stepkrav (OP)
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 10:42:53 AM |
|
This piece was recently sent to me by “an old radical.” The message is perhaps a bit harsh, but I have to admit, all I can do is grimace and nod in agreement to this thesis… “Bitcoin and state banking systems are born enemies: only one can survive. If you are imagining that they can peacefully coexist, you are fooling yourself.”
I was a radical before most of you Bitcoin users were born. That doesn’t make me any better than you (hopefully I did a few things to make you better than myself), but it does give me a better perspective; time just works that way.
I’ve been watching the recent developments in the Bitcoin markets, and having seen this drama before (too many times), I thought I’d pass along a lesson. This will strike its target in some of you, but others of you are also likely to reject it, because it doesn’t match what you want to be true.
Here’s the lesson: Trying to go ‘legit’ will destroy the Bitcoin market.
For those of you who haven’t turned away, I’ll explain:
There’s nothing really wrong with Bitcoin itself. The developers are doing a nice job of addressing its problems and a heartening number of people have jumped up to create new tools and new services. No problem here.
The problem is that too many people in the Bitcoin market are thinking the old way.
Understand this: Bitcoin is a new thing – it is not compatible with the old financial system.
Bitcoin and state banking systems are born enemies: only one can survive. If you are imagining that they can peacefully coexist, you are fooling yourself.
Bitcoin exposes the fraud that is state banking. If you think that politicians and bankers will calmly allow it to take over a significant percentage of world financial flows, you’re in denial. States will come after Bitcoin, and hard. They have no choice. Their money can only exist if there are no competitors.
Alan Greenspan may have done a lot of bad things, but he is not stupid. And before his adventures at the Fed, he wrote this:
(Under a fiat system), there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation… If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold.
What gold was then, Bitcoin is now… times five.
So, let me try this again: Going legit gives the state a handle to grab you with. ‘Legit’ means registered and regulated, doesn’t it? You have to tell them your name, where you live, and where you put your money, right? It means that they can control you whenever they want to.
There are two big reasons why Bitcoin people are tempted to go ‘legit’:
They want to get mega-rich fast, like Mark Zuckerberg. They have been trained to be obedient and can’t unlearn it. They are compelled to believe that the government is basically good. It must just be one bad politician or one bad law.
#2 is what destroyed e-gold, and it looks like #1 is what killed GLBSE.
Because of GLBSE, Bitcoin is now being regarded as a currency and states will start to regulate it as one. That means that they’ll attack the public exchangers and force everyone possible to comply with their rules.
So… it’s time to man-up, or to crumble.
(Interestingly, there is often a larger percentage of women that “man-up” than men.)
Will you have the guts to do the right thing when the pressure is on? If yes, I applaud and honor you. If not, here are a few cheap excuses to use (after all, who wants to admit conditioning or cowardice):
Without the rule of law, everything would fall apart. Without regulation, criminals would destroy everything. Yes, regulation is coercive, but along with it comes a certain amount of public benefit! I got ripped off, and someone has to fix it! If I can’t sue someone, they can get away with ripping me off! We can’t get people to use Bitcoin unless it’s authorized. We need approval or we will forever remain a tiny market.
A significant number of Bitcoin people will say these things (and others), but the real truth will be that they are scared, or are still hoping to get mega-rich, or just can’t rip the “government is our friend” meme out of their heads. But mostly it will be fear.
We all feel fear of course, but some of us are determined enough to do the right thing, even when we’re afraid.
So, here’s a final tip: If you run into someone who can feel the fear and still do the right thing, don’t let go of them.
O.R. http://www.dgcmagazine.com/the-old-radical-how-bitcoin-is-being-destroyed/sorry if it's been reposted in the forum, didnt find it.
|
|
|
|
hamdi
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 10:57:55 AM |
|
no laws needed, the currency has all rules in it itself.
|
|
|
|
mobile4ever
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 01:04:26 PM |
|
Because of GLBSE, Bitcoin is now being regarded as a currency and states will start to regulate it as one. That means that they’ll attack the public exchangers and force everyone possible to comply with their rules. How will that happen? If you are right this is more incentive to decentralize "public exchangers". Just like Diaspora ( http://diasporaproject.org/) the power will remain in the hands of the people.
|
|
|
|
knight22
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 02:08:24 PM |
|
Fuck the stupid laws, that's all I have to say
|
|
|
|
hashman
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1264
Merit: 1008
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 02:25:44 PM |
|
Great post thanks But actually, bitcoin can exist with old financial system. Don't believe it? Take a look at this here experimental verification: right now they do exist together.
|
|
|
|
nobbynobbynoob
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 02:30:24 PM |
|
But actually, bitcoin can exist with old financial system. Don't believe it? Take a look at this here experimental verification: right now they do exist together.
Of course they do, but right now Bitcoin is nary e'en a flea upon the Banksters' backs. So of course the states and banks don't really see a threat... yet. But what if the global Bitcoin economy - underground or otherwise - takes over more than, say, 1% of total GDP? Won't states and major banks begin to see the potential threat then and maybe attempt to take action? The emphasis lies upon the word "attempt", for such regulatory or hostile actions may very well prove unsuccessful.
|
|
|
|
knight22
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 02:33:27 PM Last edit: October 27, 2012, 02:54:46 PM by knight22 |
|
Bitcoin is international, so good luck for the governments or the banks to stop it.
|
|
|
|
nobbynobbynoob
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 02:34:41 PM |
|
Bitcoin is international, so good luck for the governments or the banks to stop it.
They can always shut down the Internet. ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif)
|
|
|
|
ryann
Member
![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif)
Offline
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 03:22:06 PM |
|
Bitcoin is international, so good luck for the governments or the banks to stop it.
They can always shut down the Internet. ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) Google shut down in China for a few days last year lol.
|
|
|
|
bg002h
Donator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1464
Merit: 1047
I outlived my lifetime membership:)
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 05:16:52 PM |
|
I think the old radical has a very significant point. I wasn't alive at the time, but we all held gold in the form of USD (we meaning the US and many WWII allied nations) because our dollar was backed by gold and many nations currencies were pegged to the dollar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system). Nixon nixed that. Suddenly, a large fraction of the world began an experiment in fiat currency. Fiat unseated gold....right out from under the feet of many sovereign nations. If countries like the UK and France couldn't stop the devaluation of their currencies, why do we think bitcoin will succeed? While it may be technically challenging to completely stop Bitcoin, it probably won't be too hard to make it inconvenient enough that very few people want to use it. If bitcoin does keep growing, there will be a battle....perhaps a bit more literally than one might think...I'm not as hard core as the old radical and I would probably fold quickly. Heck, I might fold while the folding is good....but I'm folding into gold.
|
|
|
|
ArticMine
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 07:53:26 PM |
|
Bitcoin is international, so good luck for the governments or the banks to stop it. Microsoft could easily issue a patch to Windows that would disable all bitcoin related software on computers running Windows. This would shut down a very large portion of the bitcoin nodes and mining hashing power. This is a far greater threat to bitcoin in my opinion than the potential actions of governments or banks.
|
|
|
|
Vitalik Buterin
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 10:28:35 PM |
|
Bitcoin is international, so good luck for the governments or the banks to stop it. Microsoft could easily issue a patch to Windows that would disable all bitcoin related software on computers running Windows. This would shut down a very large portion of the bitcoin nodes and mining hashing power. This is a far greater threat to bitcoin in my opinion than the potential actions of governments or banks. I seriously doubt Windows can even be made to run on the likes of BFL's FPGA and ASICs. And nodes aren't exactly scarce - even if nine tenths of them go down in a day the Bitcoin network is basically fine.
|
Argumentum ad lunam: the fallacy that because Bitcoin's price is rising really fast the currency must be a speculative bubble and/or Ponzi scheme.
|
|
|
FlipPro
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1015
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 10:38:26 PM |
|
no laws needed, the currency has all rules in it itself.
What's with your freakish avatars? First Bin Laden and now Gaddafi? Do we have to put you on a terrorist watch list or something? Freaky to say the least dude... Freaky... ![Huh](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/huh.gif)
|
|
|
|
DanielBTC
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 27, 2012, 11:14:39 PM |
|
Very interesting article. 1) It is what I can see here, speculation, people that don't believe in bitcoin philosophy, people trying to get rich so fast: the root of all evil. Bitcoin is not a 'X dolar ticket'! 2) To never being destroyed what we need is: derivatives, bitcoin index, future bitcoin market, loan of inexistent bitcoins again and again, bitcoin banks! regulations! So in a few months bitcoin will be 'To big to fail' ![Angry](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/angry.gif)
|
|
|
|
MysteryMiner
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1049
Death to enemies!
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 28, 2012, 12:42:01 AM |
|
Microsoft could easily issue a patch to Windows that would disable all bitcoin related software on computers running Windows. And how exactly they are supposed to trick users installing this crap? Power users usually disable automatic updates and download them manually from technet. Windows Genuine Advantage will never happen again!
|
bc1q59y5jp2rrwgxuekc8kjk6s8k2es73uawprre4j
|
|
|
ArticMine
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 28, 2012, 12:49:24 AM |
|
Bitcoin is international, so good luck for the governments or the banks to stop it. Microsoft could easily issue a patch to Windows that would disable all bitcoin related software on computers running Windows. This would shut down a very large portion of the bitcoin nodes and mining hashing power. This is a far greater threat to bitcoin in my opinion than the potential actions of governments or banks. I seriously doubt Windows can even be made to run on the likes of BFL's FPGA and ASICs. And nodes aren't exactly scarce - even if nine tenths of them go down in a day the Bitcoin network is basically fine. If the FPGA or ASIC is controlled via a Microsoft Windows machine the vulnerability is still there; however I do agree that FPGAs and / or ASICs will reduce greatly the danger to the bitcoin network posed by botnets of infected Windows computers. As to the impact on the bitcoin network of shutting down all the Windows nodes and mining, while I do believe bitcoin would survive in that scenario it is the single biggest risk to bitcoin from one single centralized source.
|
|
|
|
ArticMine
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 28, 2012, 12:57:09 AM |
|
Microsoft could easily issue a patch to Windows that would disable all bitcoin related software on computers running Windows. And how exactly they are supposed to trick users installing this crap? Power users usually disable automatic updates and download them manually from technet. Windows Genuine Advantage will never happen again! Have you seen the source code for what you download from Technet? If the answer is no then you a trusting Microsoft. Unless one does not update Windows at all there is no getting around the trust of a single centralized authority controlling over 90% of computers worldwide. The name of this authority with centralized control is Microsoft.
|
|
|
|
MysteryMiner
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1049
Death to enemies!
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 28, 2012, 01:10:16 AM |
|
Have you seen the source code for what you download from Technet? No, but You also did not manually inspect your favorite Linux source code line-by-line to see if it contains backdoors and you cannot be sure that the ISO images You used are compiled from these sources, right? The patch files contain files and instructions that can be unpacked and inspected (at least what files are replaced etc.). If the answer is no then you a trusting Microsoft. I'm fully aware of this problem. Unless one does not update Windows at all there is no getting around the trust of a single centralized authority controlling over 90% of computers worldwide. Not updating is bad idea, just as bad as allowing the Windows Update to install whatever Microsoft pushes on Windows update. At least I inspect every patch before I put them on my production computers. But even if the network suffers attack from Microsoft that disables 60% of nodes, the network will continue to function. Yes it is true that FPGA and ASIC must be controlled by computer, but many miners use other OS than Windows. There is less Bitcoin users that run Windows than in general population. Microsoft using such method will be like a Derp Gun - single shot, high damage, low accuracy and years long reload time. More danger will come from making Bitcoin illegal like P2P file sharing is. The Bitcoin is not encrypted or obfuscated and users who are running nodes in plain can be harassed by law enforcement like torrent uploaders are right now.
|
bc1q59y5jp2rrwgxuekc8kjk6s8k2es73uawprre4j
|
|
|
ArticMine
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 28, 2012, 01:56:28 AM |
|
Have you seen the source code for what you download from Technet? No, but You also did not manually inspect your favorite Linux source code line-by-line to see if it contains backdoors and you cannot be sure that the ISO images You used are compiled from these sources, right? The patch files contain files and instructions that can be unpacked and inspected (at least what files are replaced etc.). If the answer is no then you a trusting Microsoft. I'm fully aware of this problem. Unless one does not update Windows at all there is no getting around the trust of a single centralized authority controlling over 90% of computers worldwide. Not updating is bad idea, just as bad as allowing the Windows Update to install whatever Microsoft pushes on Windows update. At least I inspect every patch before I put them on my production computers. The key difference is that with Free Libre Open Source is that the source code is there for everyone to see. If a GNU/Linux distributer were to distribute binaries that did not match the source code they would be exposed in no time and in addition would be liable to civil and criminal liability for copyright infringement. So I do not need to inspect every line of code to not trust the GNU/Linux distributer and yet use that distribution. But even if the network suffers attack from Microsoft that disables 60% of nodes, the network will continue to function. Yes it is true that FPGA and ASIC must be controlled by computer, but many miners use other OS than Windows. There is less Bitcoin users that run Windows than in general population. Microsoft using such method will be like a Derp Gun - single shot, high damage, low accuracy and years long reload time.
Of course the fact many Bitcoin users do not run Windows is a great source of strength for the bitcoin network. More danger will come from making Bitcoin illegal like P2P file sharing is. The Bitcoin is not encrypted or obfuscated and users who are running nodes in plain can be harassed by law enforcement like torrent uploaders are right now.
P2P file sharing is not illegal. Copyright infringement may be illegal under certain circumstances; however the most common liability for individuals is civil damages. In the scenario where a government were to try to stop Bitcoin the most efficient method would be to get Microsoft and Apple to shutdown most of the nodes. They can then concentrate their resources on the much fewer remaining GNU/Linux nodes. What is is really scary is that this can be done without making Bitcoin illegal thereby avoiding the legal and constitutional challenges that would arise in many countries. The best analogy is Wikileaks, just replace VISA, MasterCard, PayPal etc. with Microsoft and Apple in the Bitcoin case.
|
|
|
|
MysteryMiner
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1049
Death to enemies!
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
October 28, 2012, 02:14:30 AM |
|
The key difference is that with Free Libre Open Source is that the source code is there for everyone to see. If a GNU/Linux distributer were to distribute binaries that did not match the source code they would be exposed in no time and in addition would be liable to civil and criminal liability for copyright infringement. So I do not need to inspect every line of code to not trust the GNU/Linux distributer and yet use that distribution. ORLY? With so much code does everyone ACTUALLY verifies that the Debian ISO's he compiles and packages match the same ISO's that are available for download? Don't take this as a criticism of open source model, the open source is superior but there is much to be done that is not done. Of course the fact many Bitcoin users do not run Windows is a great source of strength for the bitcoin network. Redundancy in diversity, no single point of failure. P2P file sharing is not illegal. Copyright infringement may be illegal under certain circumstances; however the most common liability for individuals is civil damages. You are too US-centric. Cops just start downloading copyrighted torrent and gather the IP addresses of peers. They don't do this here now, but the legal and technical base is already established. In the scenario where a government were to try to stop Bitcoin the most efficient method would be to get Microsoft and Apple to shutdown most of the nodes. They can then concentrate their resources on the much fewer remaining GNU/Linux nodes. What is is really scary is that this can be done without making Bitcoin illegal thereby avoiding the legal and constitutional challenges that would arise in many countries. The best analogy is Wikileaks, just replace VISA, MasterCard, PayPal etc. with Microsoft and Apple in the Bitcoin case. It will not work! In worst case scenario users will reinstall Windows from DVD and be back and very pissed. You cannot reliably prevent come program from being run on computer by user. Microsoft Malicious software removal tool or various antiviruses might be such program but it can do such padla only once!
|
bc1q59y5jp2rrwgxuekc8kjk6s8k2es73uawprre4j
|
|
|
|