Deepbit Approaching 50% Once Again

[bcpokey]

if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.

This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365

When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security

why would deepbit have vested interest and be investing resources to damage itself, its reputation and bitcoin network? i can't find any reason
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.

I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem

Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.

there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger.   analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environmental, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.

There are other competing pools. One, for instance, is Bitcoins.lc. 0% fee; you will make more in the long run (around 3% more...)

please read what i've said.    0 fee don't compare with highest earning pool even if it is not free!  prove otherwise and I may convert. please run 2 identical cards side by side for a week and show earnings in bitcoins.lc and earnings in deepbit, if you get more coins in bitcoins.lc and can prove it make most short/long term then we'll talk, actually you will have nice chunk converted from deepbit.   so far reason tells me i have more luck with deepbit even if it's at premium cost.

Err how do you think bitcoin mining works?

At time scales of a week, yes, you will make 3% more on a 0% fee pool. LUCK is the same on every pool. Deepbit has more miners, therefore can solve a block quicker, but you get much less payout per block (LESS 3%). Another pool w/ less miners working will take longer to solve a block, but the payout is higher.

very simple, largest entity takes biggest slice.   the blocks that deepbit sloved  is a loss everywhere else. with us in deepbit you have less chances of solving blocks! if your 0 fee pool doesn't mine any blocks or mines very minimal, what's good 3% more of 0 earnings?
with your philosophy everyone should be mining solo, and i would not mind mining solo, but waiting for a few month on average to catch a block is a risk i don't want to take, the more network grows the less chances i have ever finding a block without even counting difficulty variable in.  large/est pool provides constant earnings and more chances for a pool as a whole to get the block faster than anybody else.
thats how pools became essencial, once it was difficult to solo mine, next it will be difficult to mine at smaller pools.

Yes, it takes the biggest slice; but you get payed LESS because you are contributing a proportionality less amount of power to their pool.
In the long run you get the same amount of coin. You have a higher variance if you are in a small pool; but in the timescale of a week this is negligible.

run 2 cards/rigs/DCs for a 24hr/week/month/year/etc in parallel deepbit and other pool and show me that with deepbit you earned 3% less than in smaller pool, then i will believe you. for now deepbit works great for me and roughly for the other 50% of the network and we have an instant payout!

You don't need to force someone to run 2 gpus. Just look at the statistics page of any pools. Compare their hash rates with the amount of blocks they've solved. Then calculate the difference of fees. Done. It's very simple math and you will see very quickly you're wrong.

[1715248647]

1715248647

[KnuttyD]

if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.

This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365

When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security

why would deepbit have vested interest and be investing resources to damage itself, its reputation and bitcoin network? i can't find any reason
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.

I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem

Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.

there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger.   analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environmental, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.

There are other competing pools. One, for instance, is Bitcoins.lc. 0% fee; you will make more in the long run (around 3% more...)

please read what i've said.    0 fee don't compare with highest earning pool even if it is not free!  prove otherwise and I may convert. please run 2 identical cards side by side for a week and show earnings in bitcoins.lc and earnings in deepbit, if you get more coins in bitcoins.lc and can prove it make most short/long term then we'll talk, actually you will have nice chunk converted from deepbit.   so far reason tells me i have more luck with deepbit even if it's at premium cost.

Err how do you think bitcoin mining works?

At time scales of a week, yes, you will make 3% more on a 0% fee pool. LUCK is the same on every pool. Deepbit has more miners, therefore can solve a block quicker, but you get much less payout per block (LESS 3%). Another pool w/ less miners working will take longer to solve a block, but the payout is higher.

very simple, largest entity takes biggest slice.   the blocks that deepbit sloved  is a loss everywhere else. with us in deepbit you have less chances of solving blocks! if your 0 fee pool doesn't mine any blocks or mines very minimal, what's good 3% more of 0 earnings?
with your philosophy everyone should be mining solo, and i would not mind mining solo, but waiting for a few month on average to catch a block is a risk i don't want to take, the more network grows the less chances i have ever finding a block without even counting difficulty variable in.  large/est pool provides constant earnings and more chances for a pool as a whole to get the block faster than anybody else.
thats how pools became essencial, once it was difficult to solo mine, next it will be difficult to mine at smaller pools.

Yes, it takes the biggest slice; but you get payed LESS because you are contributing a proportionality less amount of power to their pool.
In the long run you get the same amount of coin. You have a higher variance if you are in a small pool; but in the timescale of a week this is negligible.

run 2 cards/rigs/DCs for a 24hr/week/month/year/etc in parallel deepbit and other pool and show me that with deepbit you earned 3% less than in smaller pool, then i will believe you. for now deepbit works great for me and roughly for the other 50% of the network and we have an instant payout!

Bitcoins.lc has instant payout.
AND when 50% of the network is controlled by Deepbit, we get some major security issues!

Its frivolous to "prove it", because it says ON the website that they take 3%.

[Serge]

if deepbit tries to do anything shady, its hashing power will get close to zero real fast, and that will be the end for it.

This is not the problem: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12120.msg170365#msg170365

When the damage is done - it is done. BTC will rapidly lose value and I doubt they'll ever recover again. Because that would break one of the major advantages: security

why would deepbit have vested interest and be investing resources to damage itself, its reputation and bitcoin network? i can't find any reason
your projected loss of value is just a speculation. my speculation any loss of value/confidence will be temporal until things gets fixed and made stronger.

I wouldn't mind stress-testing system as early as possible which may provide learning experience how to deal with similar treats later on when network grows significantly. Although that's what test blockchain is for.
I have no problem being in over 50% mining pool until there is a problem

Until there is a problem? Why dont you want to prevent a problem?
Its not a matter of weather Tycho can be trusted or not (I believe he can), but the fact that we would allow Bitcoins security to be compromised all because of a single pool.

there is nothing to prevent at the moment.
i believe i have most earnings at deepbit if you can prove me i can earn most elsewhere i will certainly research and consider it, but telling 0 fee is better than any fees at major pool while same pool gets most of blocks is silly.
if we get our security compromised i believe network will rebound and come out stronger.   analogy, if you grow your kids in maximum disinfected environmental, bacteria free, they will grow up with weaker immune systems and will be bound to many health risks in the future because their immune system did not learn how to fight off microbes and adopt in life.

There are other competing pools. One, for instance, is Bitcoins.lc. 0% fee; you will make more in the long run (around 3% more...)

please read what i've said.    0 fee don't compare with highest earning pool even if it is not free!  prove otherwise and I may convert. please run 2 identical cards side by side for a week and show earnings in bitcoins.lc and earnings in deepbit, if you get more coins in bitcoins.lc and can prove it make most short/long term then we'll talk, actually you will have nice chunk converted from deepbit.   so far reason tells me i have more luck with deepbit even if it's at premium cost.

Err how do you think bitcoin mining works?

At time scales of a week, yes, you will make 3% more on a 0% fee pool. LUCK is the same on every pool. Deepbit has more miners, therefore can solve a block quicker, but you get much less payout per block (LESS 3%). Another pool w/ less miners working will take longer to solve a block, but the payout is higher.

very simple, largest entity takes biggest slice.   the blocks that deepbit sloved  is a loss everywhere else. with us in deepbit you have less chances of solving blocks! if your 0 fee pool doesn't mine any blocks or mines very minimal, what's good 3% more of 0 earnings?
with your philosophy everyone should be mining solo, and i would not mind mining solo, but waiting for a few month on average to catch a block is a risk i don't want to take, the more network grows the less chances i have ever finding a block without even counting difficulty variable in.  large/est pool provides constant earnings and more chances for a pool as a whole to get the block faster than anybody else.
thats how pools became essencial, once it was difficult to solo mine, next it will be difficult to mine at smaller pools.

Yes, it takes the biggest slice; but you get payed LESS because you are contributing a proportionality less amount of power to their pool.
In the long run you get the same amount of coin. You have a higher variance if you are in a small pool; but in the timescale of a week this is negligible.

No, that is not at all how it works. Every block solution is independent of the other. If you are talking about of the 2016 blocks per difficulty level I guess that's true, deepbit solves the most blocks out of all the pools. And as you stated each individual miner is paid proportionally of that to what they contributed.

The only difference between pools is the luck of that pool, whether on average they solved more or less blocks than their proportional computing power should have. A user who has 1% of the total networks hashing power should however on average earn 1% of the bitcoins (minus fees).

the luck. coincidentally the larger your hashing power - more luck you have, deepbit in its share size is more lucky finding blocks than any other pool.  i totally understand that i or anyone can go solo mine and by some odd chance be getting all blocks for the rest of your life and everyone else be making nada -   very unlikely though, so the more hashing power - faster blocks can be solved. in my view as i have repeated previously i feel more lucky mining at deepbit than dancing about 0 fees elsewhere or going solo, for now.

[Serge]

run 2 cards/rigs/DCs for a 24hr/week/month/year/etc in parallel deepbit and other pool and show me that with deepbit you earned 3% less than in smaller pool, then i will believe you. for now deepbit works great for me and roughly for the other 50% of the network and we have an instant payout!

It's apparent that statistics and math mean absolutely nothing to you. Like so many others, the PayDay Loan option has you with Dollar/Bitcoin signs in your eyes. All the while, the man behind the counter is laughing at you.

its naive to ask someone to cut their earnings for the greater good of __incert_your_mega_humane_reason_here_because_it_is_obvoius_you're_trying_to_protecting_your_own_interests__

I'm very excited about bitcoins and would love it to see it succeed, my hashing power so little that  i don't see dollar signs in front of my eyes accompanied with sounds of cash register like you make it sound.
if you are not happy with deepbit - don't mine in there. when i won't be happy with deepbit's performance - i will switch to something else. what is the problem again?

[KnuttyD]

allot of rage allot of talk and nome or few solutions = losing time

I put together a Deepbit DDOS kit: http://www.mediafire.com/?b7gnz418m1w947d

[bcpokey]

the luck. coincidentally the larger your hashing power - more luck you have, deepbit in its share size is more lucky finding blocks than any other pool.  i totally understand that i or anyone can go solo mine and by some odd chance be getting all blocks for the rest of your life and everyone else be making nada -   very unlikely though, so the more hashing power - faster blocks can be solved. in my view as i have repeated previously i feel more lucky mining at deepbit than dancing about 0 fees elsewhere or going solo, for now.
[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about? The higher your hashing power the LESS luck you have. That's what variance is, it is how much you stray from the norm (good / bad luck).

If you have more hashing power you have lower variance, meaning you have less good / bad luck and are closer to the calculated average.

You can feel however you want, but that's not how math works. And since bitcoin is a digital currency math is what rules.

[NghtRppr]

I put together a Deepbit DDOS kit: http://www.mediafire.com/?b7gnz418m1w947d

That's definitely immoral and probably illegal depending on where you live.

[KnuttyD]

I put together a Deepbit DDOS kit: http://www.mediafire.com/?b7gnz418m1w947d

That's both immoral and illegal.

Hmm... true.
Links taken down.

[bitcoinminer]

Why not create a tool that generates scripts for new users to use BitCoin, or some useful function, rather than DDoS scripts?  How does attacking a site lots of people enjoy accomplish anything positive?

[tehcodez]

Several ways...isn't that the competition-based argument. The same people who float deepbit now float Sarah Palin's financial needs.

You should put that script other places...once they verify the forged blocks deep's putting out you'll need it lol.

[KnuttyD]

Several ways...isn't that the competition-based argument. The same people who float deepbit now float Sarah Palin's financial needs.

You should put that script other places...once they verify the forged blocks deep's putting out you'll need it lol.

Heh the DDoS script was overkill; working on some scripts to easy-switch over to some other pools.

[GreenSky]

Just switched back to slush's pool purely for this reason.

I always liked slush's pool better anyway. Was riding out the 0% fee on deepbit. Now that it's over, no reason to stay.

[IlbiStarz]

50%...

[grndzero]

Bump because there's not enough deepbit threads on the main page.

[cjp]

This issue worries me, and I have been thinking about solutions.

I have to admit I did not read this entire thread, but can someone please tell me if the following can be done?

I think that having pools is necessary, because the large number of miners makes the probability of getting a block reward very low, and most people prefer a steady income to a 'lottery-like' system. So, it makes sense for miners to organize themselves into large groups, preferably with at least a few percent of the total mining capacity per group.

On the other hand, it is not good for Bitcoin if the decision-making of what transactions are accepted is centralized in such groups. Such decision-making should be either left to the individual members in the mining pool, or it should be made centrally and then checked by the members.

If I am correct, several mining pools (deepbit is one of them) use the same RPC protocol, which is supported by multiple mining programs. This thread describes the RPC protocol. Apparently, the pool server sends blocks to the members, which can then search for solutions of the hashing problem.

The solution:
Can't we make the mining software such that it checks the validity of the block that is sent by the pool server, before it starts solving the hash problem? If most miners use such software, then the pool leader can't do anything like double-spending, even if the pool covers more than 50% of the mining capacity.

Next: how to convince miners to upgrade their mining software?