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Author Topic: Will cryptocurrency succeed through steady price rise or 'hyperbitcoinization'?  (Read 1002 times)
americanpegasus (OP)
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October 04, 2015, 08:58:11 AM
Last edit: October 04, 2015, 11:28:16 AM by americanpegasus
 #1

Let's assume that crypto (perhaps not solely bitcoin) succeeds in becoming the backbone of the entire planet's financial system.  
  
The price will have to rise until its marketcap is at least in the trillions, and considering the advantages that velocity of money brings it is likely that we will quickly eclipse the GDP of Earth once cryptocurrency gets in swing.  
  
But how does it get there?  Will it be a slowly and steady swell through the years (I'm thinking if it happens, it will surely happen by 2030), or will there be some magic tipping point where it will become a mad dash and we will see the fabled "hyperbitcoinization"?  
  
 
  
I'm at odds trying to visualize how it would happen: on one hand a slow and steady rise makes sense as larger and larger entities get involved and support cryptocurrency (and the technology matures).  On the other hand, humans are rarely so rational.  What's your thoughts?

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October 04, 2015, 10:11:39 AM
 #2

Your graph seems a bit steep (wasn't it posted in a different thread as well a while ago?)

I don't think I will be a gradual linear increase, it will have some major peaks during hype moments and the resulting trend line will likely be exponential as we reach some critical levels of acceptance.
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October 04, 2015, 10:23:59 AM
 #3

even the most delusional bull must agree that the bitcoin price can not go to trillions. i assume u meant market cap ?
americanpegasus (OP)
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October 04, 2015, 11:22:54 AM
 #4

Your graph seems a bit steep (wasn't it posted in a different thread as well a while ago?)

I don't think I will be a gradual linear increase, it will have some major peaks during hype moments and the resulting trend line will likely be exponential as we reach some critical levels of acceptance.

Yes, it's from the most bullish bitcoin thread of all time, where the guy uses math of PID controller to predict a titanic tipping point where the value of Earth floods into crypto in a meteoric rise of the Gods (quoted below):   
 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=800330.0 
 
After last nights excursion into how bitcoin adoption plays out, I played around with some charts. Broadly based around these concepts.

A. There is an underlying sigmoid function (wikipedia'd that one!) that drives base valuation - the adoption curve.
B. That the market price is some cyclical function underpinned by the base valuation (A).
C. We end with widespread adoption after about 10 years, representing a base value of BTC based on some percentage of the economy. I picked risto's $300k because its as good a figure as any Smiley

If you use the function tan^-1 to model the s-curve
If you use some function such as sin to model a cycle

Then all is left to do is set up some start and end points, and mess around with modifiers to amplitude and frequency of the cyclical input, and rate of adoption of S-curve.

After trying out a variety of values it became obvious this was just an exercise in throwing darts Smiley - if it wasn't already obvious this is not a method of trying to predict highs and lows so you can trade your way to victory. It is more an exercise in preparing mentally for the magnitude of movement that one might expect were these assumptions of mass market adoption true.

It became clear, that it doesn't matter what values you put in. There is always some point where, despite how incredible/insane you think BTC price has been up to know, it pales compared to what it would need to do to fulfil this kind of projection.

No matter how you try to tame this model, doing so makes early movements far too placid.

Eventually I settled on a model that roughly followed the trend up to $1200ish with a sell off to about $400, then zoomed out to see how those parameters unfold over the 10 year adoption curve.

I got this...



I though this is ridiculous, it can't possibly happen. Then I thought, how else *could* it happen.

*if* it is ever to go mainstream. like a serious part of the world economy mainstream, there has to be a tipping point. Up until now the whole bitcoin market cap has been toy money compared to the kind of numbers that are thrown around when people start talking about things like the money supply, and absolute chicken feed compared to things like derivatives.

There has already been talk that the most recent price spike was 'the last time'. People claim everybody already knows about bitcoin, its all over now. I think this is nonsense. If I go out in the street and do a spot survey on people, your answers range from "oh yeah I think i heard of it on the news one time" to "huh?". The man in the street does *not* know about bitcoin. Anyone claiming they do is merely demonstrating their embarrassingly limited world view. Maybe every one of your online mates knows about it, but bitcoin isn't WoW gold. In a 'success' scenario - widespread adoption - it's slightly more relevant on a global IRL scale.

Wall st has indeed come. Its just that people are looking at things from the wrong angle. Wall st is part of the infrastructure that is currently rising up, such that once everyone notices what has happened. It's already happened.

To get to 300k we have to get through 3k and 30k. When the world's eyes turn to what bitcoin has become, then there will be no orderly queue, and understandable rise. It will be full on (mask) hysteria. The rise to 32 was when the neck beards were buying into a 7200BTC per day production. The rise to 266 was the first wave of internet interest, the rise to $1200 was a continuation fuelled the rest of the plugged in generation. It made the MSM which may have fuelled a little speculation. That's when things got serious.

Governments have noticed it, powerful people have noticed it, *banks* have noticed it. Right now we are in a perfect storm of the aftermath of a huge overshoot on the purchase of mining equipment - this is *fact* as evidence by the hash rate/difficulty.

This will take time to unravel. It surely will though, as irrational as people are, they will eventually stop flushing money down the mining drain. That money will turn towards the supply. As it becomes obvious the bottom is in, that is when people will start the next run up. Only this time it isn't going to be just neckbeards, redditors, hipsters and anonymous, it will be institutions. That have pretty much unlimited buying power by virtue of them essentially being able to print their own money, because they are TBTF and will just keep bankrolling each other whilst nuzzling the teat of QE washing away their toxic assets.

So the move will be unprecedented.

Unprecedented to you and I and all the other peons around here. To those behind the move, they just spent a few hundred millions to acquire assets they can now assign book values of billions. Selling into this only makes you weaker in the end game, and selling is what they want you to do because those dollars you are acquiring get more worthless the more bitcoin they have. Who here though has the constitution to hold as they see the price double repeatedly. We are still at the end of the day all hardwired for fiat. As much as anyone pretends they are not.

So the number I have picked is probably not that accurate. The magnitude, and the colossal unbeleivableness of it, is what is important. That's the black swan that nobody sees coming. That 90% of the people in the world will miss 90% of the bitcoin.

I repeat this exercise is about being ready if this happens. About having thought about what you are going to do. Me personally, I don't pretend for a second I can hold tight to everything. I'll sell a little on the run up just like a have every other time, and just like every other time, I will regret the stuff a sold a week earlier for far less. Just like every other time, when the dancing is done I'll reflect about how I used to have soooo many more bitcoin. Just like every other time, I will have made my end game worse.

I won't have sold everything though.

That's the difference between this post and every "talking your book but pretending not to" post on here. Everyone knows I'm long, I'm not telling anyone to go all in or all out I don't think posts on here make the slightest bit of difference, we are way beyond that now. The train has left the station and the driver is still drunk in the station bar. I'm just chatting to people about what I think. Getting more responses and replies from people who have other ideas and using this to shape my future decisions.

I'm already well past caring about whether I *lose everything* because for a long time now that's been impossible. The fact that people are up on here posting "advice" to sell is even more ridiculous to me than the suggestion that btc will be worth over half a million in just over a years time.

For the record, yes that chart does say over  1m in 3 years. It also says 250k the year later. It absolutely terrifies me to think how one might ride that out. Once again the figures aren't right, its the magnitude of the moves you might have to go through that is the message.

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americanpegasus (OP)
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October 04, 2015, 11:27:10 AM
 #5

even the most delusional bull must agree that the bitcoin price can not go to trillions. i assume u meant market cap ?

Yes, fixed.  However, consider that the monetary base of Earth is founded on largely material assets with illiquid money.  Once crypto really ramps up and artificial reality and the internet move into the next generation it would be silly to think all of humanity would encapsulate only about $100 trillion of value. 
 
I am imagining we would see the value of our species rise to at least $1 quadrillion and if bitcoin is 10% of that (reasonable, if not conservative) we are looking at a $100 trillion market cap. 
 
That would be about $4.7 billion (that's billion with a 'b') per bitcoin. 
 
For you Monero lovers out there, if Monero represented 10% of this new market cap of future-Earth (circa 2035) that would be approximately the same.

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October 04, 2015, 01:12:02 PM
 #6

...
I am imagining we would see the value of our species rise to at least $1 quadrillion and if bitcoin is 10% of that ...

"Our species," of course, being American Pegasus, right?
Pegasuses? Pegasi? Pegai?
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October 04, 2015, 01:30:46 PM
 #7

I don't believe in sudden rise because usually it won't be able to sustain itself. Assuming if there is a global economic collapse that pushes fiat paper money to become worthless, a sudden buy out will only benefit speculators that trigger them to increase their trading and margin size. Whereas if you have slow increase, which is basically supported by fundamentals, in this scenario, trader don't have the chance. Price would undergo normal increase as what it should be.

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October 04, 2015, 01:37:30 PM
 #8

a slow but steady year on year growth of at least 10% per year is prefered. but a lot people may find that sort of growth to slow. what goes up fast may come back down fast.
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October 04, 2015, 09:10:27 PM
 #9

a slow but steady year on year growth of at least 10% per year is prefered. but a lot people may find that sort of growth to slow. what goes up fast may come back down fast.

Yes, I also hope that we will see a slow and steady rise. This would be preferable.

 I also think that some bubbles are still necessary and will happen in the near future, 3-5 years. It's hard imaginable that we wouldn't see a strong spike if we would get a surge of let's say 10 million people into the Bitcoin ecosystem in a year or so. Especially since our current user base is quite small, about 1 million users.

So yes, there will be some spikes!
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October 04, 2015, 09:58:15 PM
 #10

a slow but steady year on year growth of at least 10% per year is prefered. but a lot people may find that sort of growth to slow. what goes up fast may come back down fast.

Yes, I also hope that we will see a slow and steady rise. This would be preferable.

 I also think that some bubbles are still necessary and will happen in the near future, 3-5 years. It's hard imaginable that we wouldn't see a strong spike if we would get a surge of let's say 10 million people into the Bitcoin ecosystem in a year or so. Especially since our current user base is quite small, about 1 million users.

So yes, there will be some spikes!

I already hear numbers that crypto userbase is around 10 million.
Which dark hole where the sun never shines do you get that 1 million number from?
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October 04, 2015, 10:47:58 PM
 #11

Yeah, I think "hyperbitcoinization" or whatever is over, and bitcoin will probably succeed through steady price rise over a long period, maybe 50-100 years.

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October 05, 2015, 04:24:37 AM
 #12

even the most delusional bull must agree that the bitcoin price can not go to trillions. i assume u meant market cap ?

Yes, fixed.  However, consider that the monetary base of Earth is founded on largely material assets with illiquid money.  Once crypto really ramps up and artificial reality and the internet move into the next generation it would be silly to think all of humanity would encapsulate only about $100 trillion of value. 
 
I am imagining we would see the value of our species rise to at least $1 quadrillion and if bitcoin is 10% of that (reasonable, if not conservative) we are looking at a $100 trillion market cap. 
 
That would be about $4.7 billion (that's billion with a 'b') per bitcoin. 
 
For you Monero lovers out there, if Monero represented 10% of this new market cap of future-Earth (circa 2035) that would be approximately the same.

Damn, I'm already a billionaire in the future, can I retire already ? :p
Let's already get to that 1K and then 10K and call it a nice success Wink.

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October 05, 2015, 10:07:52 AM
 #13

a slow but steady year on year growth of at least 10% per year is prefered. but a lot people may find that sort of growth to slow. what goes up fast may come back down fast.

Yes, I also hope that we will see a slow and steady rise. This would be preferable.

 I also think that some bubbles are still necessary and will happen in the near future, 3-5 years. It's hard imaginable that we wouldn't see a strong spike if we would get a surge of let's say 10 million people into the Bitcoin ecosystem in a year or so. Especially since our current user base is quite small, about 1 million users.

So yes, there will be some spikes!

I already hear numbers that crypto userbase is around 10 million.
Which dark hole where the sun never shines do you get that 1 million number from?

I don't know mate, 10 million is way too much! Where did you get that number from? I might said to low of the number, but I think also that you went a bit high!
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October 05, 2015, 10:42:10 AM
 #14

a slow but steady year on year growth of at least 10% per year is prefered. but a lot people may find that sort of growth to slow. what goes up fast may come back down fast.

Yes, I also hope that we will see a slow and steady rise. This would be preferable.

 I also think that some bubbles are still necessary and will happen in the near future, 3-5 years. It's hard imaginable that we wouldn't see a strong spike if we would get a surge of let's say 10 million people into the Bitcoin ecosystem in a year or so. Especially since our current user base is quite small, about 1 million users.

So yes, there will be some spikes!

I already hear numbers that crypto userbase is around 10 million.
Which dark hole where the sun never shines do you get that 1 million number from?

I don't know mate, 10 million is way too much! Where did you get that number from? I might said to low of the number, but I think also that you went a bit high!

I got the 10Million from hear say.
Agreed, we're both unable to give an accurate number.
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October 05, 2015, 12:03:54 PM
 #15

a slow but steady year on year growth of at least 10% per year is prefered. but a lot people may find that sort of growth to slow. what goes up fast may come back down fast.

Yes, I also hope that we will see a slow and steady rise. This would be preferable.

 I also think that some bubbles are still necessary and will happen in the near future, 3-5 years. It's hard imaginable that we wouldn't see a strong spike if we would get a surge of let's say 10 million people into the Bitcoin ecosystem in a year or so. Especially since our current user base is quite small, about 1 million users.

So yes, there will be some spikes!

I already hear numbers that crypto userbase is around 10 million.
Which dark hole where the sun never shines do you get that 1 million number from?

I don't know mate, 10 million is way too much! Where did you get that number from? I might said to low of the number, but I think also that you went a bit high!

I got the 10Million from hear say.
Agreed, we're both unable to give an accurate number.


That's exactly where I got the 1 million number as well. And when I got a chance to read about it, even this 1 million was quite high for majority.

Yes I agree, this is completely irrelevant and we can never be able to tell exactly how many users are. All we can do is play a guessing game. I do hope you are right and I was wrong though, 10 million users would be awesome!
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