transactions, especially when we're talking about <50 BTC. Let's face it, if someone managed to manipulate the protocol, it wouldn't make sense for them to use it to scam people out of relatively tiny amounts.

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October 17, 2012, 09:35:17 PM
 #23

This is why I have always thought that Bitcoin would not ever replace other currency in its entirety. Society simply does not have the patience to wait around for their money to go through. We are a want it gotta have it now society.
 

Yeah, BTC has advantages for sure. However it wont last 20 years... We need results now...

You can't just keep switching to new coins. Is their some reason bitcoin can't be improved upon?

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October 17, 2012, 10:02:10 PM
 #24

I think this problem can be fixed by being more open to zero-confirmation transactions, especially when we're talking about <50 BTC. Let's face it, if someone managed to manipulate the protocol, it wouldn't make sense for them to use it to scam people out of relatively tiny amounts.

Just because it wouldn't make sense, doesn't mean people won't do it anyway.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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October 18, 2012, 12:48:38 AM
 #25

90 minutes to send cash, anywhere in the world, without needing a third party? That is amazing!
in fact the bitcoins were not reversible the the second they were send.

it just took 90 minutes to confirm it was a good tx.

I wonder that the odds are for a 90min block?

imagine we get really unlucky and hit a 3 year block  Cheesy

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October 18, 2012, 12:51:37 AM
 #26

90 minutes to send cash, anywhere in the world, without needing a third party? That is amazing!
imagine we get really unlucky and hit a 3 year block  Cheesy
We need to calculate the chances of this. If it did get really long, I am pretty sure people would throw all the computing power in the world at it to get all the built up transaction fees.
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October 18, 2012, 02:01:28 AM
 #27

Litecoin is already too fast most likely.

This isn't logical. If too fast is bad then Ricky Bobby was wrong.
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October 18, 2012, 03:28:20 AM
 #28

Society simply does not have the patience to wait around for their money to go through. We are a want it gotta have it now society.
 

ya I love it when I get to pay 5% and have to wait 3 days to send money overseas too.....

90 minutes? 0.001%? Outrage!

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October 18, 2012, 03:36:58 AM
 #29

They were also not spendable by the receiver (afaik using the reference client) until 1 confirmation. I don't really consider it sending cash unless the recipient can spend it. Wink

I have sent zero confirmations bitcoins from deposits at blockchain.info on numerous occasions. With zero fees no less. The network just ends up including both my transfer to blockchain.info and my transfer of that same money from there elsewhere in the same block (though it does take a while sometimes Grin)

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October 18, 2012, 05:26:30 AM
 #30

How well is litecoin doing these days?
Its doing very well.

up about 100% in only a few months

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October 18, 2012, 03:32:03 PM
 #31

We need a feedback mechanism to minimize very long rounds (and less importantly, very short rounds). I have proposed this before.

Instead of collecting transaction fee, miners will use transaction fee to offset part of the mining difficulty. For example, today's difficulty is about 3,000,000 ("baseline difficulty") and block reward is 50BTC. If the total transaction fee is 0.1BTC, which is 0.2% of block reward, the miner will only need to mine the block with difficulty = 3,000,000*(1-0.002) = 2,994,000 (effective difficulty).

In the 90-minutes block, the transaction fee was 0.612BTC, which would reduce the effective difficulty and expected block discovery time by 1.22%.

This scheme will also minimize very short rounds: at the beginning of rounds which transaction fee is zero, the effective difficulty is equal to the baseline difficulty. The effective difficulty will decrease as transaction fee accumulates. Therefore, it is more difficult to mine at the beginning of rounds. This will also punish those miners who refuse to include transactions in their blocks.

The fee will contribute to the mining reward in the far future, which will slow down the depletion of the mining reward.

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October 18, 2012, 03:43:16 PM
 #32

to have a Mt Gox code you need to have at least one confirm. For me to do what you are saying is I will have to have a balance left with the bank of my BTC. It would be like a debt card not a credit card.

That will be find for most uses but I'm sure there is a case where fast will come in handy.
You can have Trustless, instant, off-the-chain Bitcoin payments. It does require you to tie up funds with a specific processor/bank; but it does not require you to have a balance, that is, the processor cannot steal or lose your coins, and if something goes wrong you get the tied-up coins back at the end of the term.

It's not perfect but I think it's powerful enough that the whole confirmation time debate is moot.

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October 18, 2012, 03:51:24 PM
 #33


LTC works and is solid.


Lol

Works as well as Bitcoin.  Because it is Bitcoin, with a few tweaks to make it seem like something new for all the early adopter jonesers,
but doesn't add anything significant.  So it is as solid as solidcoin.  The fact that a scambag like Goat has taken an interest in it is excuse
enough for me to avoid it.   

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October 19, 2012, 12:47:38 AM
 #34

This is why I have always thought that Bitcoin would not ever replace other currency in its entirety. Society simply does not have the patience to wait around for their money to go through. We are a want it gotta have it now society.
 

Well too bad that could not apply to pre-ordered asic's Smiley
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October 19, 2012, 03:58:07 AM
 #35

We need a feedback mechanism to minimize very long rounds (and less importantly, very short rounds). I have proposed this before.

Instead of collecting transaction fee, miners will use transaction fee to offset part of the mining difficulty. For example, today's difficulty is about 3,000,000 ("baseline difficulty") and block reward is 50BTC. If the total transaction fee is 0.1BTC, which is 0.2% of block reward, the miner will only need to mine the block with difficulty = 3,000,000*(1-0.002) = 2,994,000 (effective difficulty).

In the 90-minutes block, the transaction fee was 0.612BTC, which would reduce the effective difficulty and expected block discovery time by 1.22%.

This scheme will also minimize very short rounds: at the beginning of rounds which transaction fee is zero, the effective difficulty is equal to the baseline difficulty. The effective difficulty will decrease as transaction fee accumulates. Therefore, it is more difficult to mine at the beginning of rounds. This will also punish those miners who refuse to include transactions in their blocks.

The fee will contribute to the mining reward in the far future, which will slow down the depletion of the mining reward.

… so … the miners would include transactions (of course without broadcasting these) with many Ƀs in transaction fees, just to reduce their personal difficulty. As every miner will put all his coins into such fake transactions, we would thus end up in proof of stake disguised as proof of work mining Grin Grin

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October 19, 2012, 04:29:05 AM
 #36

We need a feedback mechanism to minimize very long rounds (and less importantly, very short rounds). I have proposed this before.

Instead of collecting transaction fee, miners will use transaction fee to offset part of the mining difficulty. For example, today's difficulty is about 3,000,000 ("baseline difficulty") and block reward is 50BTC. If the total transaction fee is 0.1BTC, which is 0.2% of block reward, the miner will only need to mine the block with difficulty = 3,000,000*(1-0.002) = 2,994,000 (effective difficulty).

In the 90-minutes block, the transaction fee was 0.612BTC, which would reduce the effective difficulty and expected block discovery time by 1.22%.

This scheme will also minimize very short rounds: at the beginning of rounds which transaction fee is zero, the effective difficulty is equal to the baseline difficulty. The effective difficulty will decrease as transaction fee accumulates. Therefore, it is more difficult to mine at the beginning of rounds. This will also punish those miners who refuse to include transactions in their blocks.

The fee will contribute to the mining reward in the far future, which will slow down the depletion of the mining reward.

… so … the miners would include transactions (of course without broadcasting these) with many Ƀs in transaction fees, just to reduce their personal difficulty. As every miner will put all his coins into such fake transactions, we would thus end up in proof of stake disguised as proof of work mining Grin Grin

The miners may do so but they won't get their coins back since the transaction fee will subsidize future block reward. Doing this is equivalent to reduce mining variance by receiving less reward. It is also very risky when the block becomes orphaned and the whole world will see those transactions. We may also have a limit for the amount of difficulty reduced.

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October 19, 2012, 02:02:08 PM
 #37

Soon all the GPU miners will be using LTC and not BTC. Only the ASIC miners will have BTC.

Your premise that one's choice of currency is based on what one can mine, and not on what has the most support among merchants, traders, and exchanges, is questionable at best.

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October 19, 2012, 02:13:14 PM
 #38

Soon all the GPU miners will be using LTC and not BTC. Only the ASIC miners will have BTC.

Your premise that one's choice of currency is based on what one can mine, and not on what has the most support among merchants, traders, and exchanges, is questionable at best.
not even talking about the fact that mining BTC with CPU/similiar gives you more reward than LTC. Well thats the market Wink
LTC is a nice idea, it just needs a place to fit.

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October 19, 2012, 04:14:53 PM
 #39

Soon all the GPU miners will be using LTC and not BTC. Only the ASIC miners will have BTC.

Your premise that one's choice of currency is based on what one can mine, and not on what has the most support among merchants, traders, and exchanges, is questionable at best.

Right now BTC and LTC price is based on speculation. The difficulty of LTC will go way high and price will follow. Just watch... econ 101 supply and demand...




Difficulty follows price, not vice versa.

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October 19, 2012, 05:11:52 PM
 #40

Society simply does not have the patience to wait around for their money to go through. We are a want it gotta have it now society.
 

ya I love it when I get to pay 5% and have to wait 3 days to send money overseas too.....

90 minutes? 0.001%? Outrage!



You are not the norm. Most people want it now and do not care about a fee. For example; credit cards and the fee's that are charged to merchants and get passed on to product cost. Most people know about those fees and simply do not care because they got their instant gratification.

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