STOP SUPPORTING CRIMINALS AND SCAMMERS

[saturn643]

The impression is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise "dark market activities."  There is not much real world advantage to using bitcoin over fiat other than engaging in fast, secret, or otherwise "shady dealings."  Governments could remedy the shady transactions by issuing their own cryptocurrency to allow for the exchange of digital goods and to allow for smart contract capabilities among the digitized public.  And, I believe that will be the direction the technology will take.

fiat actually has quite the advantage over Bitcoin in fast, secret, and shady dealings. Once you hand over cash, the transaction is confirmed and done. No need to wait. Much much faster than waiting 10 minutes for a confirmation. It is quite secret to hand over cash. There is virtually no way to track cash transactions. Bitcoin, every single transaction is publicly available, and anyone can see that a transaction between two addresses occurred. With fiat, you would never know that any such transaction happened with cash.

[yolalanda]

... Bitcoin, every single transaction is publicly available, and anyone can see that a transaction between two addresses occurred. ...

And, if any mischief's afoot, the addresses get nailed and go to JAIL!
Mixers, exchanges, BTC casinos, localbitcoin, etc., etc.? Shit ain't real, bro! Shit jus' drop 'fo mah bombass blockchain skillz!
And since no one stuffs cash into the intertubes, cash transactions, by their very nature, happen face-to-face. Establishing identity is not an issue.
Bitcoin? not so much.

[cjmoles]

The impression is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise "dark market activities."  There is not much real world advantage to using bitcoin over fiat other than engaging in fast, secret, or otherwise "shady dealings."  Governments could remedy the shady transactions by issuing their own cryptocurrency to allow for the exchange of digital goods and to allow for smart contract capabilities among the digitized public.  And, I believe that will be the direction the technology will take.

fiat actually has quite the advantage over Bitcoin in fast, secret, and shady dealings. Once you hand over cash, the transaction is confirmed and done. No need to wait. Much much faster than waiting 10 minutes for a confirmation. It is quite secret to hand over cash. There is virtually no way to track cash transactions. Bitcoin, every single transaction is publicly available, and anyone can see that a transaction between two addresses occurred. With fiat, you would never know that any such transaction happened with cash.

When I hand over my fiat, it is far from secret because I am there with my firearm and will blast on the fool who tries to rob me.  That's the difference, and that's why thieves like bitcoin....they can steal without the risk of repercussion or prosecution.

[saturn643]

And since no one stuffs cash into the intertubes, cash transactions, by their very nature, happen face-to-face. Establishing identity is not an issue.
Bitcoin? not so much.

Sure, the two people in the transaction will know who are in the transaction, but outsiders will not. Outsiders will not know who was in the transaction. While with Bitcoin, anyone can know everything about the transaction, and with some sleuthing, they can even figure out the identities of the owners of the addresses. For example, I can easily lookup an address and see every single transaction to and from it. I can know exactly when a transaction of a certain amount was sent and I can know what addresses were involved, and I may be able to link those transaction to identities. With cash, I cannot easily know when someone last exchanged some money for something else and I cannot easily know who they did it with, short of going to the person and asking them.

When I hand over my fiat, it is far from secret because I am there with my firearm and will blast on the fool who tries to rob me.  That's the difference, and that's why thieves like bitcoin....they can steal without the risk of repercussion or prosecution.

As I explained above, it is still secret. Of course, yes, you are right that that person will probably not rob you if they know you have a firearm and will probably shoot them if they do steal from you. However, a lot of fiat is also stolen through digital means, such as credit card fraud. That stuff is still pretty damn hard to trace, more so than bitcoin because those transactions are not public, and there is no identifier for where the money is going to.

[cjmoles]

And since no one stuffs cash into the intertubes, cash transactions, by their very nature, happen face-to-face. Establishing identity is not an issue.
Bitcoin? not so much.

Sure, the two people in the transaction will know who are in the transaction, but outsiders will not. Outsiders will not know who was in the transaction. While with Bitcoin, anyone can know everything about the transaction, and with some sleuthing, they can even figure out the identities of the owners of the addresses. For example, I can easily lookup an address and see every single transaction to and from it. I can know exactly when a transaction of a certain amount was sent and I can know what addresses were involved, and I may be able to link those transaction to identities. With cash, I cannot easily know when someone last exchanged some money for something else and I cannot easily know who they did it with, short of going to the person and asking them.

When I hand over my fiat, it is far from secret because I am there with my firearm and will blast on the fool who tries to rob me.  That's the difference, and that's why thieves like bitcoin....they can steal without the risk of repercussion or prosecution.

As I explained above, it is still secret. Of course, yes, you are right that that person will probably not rob you if they know you have a firearm and will probably shoot them if they do steal from you. However, a lot of fiat is also stolen through digital means, such as credit card fraud. That stuff is still pretty damn hard to trace, more so than bitcoin because those transactions are not public, and there is no identifier for where the money is going to.

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

[saturn643]

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

Yes, most of that is true. There are ways to identify who an address belongs to, but it is very difficult.

Although your original statement that the majority of transaction is for illegal stuff, I still say that is false. You can't know for sure. Actually, I'm fairly certain a large percentage of those transactions are actually for gambling.

[xhomerx10]

There is absolute no protection against anything related to crypto to not be a scam or a hoax.
Its like your wallet falling out of your pocket on the street, you should consider yourself lucky if one actually returns the wallet with the money in it.
But i promise you 98% of them take the money and throw away the emptied wallet.

 According to a Readers Digest commissioned study the odds of getting your lost wallet and money returned are 90:102
ie. 47% of the "lost" wallets were returned to their owners.

You can view article here - http://www.rd.com/culture/most-honest-cities-lost-wallet-test/

 I have a cool story about my wife's purse but she would kill me if I told it.  Suffice it to say we got it back with all the money (about $600USD), credit cards, passports, iphone and digital camera.  The person who returned it didn't even leave a name or contact number.

 

[dothebeats]

The impression is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise "dark market activities."  There is not much real world advantage to using bitcoin over fiat other than engaging in fast, secret, or otherwise "shady dealings."  Governments could remedy the shady transactions by issuing their own cryptocurrency to allow for the exchange of digital goods and to allow for smart contract capabilities among the digitized public.  And, I believe that will be the direction the technology will take.

fiat actually has quite the advantage over Bitcoin in fast, secret, and shady dealings. Once you hand over cash, the transaction is confirmed and done. No need to wait. Much much faster than waiting 10 minutes for a confirmation. It is quite secret to hand over cash. There is virtually no way to track cash transactions. Bitcoin, every single transaction is publicly available, and anyone can see that a transaction between two addresses occurred. With fiat, you would never know that any such transaction happened with cash.

But addresses won't do much of identification unless a person knows how much was dealt. He could search for the amount in the block chain and it could return some data pointing to the amount in the dealings, but that alone wouldn't do much in terms of identification.

[Pattart]

But addresses won't do much of identification unless a person knows how much was dealt. He could search for the amount in the block chain and it could return some data pointing to the amount in the dealings, but that alone wouldn't do much in terms of identification.

What if someone had posted the bitcoin address somewhere like this forum? Then they know what account it belongs to, and they can try to dox it through whatever means people figure out how to dox people.

[yolalanda]

And since no one stuffs cash into the intertubes, cash transactions, by their very nature, happen face-to-face. Establishing identity is not an issue.
Bitcoin? not so much.

Sure, the two people in the transaction will know who are in the transaction, but outsiders will not. Outsiders will not know who was in the transaction. While with Bitcoin, anyone can know everything about the transaction, and with some sleuthing, they can even figure out the identities of the owners of the addresses. -snip-

In that case, mind telling me who has the Gox coins? Who has TF's coins? Who has ...well, you point to any major bitcoin theft/hack and tell me who got the coins. I mean, if your blockchain mojo is strong, i'm sure the millions at stake are worth 'some sleuthing,' no?
If I double dog dare you?

[saturn643]

In that case, mind telling me who has the Gox coins? Who has TF's coins? Who has ...well, you point to any major bitcoin theft/hack and tell me who got the coins. I mean, if your blockchain mojo is strong, i'm sure the millions at stake are worth 'some sleuthing,' no?
If I double dog dare you?

Gox: Mark Karpeles or whatever law enforcement seized his coins
TF: TF does, duh. Or he spent them. Doesn't really matter, but the guy that stole/scammed was TF. Here is his dox

[yolalanda]

In that case, mind telling me who has the Gox coins? Who has TF's coins? Who has ...well, you point to any major bitcoin theft/hack and tell me who got the coins. I mean, if your blockchain mojo is strong, i'm sure the millions at stake are worth 'some sleuthing,' no?
If I double dog dare you?

Gox: Mark Karpeles or whatever law enforcement seized his coins

Law enforcement?  Huh?  It's Sat. night, I'll assume you're drunk.

TF: TF does, duh. Or he spent them. Doesn't really matter, but the guy that stole/scammed was TF. Here is his dox

But you can track your coins to whoever has them now because blockchain and a little sleuthing. right?  Many people lost shitloads of money with TF, they'll give you the addys they paid from, why not make a quick fortune by figuring out who has them now?

TL;DR: No coins, from any major BTC scam/theft/hack were ever recovered by analyzing 'blockchain & some sleuthing.'

[saturn643]

In that case, mind telling me who has the Gox coins? Who has TF's coins? Who has ...well, you point to any major bitcoin theft/hack and tell me who got the coins. I mean, if your blockchain mojo is strong, i'm sure the millions at stake are worth 'some sleuthing,' no?
If I double dog dare you?

Gox: Mark Karpeles or whatever law enforcement seized his coins

Law enforcement?  Huh?  It's Sat. night, I'll assume you're drunk.

TF: TF does, duh. Or he spent them. Doesn't really matter, but the guy that stole/scammed was TF. Here is his dox

But you can track your coins to whoever has them now because blockchain and a little sleuthing. right?  Many people lost shitloads of money with TF, they'll give you the addys they paid from, why not make a quick fortune by figuring out who has them now?

TL;DR: No coins, from any major BTC scam/theft/hack were ever recovered by analyzing 'blockchain & some sleuthing.'

Never said that analyzing the blockchain and getting identities would ever recover anyone's Bitcoin. And why would anyone selling goods or services to TF return the coins that TF gave them to his victims? That means a loss for them and no harm done to TF, which is entirely pointless.

[Lethn]

tldr:
Op tries moneypot, discovers game is rigged after losing $25
OP not happy

Nice find, I always thought something was very suspicious when these annoying newbies show up making demands of everybody.

[cjmoles]

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

Yes, most of that is true. There are ways to identify who an address belongs to, but it is very difficult.

Although your original statement that the majority of transaction is for illegal stuff, I still say that is false. You can't know for sure. Actually, I'm fairly certain a large percentage of those transactions are actually for gambling.

I think I said that the "IMPRESSION is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise 'dark market activities'."  I mean, why use bitcoin unless one is buying porn, gambling, avoiding taxes, laundering money, funding terrorists, dealing drugs, or initiating a scam?  That's its "table image" in pokerspeak.  I'm not saying that it doesn't have legitimate uses; I AM saying that it attracts people whom engage in those type of activities.  The hard question is:  How do we, as a community, enforce its tender?  On the streets we beat the fool that robs our homies and that acts as a deterrent.....how do we catch the keyboard pecker who hides behind an avatar to rob our people?

[bitbollo]

it's fiat money more and more and more in illegal traffics.
it's accepted every where by every one, you can spend in a lot of way, also you can deposit and move legal, without giving problem to anyone...
do you have any idea how many money get the criminals groups in the world?
TONS of cash, the entire btc capitalization can cover only a small part of yearly gross income!
and a small "classic" criminal, sometimes doesn't have the knowledge to use safely btc, and prefer cash without doubt...
only some "elite" can use btc... but for very big quantities of money...

[subSTRATA]

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

Yes, most of that is true. There are ways to identify who an address belongs to, but it is very difficult.

Although your original statement that the majority of transaction is for illegal stuff, I still say that is false. You can't know for sure. Actually, I'm fairly certain a large percentage of those transactions are actually for gambling.

I think I said that the "IMPRESSION is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise 'dark market activities'."  I mean, why use bitcoin unless one is buying porn, gambling, avoiding taxes, laundering money, funding terrorists, dealing drugs, or initiating a scam?  That's its "table image" in pokerspeak.  I'm not saying that it doesn't have legitimate uses; I AM saying that it attracts people whom engage in those type of activities.  The hard question is:  How do we, as a community, enforce its tender?  On the streets we beat the fool that robs our homies and that acts as a deterrent.....how do we catch the keyboard pecker who hides behind an avatar to rob our people?

or we could, you know, use our brains and not get scammed in the first place.

[cjmoles]

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

Yes, most of that is true. There are ways to identify who an address belongs to, but it is very difficult.

Although your original statement that the majority of transaction is for illegal stuff, I still say that is false. You can't know for sure. Actually, I'm fairly certain a large percentage of those transactions are actually for gambling.

I think I said that the "IMPRESSION is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise 'dark market activities'."  I mean, why use bitcoin unless one is buying porn, gambling, avoiding taxes, laundering money, funding terrorists, dealing drugs, or initiating a scam?  That's its "table image" in pokerspeak.  I'm not saying that it doesn't have legitimate uses; I AM saying that it attracts people whom engage in those type of activities.  The hard question is:  How do we, as a community, enforce its tender?  On the streets we beat the fool that robs our homies and that acts as a deterrent.....how do we catch the keyboard pecker who hides behind an avatar to rob our people?

or we could, you know, use our brains and not get scammed in the first place.

I agree....survival of the fittest!  Gullible, feeble minded, uneducated, common folk like grandma should not use bitcoin because they may get ripped off; only the shrewd,  sharp witted, educated, elite should use the technology.  I mean....why should we care if grandma gets ripped off?  It's not OUR money, right?

As much as I agree with it, that is the exact mentality that holds the technology down.  I'm just saying that for bitcoin to become more relevant, it needs to become adopted by a greater crossing section of the population, but that's not what's happening; it's being adopted by a more specialized demographic.  Currency gets its value off the backs of the average laborer and we should be able to put our brilliant minds together to come up with a solution that would include them in the game.  Finding a solution that could protect the average person would benefit us all.

[Nextgen]

This site has 544,647 members. it can't possibly ensure that every one of them is not a scammer.

Are you sure ? i would doubt that .... probably you meant to say accounts or else you are certainly wrong as there are no more than 100k users on this forum.

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

Yes, most of that is true. There are ways to identify who an address belongs to, but it is very difficult.

it is difficult for users on this forum ..it takes 5 minutes for the NSA or CIA to dox it...and you can be caught before dinner

[saturn643]

I think I said that the "IMPRESSION is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise 'dark market activities'."  I mean, why use bitcoin unless one is buying porn, gambling, avoiding taxes, laundering money, funding terrorists, dealing drugs, or initiating a scam?  That's its "table image" in pokerspeak.  I'm not saying that it doesn't have legitimate uses; I AM saying that it attracts people whom engage in those type of activities.  The hard question is:  How do we, as a community, enforce its tender?  On the streets we beat the fool that robs our homies and that acts as a deterrent.....how do we catch the keyboard pecker who hides behind an avatar to rob our people?

That is true, but you forgot about credit card fraud and identity theft. That is also a huge problem with fiat and it costs people millions of dollars a year. But it hasn't and can't be stopped. The only thing people can do is to be careful and not give away their credit card info away so that it gets stolen. Likewise, people with Bitcoin shouldn't give away Bitcoin and get scammed. Their is nothing to stop that, it is going to be a fact of using Bitcoin. What we need to change is the impression. Make Bitcoin seem just like fiat, used as actual money, not magical internet money used for nefarious purposes.