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Author Topic: If i sell coins for cash, am i required to report transactions to the IRS?  (Read 1420 times)
don giovanni (OP)
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October 24, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
 #1


 I was wondering if i were to liquidate some of my coins by having buyers deposit cash into a bank account (as others do on here) would i have to report large transactions? This is what i found on the matter from the IRS website, but its not clear whether selling bitcoins falls under "exchange of cash for other cash" or if bitcoins includes "the coins and currency of the United States and a foreign country" or if i would be considered a business by selling large volumes of coin. Also would i have to report this as income? These coins are largely for services rendered, so i have no paper for them to audit.


Quote

Workbook on Reporting Cash Payments of Over $10,000

   
Introduction


The law requires that trades and businesses report cash payments of more than $10,000 to the federal government by filing IRS/FinCEN Form 8300, Report of Cash Payments Over $10,000 Received in a Trade or Business (See Exhibit 1, Form 8300).
Transactions that require Form 8300 include, but are not limited to:

    Escrow arrangement contributions
    Pre-existing debt payments
    Negotiable instrument purchases
    Reimbursement of expenses
    Making or repaying a loan
    Sale of goods/services
    Sale of real property
    Sale of intangible property
    Rental of real or personal property
    Exchange of cash for other cash
    Custodial trust contributions

The information contained in the form assists law enforcement in its anti-money laundering efforts. When businesses comply with the reporting laws they provide authorities with an audit trail to stop tax evasion, drug dealing, terrorist financing and other criminal activities.

Type of Payments to Report

Trades and businesses must report cash payments received, if all of the following criteria are met:

    The amount of cash is more than $10,000.
    The business receives the cash as:
        One lump sum of more than $10,000 or
        Installment payments that cause the total cash received within one year of the initial payment to total more than $10,000 or
        Previously unreported payments that cause the total cash received within a 12-month period to total more than $10,000.
    The establishment receives the cash in the ordinary course of a trade or business.
    The same agent or buyer provides the cash.
    The business receives the cash in a single transaction or in related transactions.

Cash Includes

Cash includes the coins and currency of the United States and a foreign country.
Cash may also include cashier’s checks, bank drafts, traveler’s checks, and money orders with a face value of $10,000 or less, if the business receives the instrument in:

    A designated reporting transaction, as defined below, or
    Any transaction in which the business knows the customer is trying to avoid reporting of the transaction on Form 8300.


A designated reporting transaction is the retail sale of any of the following:

    A consumer durable, such as an automobile, boat, or property other than land or buildings that:
        Is suitable for personal use.
        Can reasonably be expected to last at least one year under ordinary use
        Has sales price of more than $10,000.
        Can be seen or touched (tangible property).
    A collectible (a work of art, rug, antique, metal, gem, stamp or coin).
    Travel or entertainment, if the total sales price of all items sold for the same trip or entertainment event in one transaction or related transactions is more than $10,000. The total sales price of all items sold for a trip or entertainment event, includes the sales price of items such as airfare, hotel rooms and admission tickets.


Cash does not include personal checks drawn on the account of the writer.Cash does not include a cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check or money order with a face value of more than $10,000. When a customer uses currency of more than $10,000 to purchase a monetary instrument, the financial institution issuing the cashier’s check, bank draft, traveler’s check or money order is required to report the transaction by filing FinCEN Form 104, Currency Transaction Report.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Workbook-on-Reporting-Cash-Payments-of-Over-$10,000#penalties
Gavin Andresen
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October 24, 2012, 10:13:39 PM
 #2

If you receive income in any form, and your income-translated-into-dollars is above whatever the "must file" amount currently is, then yes, you must report it on your income taxes at the end of the year.

Doesn't matter if your income is in the form of dollars or euros or bitcoins or diamonds.

And I'm pretty sure Fincen would say that if you're receiving more than $10,000 worth of bitcoins from somebody then they want to know about it, just like they want to know if you're getting more than $10,000 worth of diamonds from somebody.  See the fincen.gov for the mind-numbing details.

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PatMan
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October 24, 2012, 11:17:44 PM
 #3

Why anyone would report anything they do to the IRS is beyond me - they're an illegal outfit themselves aren't they? I certainly wouldn't. But then I don't live in the US...... Grin

IRS, DHS, CIA, FBI, NDAA etc, etc etc........so many criminal organizations with fancy initials you got over there.....

Peace.

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
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ryann
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October 25, 2012, 12:14:34 AM
 #4

Why anyone would report anything they do to the IRS is beyond me - they're an illegal outfit themselves aren't they? I certainly wouldn't. But then I don't live in the US...... Grin

IRS, DHS, CIA, FBI, NDAA etc, etc etc........so many criminal organizations with fancy initials you got over there.....

Peace.

Many people havent reported to the IRS for the same reason as you said. MAny of them end up in jail because they dont pay.
nobbynobbynoob
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October 25, 2012, 12:48:26 AM
 #5

Why anyone would report anything they do to the IRS is beyond me - they're an illegal outfit themselves aren't they? I certainly wouldn't. But then I don't live in the US...... Grin

IRS, DHS, CIA, FBI, NDAA etc, etc etc........so many criminal organizations with fancy initials you got over there.....

Peace.

Totally agree but realistically if you're serious about dodging the IRS, you simply can't be funnelling any amount of funds through US banks anyway. You've got to find an other way to keep the loot off the books.

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paraipan
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October 25, 2012, 01:11:03 AM
 #6

Why anyone would report anything they do to the IRS is beyond me - they're an illegal outfit themselves aren't they? I certainly wouldn't. But then I don't live in the US...... Grin

IRS, DHS, CIA, FBI, NDAA etc, etc etc........so many criminal organizations with fancy initials you got over there.....

Peace.

Many people havent reported to the IRS for the same reason as you said. MAny of them end up in jail because they dont pay.

You're not required by any law to pay income taxes.

You don't have to pay Federal Income Tax?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r37Fm7paVjs

Former IRS Agent Joe Banister and Ron Paul On CNBC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PvaNWrkFeQ

White House Ignores Income Tax Question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmq538bzpls

U.S Income Tax is a fraud(Tom Cryer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4nb62cAM3Q

Federal Income Tax - Why you should not pay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSW_M5_jPkA

Wesley Snipes on His Jail Sentence for Tax Evasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXHO1k8RrxM

Sherry Peel Jackson Ex IRS Agent on Income Tax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1jqLximBZI

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don giovanni (OP)
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October 25, 2012, 01:40:19 AM
 #7

Hi thanks for the response, my question wasnt so much about dodging income taxes as it was about having to report $10k+ transaction if you're just a guy selling his coins for cash, but both questions were answered and it seems in the best interest to assume it applies to you and do what the government wants.
DannyHamilton
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October 25, 2012, 01:41:02 AM
 #8

The main thing you need to realize is that you've come to the wrong place for reliable legal advice regarding your tax responsibilities.  You are going to get a lot of different opinions here, and if you look around long enough you'll eventually find someone who will tell you whatever it is you are hoping to hear.  If you want to understand what your actual tax liability is, you really need to talk to a local tax professional who has a reputation for working with uncommon tax situations.
odolvlobo
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October 25, 2012, 03:59:17 AM
 #9

I think it would qualify as "Sale of intangible property". Anyway, like DannyHamilton wrote, you should ask a professional.

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PatMan
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October 25, 2012, 12:10:16 PM
 #10

Why anyone would report anything they do to the IRS is beyond me - they're an illegal outfit themselves aren't they? I certainly wouldn't. But then I don't live in the US...... Grin

IRS, DHS, CIA, FBI, NDAA etc, etc etc........so many criminal organizations with fancy initials you got over there.....

Peace.

Many people havent reported to the IRS for the same reason as you said. MAny of them end up in jail because they dont pay.

You're not required by any law to pay income taxes.

You don't have to pay Federal Income Tax?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r37Fm7paVjs

Former IRS Agent Joe Banister and Ron Paul On CNBC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PvaNWrkFeQ

White House Ignores Income Tax Question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmq538bzpls

U.S Income Tax is a fraud(Tom Cryer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4nb62cAM3Q

Federal Income Tax - Why you should not pay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSW_M5_jPkA

Wesley Snipes on His Jail Sentence for Tax Evasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXHO1k8RrxM

Sherry Peel Jackson Ex IRS Agent on Income Tax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1jqLximBZI

You said it my man!

There's a wealth of info about this on the webz - just gotta pluck it out the airwavez.

But yeah, many anwers are available, depending on what you want to hear or be told.

Peace.

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
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DeathAndTaxes
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October 25, 2012, 01:21:52 PM
 #11

You're not required by any law to pay income taxes.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/1

Quote
There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with the following table:

paraipan
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October 25, 2012, 02:34:23 PM
 #12

You're not required by any law to pay income taxes.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/1

Quote
There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with the following table:



I've reached a point where I respect every word you say in this community, but here you take something for granted and not even question it's legality:

Direct Taxes Under the Constitution: A Review of the Precedents
http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/ArtWeb/2B34C7FBDA41D9DA8525730800067017?OpenDocument

Let's not forget the "Sixteenth Amendment" was ratified on February 3, 1913, and is the only thing supporting a direct tax on Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

A few months later Federal Reserve Act was enacted, December 23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

The rest is history, and here we are arguing about direct taxation and doing the job easier for the "government" and declare our income voluntarily. Of course they would want to know about your every move, but in the end it depends on every person to discern and act accordingly to their values and beliefs.

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ciroc
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October 25, 2012, 04:36:37 PM
 #13

The IRS is the only federal organization in which your are guilty until proven innocent.  The burden of proof falls upon you.
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Gerald Davis


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October 25, 2012, 04:51:21 PM
Last edit: October 25, 2012, 06:17:54 PM by DeathAndTaxes
 #14

You're not required by any law to pay income taxes.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/1

Quote
There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with the following table:



I've reached a point where I respect every word you say in this community, but here you take something for granted and not even question it's legality

That wasn't the claim. Your statement was "you are not required by any law...".  I showed you the law. Wink

Now you can argue the law is unconstitutional and there is some merit to that argument but that is different statement than there not being a law.  Then again I thought the mandate in the HCR law was unconstitutional and the Supreme Court disagreed with me (no they didn't ask my opinion).  Ultimately in our system of government, Congress can do whatever it wants as long as the SCOTUS gives it the constitutional rubber stamp.  At least so far all attempts to avoid, evade, or opt of the income tax system using arguments like the above have failed.  Collectively "tax deniers" have had hundreds of millions of dollars seized with little to show for it.

Your only other remedy is revolution and at that point the constitutionality of the law is kinda a moot point wouldn't you agree?

BTW: I oppose the income tax system but I also understand it exists and the penalties for non-compliance can be severe.  
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October 25, 2012, 05:33:47 PM
 #15

The IRS is the only federal organization in which your are guilty until proven innocent.  The burden of proof falls upon you.

The immigration department (Citizenship and Immigration) operates this way too.

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October 25, 2012, 06:06:41 PM
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Funny.  If the IRS is getting involved, it demonstrates how successful bitcoin has become.
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October 26, 2012, 12:01:45 AM
 #17

You're not required by any law to pay income taxes.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/1

Quote
There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with the following table:



I've reached a point where I respect every word you say in this community, but here you take something for granted and not even question it's legality

That wasn't the claim. Your statement was "you are not required by any law...".  I showed you the law. Wink

Now you can argue the law is unconstitutional and there is some merit to that argument but that is different statement than there not being a law.  Then again I thought the mandate in the HCR law was unconstitutional and the Supreme Court disagreed with me (no they didn't ask my opinion).  Ultimately in our system of government, Congress can do whatever it wants as long as the SCOTUS gives it the constitutional rubber stamp.  At least so far all attempts to avoid, evade, or opt of the income tax system using arguments like the above have failed.  Collectively "tax deniers" have had hundreds of millions of dollars seized with little to show for it.

Your only other remedy is revolution and at that point the constitutionality of the law is kinda a moot point wouldn't you agree?

BTW: I oppose the income tax system but I also understand it exists and the penalties for non-compliance can be severe.  

You got point, so there is a law. Now people that comply with it is another issue altogether.

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