What's wrong with XT?

[Adrian-x]

Bitcoin as a payment network is a futile endeavor.  It's better as a store of value.

I'm pretty sure the $1G invested in that space that needs bitcoin as a payment system disagree with you.

Just being curious, why do you cheers for decentralized marketplace if bitcoin can't be used as a payment system?

Not the idea of a payment system with 'visa' scalability. 

edit:  BTC can, with the help of other platforms and doing off chain transactions.

So bitcoin can with the help of trusted third party?

If you want it to scale to 'Visa' like proportions, yes.  Or go XT, which the majority doesn't want.

And remember, it's you who want it to scale right now.  I'm fine with it evolving slowly.

Going XT allows the system to grow organically BTW. Blocks won't be filled out overnight you know? The limit is still only an anti spam limit.

I like BTC fine as it is, thanks.  From nothing to worth over 200 per coin?  That's not bad.  Not bad at all. 

Just let it evolve.  No need to rush things.

I'm not convinced you understand how evolution work's or how bitcoin evolved to be worth $200+.

There are lots of hard forks in that history. Adopting one that allows more users to join the network is part of that natural evolution. If you want to see price increase with market adoption you're going to need bigger blocks.

[iCEBREAKER]

Going XT allows the system to grow organically BTW. Blocks won't be filled out overnight you know? The limit is still only an anti spam limit.

[tokeweed]

Bitcoin as a payment network is a futile endeavor.  It's better as a store of value.

I'm pretty sure the $1G invested in that space that needs bitcoin as a payment system disagree with you.

Just being curious, why do you cheers for decentralized marketplace if bitcoin can't be used as a payment system?

Not the idea of a payment system with 'visa' scalability. 

edit:  BTC can, with the help of other platforms and doing off chain transactions.

So bitcoin can with the help of trusted third party?

If you want it to scale to 'Visa' like proportions, yes.  Or go XT, which the majority doesn't want.

And remember, it's you who want it to scale right now.  I'm fine with it evolving slowly.

Going XT allows the system to grow organically BTW. Blocks won't be filled out overnight you know? The limit is still only an anti spam limit.

I like BTC fine as it is, thanks.  From nothing to worth over 200 per coin?  That's not bad.  Not bad at all. 

Just let it evolve.  No need to rush things.

I'm not convinced you understand how evolution work's or how bitcoin evolved to be worth $200+.

There are lots of hard forks in that history.

Not like Gavincoin.  There's a reason why a good majority didn't like it.

 

Adopting one that allows more users to join the network is part of that natural evolution. If you want to see price increase with market adoption you're going to need bigger blocks.

No need to rush.  Bitcoin is fine.  Price is fine.  Just let the Gavincoin issue go and let's move on.

[Adrian-x]

You know theymos doesn't  tolerate posts like the above on his other moderate forums.
And he closed thread on this one that touch on the heart of the issues.

Just because you're allowed post in ignorant bliss does not mean nobody cares.

Some of us are actually invested in the success of Bitcoin as originally designed.

You're lucky you can come along for the ride.

[tokeweed]

Oh don't be butthurt.  Everything is fine man.  Let's all be happy we're still here, living in a time of peace and prosperity.

As for

You're lucky you can come along for the ride.

No, Bitcoin is lucky that there are a lot of appreciative people willing to come along for the ride.  Without them, there will be no adoption that you're all hoping for.

[tokeweed]

Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us? 

[knight22]

Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us?  

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

[iCEBREAKER]

Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us?  

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

The only people "leading a war" are you Gavinista insurgents.

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Team Gavincoin defected from the consensus of Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority by openly declaring their hostile technical and political intentions.

The last things we want are "reconciliation and concensus" with such sworn enemies.

They will come crawling back, having surrendered unconditionally, or Team Core will continue to exist without them and be better for their absence.

Enjoy your shadowban.   

[knight22]

Shit.  See how Gavincoin is dividing us?  

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

The only people "leading a war" are you Gavinista insurgents.

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Team Gavincoin defected from the consensus of Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority by openly declaring their hostile technical and political intentions.

The last things we want are "reconciliation and concensus" with such sworn enemies.

They will come crawling back, having surrendered unconditionally, or Team Core will continue to exist without them and be better for their absence.

Enjoy your shadowban.   

Then enjoy your war and  your full time hyperventilation 

[jwinterm]

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

...

You're really cherry picking from that post by Rosenfeld. Here is a more complete quote of his post (with portions that you probably don't agree with bolded):

Given that compromise failed, Gavin and Mike went ahead to push Bitcoin-XT, and now the real issue isn't about technology, it's about the philosophy of Bitcoin evolution. To me, Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos. Whereas Bitcoin Core represents a frigid approach, where no technology improvement will ever be made because consensus can't be reached, and where we can't do anything about the fact that we can't do anything, because of the delegitimization of attempts to change the status quo by forking and letting the best currency win (and make no mistakes, there will be many necessary technology improvements down the road; the block size limit pales in comparison).
Both choices are bad.
I had plans once to write a paper about the game-theoretic aspects of changing the Bitcoin protocol, the contingencies in case of a fork, and how the mere threat of a fork can create a Schelling point which would prevent it from happening. I regret never getting around to it, because it might have been illuminating in the current debate. (For that matter, the other paper I had plans for writing was about transaction fees and how they relate to things like a block size limit; I regret that too, but again the block size is no longer the real issue).
But anyway, I do strongly believe that the possibility of forking Bitcoin - even if at first it has no consensus - is vital to Bitcoin's health, growth and survival. It's the glue that holds everything together and makes sure the Bitcoin economy has a say in case something goes wrong with the development. Ideally a contentious fork would forever remain a theoretical possibility - but if it is possible it means it can happen, and that's what we're seeing right now. Rejecting a fork on the grounds that it's a fork is wrong.
Of course, there are reasons to reject Bitcoin-XT on the grounds that its timing and method are wrong. The objection to the technical change was too strong to just gloss over it. We're definitely not anywhere near the point where Pieter, Greg or Wladimir can be conceivably considered rogue and we should break away from them. Mike and Gavin have, quite arrogantly I would say, assumed that this is just like any other software change and that virtually everyone will just automatically follow them, where the reality is far from it. They didn't properly consider the consequences of making this move without enough support. (They might reply that they have been fighting for this for a long time and exhausted all other options, but I don't accept this - they made many attempts at persuasion, but not enough at compromise).
So here we are, having to choose between two bad alternatives. The mere act of choosing commits, in my opinion, the logical fallacy of privileging the hypothesis. There are millions of possible approaches, and "someone" out there restricted them to just 2. Most of the decision process (culling from millions to 2) was made for me and I'm left rubber-stamping one of the choices that remain. (See also http://lesswrong.com/lw/mi/stop_voting_for_nincompoops/).
But hey, even a noisy bit contains some information, and the question was asked, so...
Given the choice between short-term sticking with 1MB or going all the way to 8MB, I am in favor of going to 8MB.
Given the choice between sticking with Bitcoin Core or switching to Bitcoin-XT, I am in slight favor of sticking with Bitcoin Core, but that could change any time.

You make it out like he is gung-ho "team core", as you like to put it, but at the end he says he is only "in slight favor" of core over xt and that his preference could change at any time.

[iCEBREAKER]

Disagreeing is a normal thing. Alienate one side with censorship is the only reason why people are now leading a war. Calling XT "Gavincoin" is nothing to help reconciliation and concensus.

The only people "leading a war" are you Gavinista insurgents.

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Team Gavincoin defected from the consensus of Bitcoin's socioeconomic majority by openly declaring their hostile technical and political intentions.

The last things we want are "reconciliation and concensus" with such sworn enemies.

They will come crawling back, having surrendered unconditionally, or Team Core will continue to exist without them and be better for their absence.

Enjoy your shadowban.   

Then enjoy your war and  your full time hyperventilation 

The quote from Meni makes it perfectly clear the failed XT putsch was your war.  La Serenissima gave zero fucks about XTurds hilariously, ineffectually headbutting Her outer walls.

1 of the last 1000 blocks are (claimed to be) XT/101.  It's dead, Jim!  Please move on from the initial 'denial' stage of your grieving process.

As for "full time hyperventilation," have you seen the off-the-chart buttrage at /r/bitcoinxt lately?

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3omnaq/trolls_are_on_notice_courtesy_xpost_from_rbitcoin/

Theymos has been VERY CLEAR that is EXACTLY what he's doing for the purposes of destroying discussion. If you back his dictatorship you are not a 'friend', you are PART OF THE PROBLEM!

The dictatorship and attempts to subvert/destroy bitcoin will be remembered.

And trolls have been given a FREE REIGN in r/bitcoin for fuckin AGES, while legitimate discussion is censored and people are banned! Wtf do you think you are representing?? Take a good hard look in a mirror.

Such an authoritarian solution. All the censorship and banning and resulting streisanding has made your forum what it is. Clampdowns all day everyday, 'free speech zones', etc, you will never get the /r/bitcoin you want. Discussion will blossom in healthy environments free of such rigid conservative hardline ideological censorship and chilling effects.

You are liars. You are hypocrites. You give me a two week ban and yet don't lift it after two weeks. You manipulate the discusion. You crush any post that doesn't fit your agenda. You are hypocrates who ban me for criticizing a core dev in a thread where half the posts are criticizing mike and gavan and are allowed. How dare you come here and lie to our faces? Who would participate in the farce over there?? Who can believe anything you say??

The bitcoin community has been divided, not by trolls but by thermos and his bullshit agenda and north korean tactics and policies!

"Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"  "North Korean?"









/r/bitcoin is not North Korean dictatorship, ^that^ is North Korean dictatorship.

[Adrian-x]

"Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"  "North Korean?"

/r/bitcoin is not North Korean dictatorship, ^that^ is North Korean dictatorship.

I see what you did, you put the focus on "North Korean?" avoiding the obvious "Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"

Bitcoin is inclusive, we can all use it it's public and open, your central control buddies or circle jerking is not going to make it an exclusive members only reserve chain for bankers or the new elites.  

even petty bitcoin trolls  will be aloud to use it.

You guys are doing a great job pushing away bitcoin newbies keeping your castle safe.

keep it up.

[iCEBREAKER]

"Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"  "North Korean?"

/r/bitcoin is not North Korean dictatorship, ^that^ is North Korean dictatorship.

I see what you did, you put the focus on "North Korean?" avoiding the obvious "Dictatorship?"  "Authoritarian?"

Bitcoin is inclusive, we can all use it it's public and open, your central control buddies or circle jerking is not going to make it an exclusive members only reserve chain for bankers or the new elites.  

even petty bitcoin trolls  will be aloud to use it.

You guys are doing a great job pushing away bitcoin newbies keeping your castle safe.

keep it up.

North Korea sets the standard for (and is certainly not "avoiding") dictatorship and authoritarianism.

Your rationalization of the Gavinistas' offensive exaggerations and hideously loaded terms is noted.

You are confused, and resorting to using fear of social isolation ("members only; pushing away bitcoin newbies") to sell your XT altcoin.

Bitcoin-the-coin-that-costs-$250-each is radically exclusive in that it is (as a design requirement) above the law.

Bitcoin-the-blockchain-based-technology-that-is-FOSS is radically inclusive in that anyone can fork it and/or join a fork if they like.

[Adrian-x]

My bad, we're in the alt coin section. Bitcoin Nodes are Alt's???, and Sidechains are bitcoin!

Oh! wait, All bitcoin nodes that support the protocol are Bitcoin it's you who is towing the party line calling 10% of bitcoin an alt. Which 10% is that?

Bitcoin adoption is needed to grow! turning away users is not in our best interests. I think you need to go back to attacking alts.  

"Bitcoin-the-coin-that-costs-$250-each is radically exclusive" what a joke!  
FYI: my $100 in Bitcoin is equal to 40% of your "radically exclusive" Bitcoin worth only $250.

Where do you think the value comes from? (hint it's not circle jerking) it's new users.

[tokeweed]

I learned a new term today.  "Gavinistas".  Good one, I shall use it one day.

[subwoofer12]

It has probably been moved by the censoring mods. Don't delude yourself.

I posted it here, it wasn't moved. This is theymos' forum, if he wants XT topics posted in the altcoin section I can respect that.

[subwoofer12]

I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me

[muyuu]

It has probably been moved by the censoring mods. Don't delude yourself.

I posted it here, it wasn't moved. This is theymos' forum, if he wants XT topics posted in the altcoin section I can respect that.

You see "knight"22? Don't go around assuming have as little decency as you.

[tokeweed]

I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me

Just be a Gavinista.  No one cares.

[Mikestang]

I was hoping to get a discussion going on what are the disadvantages of XT, but no one has brought anything in specific up.

Please! Someone attempt to persuade me

My biggest problem with XT, and why I would never support it, is it gives all of the decision making powers to two people and two people only, and one of those two can override the other in extreme cases.  There is nothing more centralized than a system where 1 single person controls all aspects of said system.

Source: https://bitcoinxt.software/faq.html#who-is-involved

Decisions are made through agreement between Mike and Gavin, with Mike making the final call if a serious dispute were to arise.