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Question: What 2.0 Currency do you think will be the most successful?
NXT - 74 (30.6%)
NEM - 73 (30.2%)
Ethereum - 25 (10.3%)
Qora / Qora 2.0 - 1 (0.4%)
Crypti - 18 (7.4%)
BitShares 2.0 - 43 (17.8%)
Skycoin - 5 (2.1%)
None - 3 (1.2%)
Total Voters: 242

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Author Topic: What 2.0 Currency will be the most successful?  (Read 17787 times)
testz
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September 30, 2015, 09:02:22 AM
 #21

Obviously, PoS started with Peercoin.  There was a reason I ended the sentence with "as it's accepted today".  You should and I know that Peercoin's PoS is inferior to NXT's PoS implementation.

Inferior in which area? As I know Peercoin has less theoretical PoS security problems because it's using PoS and PoW simultaneously.

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September 30, 2015, 09:03:27 AM
 #22

Obviously, PoS started with Peercoin.  There was a reason I ended the sentence with "as it's accepted today".  You should and I know that Peercoin's PoS is inferior to NXT's PoS implementation.

Inferior in which area? As I know Peercoin has less theoretical PoS security problems because it's using PoS and PoW simultaneously.

AFAIK Peercoin uses centralized checkpoints and opens up the possibility of stake grinding. But I'm not 100% certain. Smiley In the end DPoS is probably one of the best PoS integrations, as it scales wonderful and allows the blocktime to be very fast/constant.

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September 30, 2015, 09:09:35 AM
 #23

Obviously, PoS started with Peercoin.  There was a reason I ended the sentence with "as it's accepted today".  You should and I know that Peercoin's PoS is inferior to NXT's PoS implementation.

Inferior in which area? As I know Peercoin has less theoretical PoS security problems because it's using PoS and PoW simultaneously.

AFAIK Peercoin uses centralized checkpoints and opens up the possibility of stake grinding. But I'm not 100% certain. Smiley In the end DPoS is probably one of the best PoS integrations, as it scales wonderful and allows the blocktime to be very fast/constant.

I dislike DPOS because of the necessity for people to vote on delegates. Now this may work perfectly fine in such an enclosed envirement that we're in right now where the userbase is very small but I doubt it'll work very well if any DPOS ever hit's mainstream. No normal user wants to be bothered with stuff like that. They want stuff to just work so the majority of users prob wont vote which kinda defeats the point of the excercise. As always - maybe I'm missing something Smiley

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September 30, 2015, 09:11:04 AM
 #24

Obviously, PoS started with Peercoin.  There was a reason I ended the sentence with "as it's accepted today".  You should and I know that Peercoin's PoS is inferior to NXT's PoS implementation.

Inferior in which area? As I know Peercoin has less theoretical PoS security problems because it's using PoS and PoW simultaneously.

AFAIK Peercoin uses centralized checkpoints and opens up the possibility of stake grinding. But I'm not 100% certain. Smiley

AFAIK Peercoin has centralized checkpoints during growing period and they will be removed at version 0.5, more info in SunnyKing updates:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114994.msg12442500#msg12442500

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September 30, 2015, 09:11:19 AM
 #25

None of them.

This.

I don't see any altcoin come as far as bitcoin. They already missed the boat before they even were made.



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September 30, 2015, 09:22:06 AM
 #26

I dislike DPOS because of the necessity for people to vote on delegates. Now this may work perfectly fine in such an enclosed envirement that we're in right now where the userbase is very small but I doubt it'll work very well if any DPOS ever hit's mainstream. No normal user wants to be bothered with stuff like that. They want stuff to just work so the majority of users prob wont vote which kinda defeats the point of the excercise. As always - maybe I'm missing something Smiley

You should be familiar with Bitcoin block size fighting, so in DPOS you can control something but for this you should vote, in Bitcoin you can't control anything, big pool owners will think about anything for you and you can only post your personal opinion in the forums and try to protect your investments in Bitcoin.

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September 30, 2015, 10:01:33 AM
 #27

of cause Crypti.
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September 30, 2015, 10:04:35 AM
 #28

Ethereum doesn't have a valid consensus mechanism yet, so nobody can even guess as to it's future.  Before even addressing the other coins, you have to first acknowledge that scaling is important.  A cryptocurrency is basically useless if it requires off-chain transactions to function, especially a 2.0 platform that's supposed to do much more than Bitcoin like operate exchanges.

Out of that list, Bitshares has the best scaling due to DPoS.  NXT, if it ever gets transparent forging working, would have less TPS and slower block times, but better than other coins except Bitshares.  Transparent forging is kind of like recreating DPoS in a more Rube Goldberg approach:

For standard proof of stake, the end game stake scenario results in people having to pool or lease their stake, otherwise there's no point to stake at all.  They're delegating their vote power to determine the longest chain to the pool owner.  The act of doing so results in two things.  First, you've recreated the centralization of PoW pool mining, where most of the blocks are being validated by a handful of people and one out of million being done by some random guy.  Secondly, you've also recreated DPoS, just a less efficient, less decentralized way of doing so.  Most blocks being signed by a few pools vs larger number of block validators in DPoS.

Due to this, I would say Bitshares has highest chance of success, followed by NXT out of the list.
You seem to be a serious and intelligent person. I wonder why you never looked deeper into NEM. You should...
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September 30, 2015, 10:07:53 AM
 #29

What is the difference between Qora and Qora 2.0 ? Are those 2 distinct projects ? If yes, they chould get their own poll option. If not then there is really no reason to mention both of them. Why mention versions especially if one is obsolete ?

On topic: Didn't vote cuz biased. I do wanna point out that success will not only be determined by technology though. Look at bitcoin. By now vastly inferior technology yet still the main actor in the main stream (if crypto has even penetrated mainstream yet).
From what im aware, basically its their next generation platform, i believe new devs have taken over and are rewriting the code with a new blockchain to replace the old. They will require everyone to switch over.

NEM, THE SECURE, SCALABLE BLOCKCHAIN [NEM.IO] [T.ME/NEMRED]
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September 30, 2015, 10:19:44 AM
 #30

Stake leasing (centralization) isn't required in NXT's PoS.

Of course it's required.  That's like claiming pool mining in Bitcoin isn't required.  It's only not required when the coin price is low per unit and it's being used for virtually nothing, with no widespread distribution or demand (i.e. now).  Hey guys!  I'm not centralized because it's possible to solo mine Bitcoin if I spend $10 million dollars!  

With widespread adoption, you would need tons of cash to solo stake.  Due to the way transparent forging would work, you would most likely not be able to allow hundreds of thousands of people to stake either.  You would probably need to set a minimum stake amount required to be allowed in at all, while culling off all the others.  In this manner you've recreated DPoS except with no sybil protection.  With transparent forging, the need to pool your stake (delegated voting) increases even more as well.

Virtually everything that you complain about for Bitshares claiming it's centralized also applies to NXT and Bitcoin.  They are far more similar than not.  The main difference is, DPoS starts off with the acknowledgement that PoW and PoS both use delegation and engineers the voting process to do so in the protocol itself.  The other two are using a more Rube Goldberg approach to reach the same destination of delegation.

Here's your own hero, "come-from-beyond", telling you NXT isn't going to fit your definition of "decentralized" so you better sell off your NXT now:



See also:

The Bitcoin consensus mechanism is incorrectly labeled Proof of Work

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1176835.0

Satoshi didn't solve the Byzantine generals problem

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1183043.0


I dislike DPOS because of the necessity for people to vote on delegates. Now this may work perfectly fine in such an enclosed envirement that we're in right now where the userbase is very small but I doubt it'll work very well if any DPOS ever hit's mainstream.

DPoS actually scales to world reserve currency better than any other consensus mechanism.  The first transition for DPoS voting would be people like exchange owners and businesses that utilize the platform would run as delegates to make sure the network they depend on is secure.  From there, the actors would just keep scaling larger until you had every nation state as a delegate.  Some people would think this sounds like a bad thing, but unless every nation was colluding with each other, it would get rid of fractional reserve banking at the very least, which is the real root of all problems.

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September 30, 2015, 10:49:39 AM
 #31

This.

I don't see any altcoin come as far as bitcoin. They already missed the boat before they even were made.

This ignorance is the reason why bitcoin is failing to adapt.

Bitcoin is a great POC which currently has the best adoption, but it has flaws ( mostly mining ). Now bitcoin is like a big ship heading in the wrong direction. While the altcoins may have missed your big ship, some of them are now smaller boats that are still looking for the right direction. Let's talk again in 10 years and see if there is still no altcoin that has surpassed BTC.

I doubt it , but don't understand me wrong, I love BTC. It just wasn't designed to be a blockchain platform.
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September 30, 2015, 12:06:49 PM
 #32

BitShares 2.0
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September 30, 2015, 12:12:42 PM
 #33

Crypti of course

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September 30, 2015, 01:46:57 PM
 #34

None of them.

This.

I don't see any altcoin come as far as bitcoin. They already missed the boat before they even were made.

bitcoin will always survive as a name
any kind of crypto payment and crypto business will be called bitcoin

same is we talk now about bitcoin 2.0 abilities

but bitcoin dont haven them........


bitcoins fate is a dinosaur not able to adapt stick on old codebase because different powers cant agree on code changes
and deepend on extenal companies to have something like bitcoin 2.0

but example counterparty or any coloured coin solotion could easy switch to another more advanced blockchain without any impact for its userbase

the only area where i can see hope for bitcoin is to be the crypto gold

basical somthing noone move around or utilize but use as a storage of value

in that area bitcoin is now still great because it have the highest liquidity and marketcap

in every other area bitcoin already lost the crown and its ignorrance to not see the facts

 
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September 30, 2015, 02:47:19 PM
 #35

I also think - none of them  Wink 2.0 Currency is in fact the future question of many factors, first of all - popularity  Grin
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September 30, 2015, 03:06:57 PM
Last edit: September 30, 2015, 03:31:15 PM by Fuserleer
 #36

Out of that list, Bitshares has the best scaling due to DPoS.  NXT, if it ever gets transparent forging working, would have less TPS and slower block times, but better than other coins except Bitshares.  Transparent forging is kind of like recreating DPoS in a more Rube Goldberg approach:

DPoS is just a centralized version of NXT's PoS which was implemented so the Larimers and a select group of manipulators (aka the Communist Chinese Gov) can effectively rig the delegate elections through "approval voting" and control the platform.  Also, Bitshares ridiculous claim of 100k tps requires hardware with 1TB of ram.

NXT didn't invent PoS, so you should probably stop lying about that.  NXT will also not be worth buying until someone can demonstrate they can even get transparent forging working on the platform.  I honestly can't believe you're dumb enough to claim Bitshares can't do 100k TPS.  NXT, which would be using an inferior method of deterministic block validation claims similar numbers.  That was also Dan Hughes of Emunie claiming it requires 1TB of RAM, a guy who doesn't even know how Bitshares works. Tendermint claims 40,000 TPS functionality as well.  You think Tendermint is lying too?  Bitshares can do whatever Tendermint can do or more.  NXT will likely do less than Bitshares while also having slower block times due to the way it's structured.

Bitshares is beating NXT to the market with both high scaling and stable market pegged assets, the two things actually required for crypto to go mainstream.  Nobody wants to hold crypto until it has stability like the dollar.

Well seeing as Larimer himself said the solution is to "...keep everything in RAM..."  how much RAM to do think is required to keep up with a sustained 100,000 tps if it is indeed true?

You don't need to know anything about how that system works when these statements have been, 120 bytes per transaction * 100,000 transactions per second * 86400 seconds in a day = 1,036,800,000,000 bytes (almost 1TB) per day of data.  However you cut it that is a lot of data to manage efficiently in a vertically scaled system (which Bitshares is).  

If you have to go to disc even the fastest PCI SSDs will struggle to do 100,000 random reads per second after some moderate use, unless you are doing very aggressive and efficient disc management at a low level to ensure they are stored sequentially.  Even without considering transactions arriving out of order from the network, that in itself is no trivial task.  

Even batch writing large blocks of transactions to reduce the required IOPs might not cut it, as you have no guarantee that the SSD controller is going to (or even can) write them in one consecutive chunk.  If the controller wants to move data around so it can do this, that is additional overhead and your max IOPs will drop anyway.

If the RAM requirements are low, then you will be swapping out those transactions in RAM constantly, so then you are asking an already utilized IO stream to do 100,000 reads AND 100,000 writes each second on top of processing.

My issue isn't that 100,000 transactions can not be processed per second, my issue is that sustaining that processing capability with RAM and IO limitations is not as trivial as is being made out, and anyone with even a basic understanding of IO systems should be able to see it.

I believe this 100,000 tps relates to the systems ability to order match as he mentioned that specifically in the videos relating to this topic, and NOT a sustained network load of new transaction processing capability.

Also this little snippet

Quote
Real-Time Performance

While we are convinced that the architecture is capable of 100,000 transactions per second, real world usage is unlikely to require anywhere near that performance for quite some time. Even the NASDAQ only processes 35,000 messages (aka operations) per second and has only been tested to 60,000 TPS with eventual plans to upgrade to 100,000.

We set up a benchmark to test real-time performance and found that we could easily process over 2000 transactions per second with signature verification on a single machine. On release, the transaction throughput will be artificially limited to just 1000 transactions-per-second.
 

found here https://bitshares.org/blog/2015/06/08/measuring-performance/

Also makes me question this 100,000 tps in the real world, as their OWN benchmarks could only achieve 2000+   Its still a lot sure, but its not 100,000 tps is it?  So what is going on?  

The real world benchmarks can not have produced much more performance than 2000 tps, because if it had they would say.   For example, if it produced 20,000 tps why claim it only resulted in 2000?  So I conclude from that also, that the 100,000 is either wrong/false or presented in a confusing context.

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September 30, 2015, 03:43:05 PM
 #37


...

DPoS actually scales to world reserve currency better than any other consensus mechanism.  The first transition for DPoS voting would be people like exchange owners and businesses that utilize the platform would run as delegates to make sure the network they depend on is secure.  From there, the actors would just keep scaling larger until you had every nation state as a delegate.  Some people would think this sounds like a bad thing, but unless every nation was colluding with each other, it would get rid of fractional reserve banking at the very least, which is the real root of all problems.

Cause what could go wrong with nations and/or corporations being in controll of the network Grin
I'd like to see consensus being reached like it is in most "fast confirmation" implementations right now (i.e. a set of accounts votes and everyone else accepts that) but I'd like the validating parties to be chosen in some way that doesn't require people having to or even being able to interfere. Pretty much what VNL claims to be doing just maybe backed by a proper whitepaper and not by one of the most shady projects out there right now.

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September 30, 2015, 04:12:05 PM
 #38

@nzminer

With all due respect - you probably can't enter eMunie in that poll list for 2 reasons:

  • It has only been tested in the founder group, and older obsolete versions with a few beta-testers also.
  • It is not just a 'coin' - it is a complete, comprehensive package, which you will experience after it goes live, and expanding in the future.

I am no seer into the future, but I would not be surprised if your poll list will become obsolete.
Once eMunie launches it will probably rank more as a 3.0 compared to the rest being 2.0 Wink
Again - let's see what the future holds - noone knows yet.

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September 30, 2015, 05:54:16 PM
 #39

If you don’t believe me or don’t get it, I don’t have time to try to convince you, sorry:

Satoshi, that you?  Tongue

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September 30, 2015, 05:56:47 PM
 #40

Ive listed the main ones i can think of, if there is anything else you would like added, post it below and i will add it Smiley

None of the above
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