Bitcoin Forum
December 12, 2017, 09:22:27 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: LOAN to start a UK payment gateway  (Read 4426 times)
jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 22, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
 #1

Hi there, i am looking to start a UK based version of what bitinstant offers. Why? you might ask. Because I believe that there is a gap in the market. I have myself been frustrated by the loss of potential bitcoins due to the exchange rate from GBP to dollars. then the moneygram fee's then the other fees with sites like bitinstant.

i propose to make a site that accepts UK Pound sterling direct (sameday (same hour dependant on your bank) which purchases them at a flat 6% costs. This fee will reduce but is set at 6% to repay the loan interest. When the loan is paid off the transaction fee for customers will go down.

So what do I need a loan for? For the initial customers to receive BTC. I have been informed to use BTCJam.com as my middleman. So this is what i have done. Feel free to  view the proposal on their and fund my project as i already have a list of people waiting to 'get in' to bitcoin using UK Pound sterling, without the headaches.

https://btcjam.com/listings/166
1513070547
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513070547

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513070547
Reply with quote  #2

1513070547
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1513070547
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513070547

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1513070547
Reply with quote  #2

1513070547
Report to moderator
Bitcoin Oz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700


Wat


View Profile WWW
October 22, 2012, 09:27:33 PM
 #2

Good luck.  Smiley

jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 22, 2012, 09:36:31 PM
 #3

I hope so, i have come across many people hating the dollars control over getting into bitcoin. Us English folk are finding it hard to spread the value of BTC to other english folk due to the dollars dominance. So that's one of the first triggers that gave me the idea.
First:
make it easier for UK to get into Bitcoin
Secondly:
Once the loan is paid off start holding a percentage of sterling (not converted back to bitcoin) to offer a pre-paid debit card for cashing out in UK Pound Sterling. Which will then give me a influx of bitcoins to set aside for UK Pound sterling. and also Pound sterling from customers 'getting in' to set aside for Bitcoin 'cashing out' users. lessening the reliance of third parties.
Thirdly:
Offer the same debit card to UK businesses so they can too accept bitcoin and have access to UK Pound Sterling for their wage, stock requirements.
Fourthly:
Seek out their suppliers to accept Bitcoins via me so that the requirement of the merchants to use only sterling becomes less, and gives me more business. loosening the control which FIAT has on businesses.

But for now step one is important to get set up, correctly and properly. 2,3,4 are further down the road.
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1876



View Profile
October 22, 2012, 10:58:15 PM
 #4

When its live, ill use u. I have been searching high and low for a UK based bitcoin provider. One idea might be to use ur profits to buy some mining equipment to produce ur own coins to add to ur income potential.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 22, 2012, 11:03:58 PM
 #5

Thank you. I will PM you when it goes live along with the other interested parties. I want to get this project started sooner not later so using a loan to buy ASICS which still do not have a confirmed delivery date, knowing that I have to repay it. Would cost me more money, then I would make. So I will just use the loan to get UK sterling to then buy more Bitcoins, rinse and repeat multiple times.
But once I get passed the loan, when its repaid in full and I am making my own profits. Basically, when ASICS finally reach peoples doorsteps with a reasonable order to delivery timeframe. I might just do that.
But for now, profiting and repaying a loan by direct transactions between people is where my mindset is currently.
BlackHeartFund
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126



View Profile
October 23, 2012, 06:31:16 PM
 #6

Do you have a business plan and/or prospectus? Your idea has potential an I am interested.
Vod
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2226


Licking my boob since 1970


View Profile WWW
October 23, 2012, 06:46:35 PM
 #7

Do you have a business plan and/or prospectus? Your idea has potential an I am interested.

Business plan:  Get 150 bitcoins and disappear.   Undecided

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
I will ignore your Prayer Messages unless you donate to 1CDyx8AUTiYXS1ThcBU3vy4SJWQq6pdFMH
BitcoinTalk Public Information Project - Building Database!
Tomatocage
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526

brb keeping up with the Kardashians


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
 #8

Do you have a business plan and/or prospectus? Your idea has potential an I am interested.

Business plan:  Get 150 bitcoins and disappear.   Undecided

Hey, it works for a lot of people "apparently".

THIS SPOT FOR RENT* | GPG ID: 4880D85C | 1% Escrow | 8% IPO/ICO Escrow services Temporarily Closed | Bitcointalk is the ONLY place where I use this name (No Skype/IRC/YIM/AIM/etc) | 13CsmTqGNwvFXb7tD9yFvJcEYCDTB8wQTS | Beware of these SCAM sites! | *Sponsored Link
repentance
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 07:12:11 PM
 #9

Have you even checked whether you'd need a licence from the FSA?  What on earth makes you think that launching a payment gateway with such a small amount of capital would be viable?  Have you obtained any legal advice regarding this idea?  What anti-fraud measures will you have in place? How are you going to avoid the problems which other Bitcoin services have encountered with UK banks?  How much of your own money are you putting towards this venture?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 09:22:59 PM
 #10

I thank you for your replies and questions. I will ignore the trolls about scams, as I am not asking for a loan to feed 5 kids or for hospital bills or pretending to be a female asking for a boob job, offering the investor a view once healed. Lol I have plans on using this loan to make money and repay.

Have you even checked whether you'd need a licence from the FSA?

Yes I have checked out the legality of the matter.
If you are a UK resident you will know that people selling products and services do not need to become members of FSA to be regulated by them. For instance gambling websites that accept FIAT in exchange for poker chips do not need to be FSA regulated members, but they do need a gambling licence from another UK agency. My service does not gamble or trade in cigarettes, alcohol or firearms so requires no licences. Plus FSA use the term members not licences.

Have you obtained any legal advice regarding this idea?  

Yes, and on a separate note while talking to an advisor the myth that the GLBSE disappeared due to anything FSA related is a false statement made by someone that has no idea what FSA actually do. But concentrating on my business, as long as I do not sell illegal products direct, there are no issues. Bitcoin is not illegal, so no one should fear governments raiding your bitcoin client wallets dry.

How are you going to avoid the problems which other Bitcoin services have encountered with UK banks?

I have found a solution to this because, while alpha testing my service I found out that an actual UK bank account transfer is slow where some banks do not instantly deposit funds. I do have a more detailed explanation of how I got around this but I don’t want to make it public for others to compete. Any serious investor can PM me about the plan as long as it doesn’t show the entirety of the plan on public forums for people to steal my idea. Let’s just hint at the use of a prepaid card that customers top up my master account (shows instantly) from banks, post offices, shops anywhere that you see a 'paypoint' that people use to top up mobile phones and their electricity/gas budget keys.  I thank god for this as it solves your banking question and helps me get closer to my next phase I had planned in one swoop, Withdrawals via prepaid cards.

What on earth makes you think that launching a payment gateway with such a small amount of capital would be viable?

My customers, is my answer. At first I did envision I would require many thousands, but then I found out that my current list of interested customers only want to put in £100 - £250 at a time.  When the fee's decrease after the loan is paid off, they would pay in more regularly. (Basically small percentage of their wage cheque each week) so I found having thousands of coins sat there each day, with only 10-15BTC transferring between each customer was totalling about 150ish a day.  Thousands of coins would be a waste, as they would bump interest costs up. Where the majority of thousands of coins would just sit there not making money. My ethos is to never ask for more then you need or can repay.
I can use the FIAT funds obtained to get more coins within an hour so when business does pick up beyond a 250BTC an hour cap. Fresh coins would be available within the hour plus with each transaction I can get more coins then I sold using the first transactions funds. Thus rinse and repeating into profit. Yes 250 cap so that I have 50BTC sat to ready to repay the 20BTC weekly loan repayment. Which as profits increase would change the cap value.

What anti-fraud measures will you have in place?
No PayPal is taken so the chargeback kings of eBay can’t do their tricks. With regards to my service, NO Hot wallet just a database of non valuable information. No information in source code related to the location of the off server management system. But everything is handled off server, and the server/website is just a transaction/request display.
How much of your own money are you putting towards this venture?
I also have 150BTC (totalling 300BTC which explains the final paragraph in the small capital question) but anyone in business knows it’s best to have some assurances. EG UK retailers use creditors to pay the suppliers and the retailer pays them.

Initial estimates of income are 150BTC a day ( 1050 a week) which at 6% is over 63BTC a week, easily 3 times more than loan repayment requires. This is just based on the few interested customers I already have listed. Investors have their 20BTC a week I keep the 40BTC and increase my BTC funds until loan repaid and I am self sufficient. But as you can see by a 250BTC an hour possibility, my profits can be huge.
Feel free to post more questions

here is the link to the BTCJAM
https://btcjam.com/listings/166
repentance
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 09:30:34 PM
 #11

How are you going to avoid the problems which other Bitcoin services have encountered with UK banks?
i have found a solution to this because, while alpha testing my service I found out that an actual UK bank account transfer is slow where some banks do not instantly deposit funds. I do have a more detailed explanation of how I got around this but I don’t want to make it public for others to compete. Any serious investor can PM me the plan as long as it doesn’t show the entirety of the plan on public forums for people to steal my idea. Let’s just hint at the use of a prepaid card that fresh customer top up my master account (shows instantly).  I thank god for this as it solves your banking question and helps me get closer to my next phase I had planned in one swoop, Withdrawals via prepaid cards.

I'm more interested in why you think that your service won't encounter the same AML/KYC compliance problems with the banks which other services have had to deal with, resulting in the sudden freezing/shut-down of their bank accounts - something which would be absolutely catastrophic to your service given the business model you've outlined.

You've also said nothing which addresses the issue of whether you'd be regarded as operating a financial service or selling a financial product under UK law.  Potential investors are going to want more than just your assurances on this - it's totally reasonable for them to require a written legal opinion setting out why your service will be exempt from regulation.

Also, potential investors are going to be less interested in best case scenarios (this mythical land in which you have no significant over-heads and nobody ever rips you off and your bank doesn't slam you with KYC/AML issues) than they are in worst case scenarios.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
Vod
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2226


Licking my boob since 1970


View Profile WWW
October 23, 2012, 09:52:46 PM
 #12

I thank you for your replies and questions. I will ignore the trolls about scams, as I am not asking for a loan to feed 5 kids or for hospital bills or pretending to be a female asking for a boob job

I'm not a troll.  I take pride in saving forum newbies from scammers like you.   Wink

People are getting more creative in their scams.  You refuse to identify yourself and you're asking for over $1500 of our money for some crazy scheme in which you think you'll make 150btc a day.  

Just because you're willing to take a few minutes and type up some large paragraphs does not make you any more trustworthy.  The chances you will take the coins and run is high.

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
I will ignore your Prayer Messages unless you donate to 1CDyx8AUTiYXS1ThcBU3vy4SJWQq6pdFMH
BitcoinTalk Public Information Project - Building Database!
jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 10:35:12 PM
 #13

lets entertain the  troll accusing scams at every juncture. Especially with a lie in their statement. my username gives out my identity and my BTCJam has more. I am not hiding behind pseudonyms like nefario or pirate. and i have never refused anything. I was told only drug dealers need anonymity and anyone with a legal business plan should not hide behind pseudonyms and should not avoid using middlemen like btcjam to protect investors. read my posts.. I have been honest. I am not going to make up a dodgy pseudonym like pirate. Then prance about on forums for months trolling just to get 1000's of posts to seem legit then have a sudden eureka moment abut a business. nor am i gong to do penny loans to buy reputation. As that is all fake. I have a business plan and I want to get it started now not in 3 months of trolling to fake credibility. i am starting to see why BFLJOSH aka INABA gets frustrated at trolls when its obvious they are delivering products.

now the entertainment is over, onto the serious questions
The AML/KYC is half American legal terminology. But lets deal with it anyway. those other Bitcoin services that used these terms as excuses to shutdown, were just that, excuses. notes from what my advisor said was that unless my business sold illegal materials direct or advertised it would exchange tainted drug money for clean freshly mined coins for a profit cuts, i am fine.

basically unless i deal direct with illegal products or knowingly accept funds direct from illegal activities then i would be monitored. he also mentioned that for instance if a drug dealer on the street done a drug deal in FIAT, walked into a store and bought a pack of cigarettes and beer using the drug money. would the store owner be arrested for laundering drug funds.

If all these legal scare stories from other companies running off with your funds were actually true, then bitinstant would have been up shit creek without a paddled months ago. I want to be like bitinstant. sailing the sunny sea's of profit, not pretending to be up shit creek without a paddle while running to a deserted island with a treasure chest of gold (pirate analogy  Grin )

bitcoins are not illegal, I was also informed that it is a known fact that 1 in 10 fiat notes in circulation (excluding direct from ATM's) may have drugs residue on them. airports have highlighted this when they do their drug testing on money.

Vod
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2226


Licking my boob since 1970


View Profile WWW
October 23, 2012, 10:44:00 PM
 #14

lets entertain the  troll accusing scams at every juncture. Especially with a lie in their statement. my username gives out my identity and my BTCJam has more. I am not hiding behind pseudonyms like nefario or pirate.

Ok, let me entertain the scammer a bit more.

You've obviously been around the community for a while - makes me wonder why you made up a new account (3 days ago) just to request this loan.  You cough up a common name, give a cell phone number to btcjam, and call that a verified id?

If you have a business plan, why not go to family or friends for money?  If we give you coins, you will simply disappear.  

p.s.  80-90% of bills have drugs on them.   Smiley

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
I will ignore your Prayer Messages unless you donate to 1CDyx8AUTiYXS1ThcBU3vy4SJWQq6pdFMH
BitcoinTalk Public Information Project - Building Database!
jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 11:04:48 PM
 #15

should i entertain this troll??

hmm.

1) yes i have read posts before but thought amungst the 50 pages of trolls for 1 page of useful information that having a login just to read posts was not required.
2) if i only validated my phone i would have a rep of 1 get out from under your rock and check again
3) i myself have invested over £1,700k in this. the loan is to expand capital and have assurances of growth.
4) i seem to think you have never run a business to know how they work and how loans can benefit businesses.
5) 80-90% of YOUR money has drugs residue on them. that is plainly obvious by your drugged paranoia and blatant ignorance of what is wrote. you obviously did not read the answer to the capitol question about MY 150BTC (£1700)...
6) you are not peter griffin.
7) wish there was an ignore button.
anyone with actual questions feel free to reply. im ending this troll reply by ignoring his posts. lets keep this professional
 
repentance
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


View Profile
October 23, 2012, 11:24:51 PM
 #16


The AML/KYC is half American legal terminology. But lets deal with it anyway. those other Bitcoin services that used these terms as excuses to shutdown, were just that, excuses. notes from what my advisor said was that unless my business sold illegal materials direct or advertised it would exchange tainted drug money for clean freshly mined coins for a profit cuts, i am fine.

basically unless i deal direct with illegal products or knowingly accept funds direct from illegal activities then i would be monitored. he also mentioned that for instance if a drug dealer on the street done a drug deal in FIAT, walked into a store and bought a pack of cigarettes and beer using the drug money. would the store owner be arrested for laundering drug funds.

If all these legal scare stories from other companies running off with your funds were actually true, then bitinstant would have been up shit creek without a paddled months ago. I want to be like bitinstant. sailing the sunny sea's of profit, not pretending to be up shit creek without a paddle while running to a deserted island with a treasure chest of gold (pirate analogy  Grin )




I don't know whether you're being deliberately obtuse but AML/KYC is not "half American legal terminology".  It's the legal terminology used by all FATF member nations - the UK is a FATF member.

Nor am I talking about businesses using legal scare stories to run off with people's money.  I'm talking about them having cash flow problems when their banks freeze their accounts because the activity on those trips the banks AML flags.  This has happened on multiple occasions to services which are still operating and it's catastrophic to any service which doesn't have sufficient reserves to cover any frozen funds.

Nothing you've posted makes me believe that you've consulted a lawyer who is familiar with financial services law.  You say that you're modelling your service on BitInstant - which is actually licensed as a retailer of stored value and has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on proper legal advice. Have you even read the AML issues which BitInstant had to consider?

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:RPpi7wWrta4J:https://www.bitinstant.com/static/aml.pdf+&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESibwpiHk1UYElm5461VMZs4YeS1V22QZOSSXFXPVkxwDG_KxelFppTezRHp15Mr8K8iU5fqXqIr4sCY1-R8sUDreil7IZoMw8_a-H5LE30GQL9akw_0hv9D2h5eiKxileIvPT6_&sig=AHIEtbT0UBE-XA7MA94-GnWMg1CeYjtcwA

Again - your "advisor"  needs to specifically address the issue of why you will not be regarded at law as offering a financial service or product, because financial service/product providers are generally regulated in FATF countries and are required by law to implement AML/CTF/KYC measures.  You've made no convincing argument whatsoever that your service would not be subject to financial services regulation.  Your bullshit about cigarettes and alcohol is just that - it's not remotely equivalent and it's not a comparison which anyone practising financial services law would have made.  

Frankly, I don't believe that you have consulted a financial services lawyer.  Your financial projections are also ridiculous.  I'm not willing to call "scammer", but your lack of proper research and preparation marks are the hallmarks of the kind of incompetence which we've seen all too often before in the Bitcoin community.  You're either lying or you're incompetent, and neither one makes you a good investment.

And for fuck's sake tighten up your listing rules BTCjam.  You're going to get a reputation as a scammer haven sooner rather than later if people keep coming here to publicise dodgy listings on your service.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
BlackHeartFund
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126



View Profile
October 23, 2012, 11:59:10 PM
 #17

Good way to spot a scam? When the person immediately labels critics with valid questions as trolls.
Vod
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2226


Licking my boob since 1970


View Profile WWW
October 24, 2012, 12:12:52 AM
 #18

should i entertain this troll??
Do you understand what a troll is?  I don't post to derail topics - I post to warn new users that you cannot be trusted.  You'll find when you stop scamming I'll stop posting.   Wink

2) if i only validated my phone i would have a rep of 1 get out from under your rock and check again
You want us to give you $1,500.  Isn't that worth posting your Facebook account link so we can see it's not fake with zero friends?

3) i myself have invested over £1,700k in this. the loan is to expand capital and have assurances of growth.
Again, got any proof?  Scammers post all kinds of lies.

6) you are not peter griffin.
Never said I was.  My name is Martin Lawrence.  I'm from Edmonton, AB.  My Facebook account has been available to anyone who wants to look it up ever since I started a FB page about Microcash in the Alt coins area. 

7) wish there was an ignore button.
There is.  So far 5-8 scammers have ignored me and hoped I will go away.  Smiley

Good way to spot a scam? When the person immediately labels critics with valid questions as trolls.
They all seem to do that.  They can't answer the questions so they will ignore the questions.

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
I will ignore your Prayer Messages unless you donate to 1CDyx8AUTiYXS1ThcBU3vy4SJWQq6pdFMH
BitcoinTalk Public Information Project - Building Database!
jackdavis1983
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 14


View Profile
October 24, 2012, 12:16:03 AM
 #19

i appreciate your reply repentance, so let’s address the issues in more detailed. I tried to dumb my analogies down as the majority of posters seemed to be of basic legal understanding and I wanted to put it in terms they would understand.

Ok.
You seem to be American by your use of lawyers which in England we call them solicitors or financial advisers. So let’s get to the knitty gritty details.
I wanted to implement phase 2 (withdrawal) at the same time as phase 1 (buying bitcoin) but that takes time due to the facts that the FSA would THEN class me as providing a regulated activity which I am currently dealing with the phase 2 stuff. From current legal stand point in English financial law bitcoin is not recognized as 'money' but a product or service where by purchasing them is not regulated and does not come under FSA regulations. I know we personally consider it as ‘money’ but it has not yet been confirmed as ‘money’ in England.
Many analogies about facebook credits I have read about, poker chips oranges and pears. But my advisor basically says we are purchasing a database of data.
if i was to take UK £ in and have a database saying user Paul has £xx and he traded in pounds on my server this would be regulated activity as having the data in Pound form is ‘e-money’.  But because EG Paul is buying bitcoins, he is buying a product in todays legal terms.
Back to the phase 2 Side of the matter,  where things get trickier. In UK financial law/regulations the bitcoin itself is not the problem when it comes to FSA regulations. It is what I do with the UK Pound between the person paying in and the person cashing out.
American term KYC (know your customer) is indeed used by banks who have financial obligations under laws and regulations to monitor that stuff. But in England it’s not called KYC officially but instead it’s called Customer Due Diligence and as part of my alpha testing and consulting an advisor I have found out that using a prepaid debit card for deposits removes some of those hurdles and sets me up ready for phase 2 once I have all my eggs in one basket. So using your American term KYC is not used with prepaid debit cards.
Also bitinstant is as you said registered as a retailer. Not a financial institution/organisation. Which in England it does not require special licences for the UK equivalent under the sales of goods and services mumbo jumbo.
I do not mean my comments to sound negative or aggressive towards you repentance, as I truly welcome your line of questioning, far more then the peter griffin troll. Feel free to ask more if I missed anything. And sorry if I did, it’s just writing all the stuff and checking notes may make me miss one of the many questions asked.
I personally do not want to come across as a uptight know it all talking like a Harvard graduate using big long words. I am down to earth and try to speak to people in plain English. So forgive my lack of legal terminology
Vod
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2226


Licking my boob since 1970


View Profile WWW
October 24, 2012, 12:23:19 AM
 #20

BUSTED - OP accidentally used the American conversion rate to bitcoins instead of the UK conversion rate.  OP probably lives in the US.

He claimed he had invested about 1700 pounds in his business, or 150 bitcoins.

150 bitcoins currently equals about $1700 US dollars, but only 1100 pounds!  

Too easy.   Smiley

5) 80-90% of YOUR money has drugs residue on them. that is plainly obvious by your drugged paranoia and blatant ignorance of what is wrote. you obviously did not read the answer to the capitol question about MY 150BTC (£1700)...

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
I will ignore your Prayer Messages unless you donate to 1CDyx8AUTiYXS1ThcBU3vy4SJWQq6pdFMH
BitcoinTalk Public Information Project - Building Database!
Pages: [1] 2 3 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!