F.GIGA.ETF to be delisted on December 1st, 2012.

[JoelKatz]

Really, read the quoted discussion rather than trying to re-enact it as if it were fresh.

It doesn't answer the $64,000 question: Are you attempting to go through Giga's process to recover some of your investors' funds? If not, why not? I'm not implying that you don't have good reasons, just that you haven't made clear what they are.

[1715499552]

1715499552

[1715499552]

1715499552

[burnside]

I read the conversation MPOE-pr posted.

I see:

- Mircea justifying his inability to be patient.

mircea_popescu: Right. It’s been 8 dividend periods. That’s close to a decade.

- Mircea justifying not keeping any record of the shares.

mircea_popescu: well, it is kept aside if you keep your stats.

- Mircea claiming that GLBSE was dead and not responding to anyone.  (In fact many people were in contact with James, and some lists were in fact released, and other than for a day or two the site was in fact up the majority of November.)

mircea_popescu: But GLBSE.com is no longer responding, is it.

- Mircea clarifying his attitude toward the shareholders that used GLBSE:

mircea_popescu: Well does it seem likely or wtf. Half the GLBSE shareholders are pretty much lieing scumbags, as it came out. I thought you were all against mixing fact and fiction.

- Mircea shuts down an attempt at reasoning with him:  (actually this happens several times)

BTC-Mining: I don’t expect 30 years. I’m just asking, suppose the data is released in the next few months, would you honor the most recent information?

mircea_popescu: If those next few months are November, then absolutely.

.... The rest of it loops repeatedly.  

In summary:

BTC-Mining: Keeping the data aside doesn’t cost much logistically.
mircea_popescu: well, it is kept aside if you keep your stats.
mircea_popescu: mpex isn’t designed to be a sort of glbse

To which I'll add... perhaps not in function, but clearly in form.

The whole thing reeks.  Maybe Mircea doesn't intend to gain financially from this, but he's definitely screwing everyone that held shares on MPEx.  (his own exchange!)

He could however, still make it right.  Cross your fingers?

[rdponticelli]

Well  since its a passthrough MPEX would need to send all their personal info to reclaim the shares.

This is correct. I've kindly asked Mircea to reconsider and he declined.

I may be willing to make the claim on behalf of Mircea, or whoever was his proxy. I would need to arrange the details with Mircea, but I don't mind to take in charge the bureaucratic task.

Then I could receive claims from the etf holders, (preferably a signed receipt from the exchange, right after the asset wasn't trade-able any more) and I can setup a system to distribute the dividends, maybe discounting the expenses. My own claim is this:

Code:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Holdings for Ruben Dario Ponticelli (fingerprint 1BC479F968C1D01EA388673A007D7A89C6DF7B2D)
Issued today, Monday the 3rd of December 2012 at 06:50:50 PM (0.20050800 1354560650)
To certify that the aforementioned holds as of the quoted time the following with MPEx :

        F.GIGA.ETF x 116`613

To which add orders in the book fully paid in advance :


To which add sums deposited as surety for underwritten option contracts :


Your transactions since 1 hour before your last STAT :

You have also been paid dividends, as follows :

The Great Seal of the exchange has been duly applied.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFQvPSKkhT8a/G2mSERAvmRAKCfjRPVBNDxEBQdUoTpxi4EeRdI1gCcCx8J
9eH3oXP1vzw338hs3iJSPEM=
=5f1E
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

So, my self interest is that of the assets holders.

Would you see it workable?

[MPOE-PR]

I read the conversation MPOE-pr posted.

I doubt you did. Maybe you skimmed it, maybe you gave up halfway through, but at any rate you left out the parts that actually matter.

smickles mircea_popescu: directly, if I had proof that I owned F.GIGA.ETF on Dec 1, would you give me fair value of those shares at any point in the future if I relinquish my ownership of them?

mircea_popescu smickles I will (and always have) satisfy legitimate claims against myself. Now, it'll all come down to whether your claim is legitimate at that point.
smickles There you have it BTC-Mining.

For some reason this seems to not be easily understood. I have no idea why, it's right there. But anyway: as long as you have a legitimate claim you'll be paid.

mircea_popescu the chain of dispute is very simple and efficient, let me explain it : I. Person complains about MPEx. Either person has or has not a stat to back their complaint. If they do not, complaint is invalid. II. MPEx reviews complaint. Either it has or it has not ulterior transactions signed by person. If it does the complaint is invalid. End of dispute. There's no guessing involved in any of this.

Again, as above. What's unclear/not obvious about this?

mircea_popescu The transaction (in general, the historical) data was never in discussion.
BTC-Mining When you said you'd delete ALL data for the ETF, I understood it as ALL the data. Including signed transactions...
mircea_popescu I didn't say I delete all data lol. I said the shares are discarded as worthless.

The shares, like it or not, are worthless. They're dead, the interplay of Nefario, lawyers and whatnot has rendered GIGAMINING and derivative shares useless. Like it or not, this is a fact. The only end game for this is going to be some sort of settlement payment from Giga. If and when that happens, it will probably make sense to make a claim. Yet again, what's not obvious, reasonable or logical about this?

Sometimes y'all act as if this were the first time you were involved in financial transactions, I swear.

I may be willing to make the claim on behalf of Mircea, or whoever was his proxy. I would need to arrange the details with Mircea, but I don't mind to take in charge the bureaucratic task.

I don't think that's going anywhere.

It doesn't answer the $64,000 question: Are you attempting to go through Giga's process to recover some of your investors' funds? If not, why not? I'm not implying that you don't have good reasons, just that you haven't made clear what they are.

No.

This however has no bearing on the investors' rights (which seems to be, possibly, the mistake everyone is making?).

[guruvan]

burnside - that's how every conversation with Mircea goes. Thus I saw little point in digging through it looking for where he said he was going to pay, and instead noticed the key points you have shown us.  And, yes, he could still make it right, but as stubborn and arrogant as Mircea is, that seems unlikely. He seems likely to destroy his business with his attitude, and this may just become the final nail in the coffin.

rdponticelli: yeah. I'm sure Mircea would agree to that  

JoelKatz: I appreciate your open mind, but what could that good reason possibly look like? It seems to me there are very few, if any, good reasons to fail to claim money owed to one's investors. Furthermore, since the asset clearly is not worthless shouldn't it be the case that Mircea should owe investors regardless of whether or not he makes a claim to gigavps. I think so. I don't care whether Mircea gets the money from giga, just whether or not he pays investors.

EDIT: So, MPOE-PR graces us by digging out the one nugget of actual information in that pile of drivel. about time.

So. MPOE-PR - please inform us what is the plan for paying out on this asset.

[MPOE-PR]

burnside - that's how every conversation with Mircea goes. Thus I saw little point in digging through it looking for where he said he was going to pay, and instead noticed the key points you have shown us.  And, yes, he could still make it right, but as stubborn and arrogant as Mircea is, that seems unlikely. He seems likely to destroy his business with his attitude, and this may just become the final nail in the coffin.

I dunno, dood. So far what I see is you being too agitated to sit down and read, flailing your arms and calling people names. What school of negotiation/conflict resolution is this?

[JoelKatz]

It doesn't answer the $64,000 question: Are you attempting to go through Giga's process to recover some of your investors' funds? If not, why not? I'm not implying that you don't have good reasons, just that you haven't made clear what they are.

No.

This however has no bearing on the investors' rights (which seems to be, possibly, the mistake everyone is making?).

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say. It seems there are only four possibilities:

1) Investors get nothing.

2) You make a payment to investors from your own pocket.

3) You pursue going through Giga's claim process and pass any funds you reclaim to investors.

4) You pursue some other source of recovery, such as suing GLBSE or negotiating with Giga, and pass any funds (perhaps less expenses) you reclaim to investors.

I think your comments rule out 1 and 3, but I'm not quite sure. You seem to be hinting at something with "This however has no bearing on the investors' rights", but I can't figure out what. Are you deliberately trying to be vague and evasive or am I missing something?

[guruvan]

burnside - that's how every conversation with Mircea goes. Thus I saw little point in digging through it looking for where he said he was going to pay, and instead noticed the key points you have shown us.  And, yes, he could still make it right, but as stubborn and arrogant as Mircea is, that seems unlikely. He seems likely to destroy his business with his attitude, and this may just become the final nail in the coffin.

I dunno, dood. So far what I see is you being too agitated to sit down and read, flailing your arms and calling people names. What school of negotiation/conflict resolution is this?

Whatever. Let us know when you're going to pay out. While you're at it, returning the proof I would need to "make a legitimate claim" wouldn't be a half bad idea.

MPEx removed a non-worthless asset (it may have been non-tradeable, but that doesn't make it worthless - you show your own financial ignorance at times)

MPEx uses STAT output for proof of ownership of assets, as this is gpg signed by the exchange.

That proof is no longer available in asset holders' accounts, as it has been removed.

With the communication typical of exchange operators, MPEx has done exactly zip to assure investors they'd be paid.

I am not failing my arms. But, I don't see the need to read pages of shit that mircea posts in order to get the one piece of information MPOE-PR is too lazy (on the first go 'round) to post "her"self. And, MPOE-PR/Mircea, if you can't take name calling, don't dish it out. You're one of the most offensive posters in all of bitcoin (I'm sure I'd not get much argument on THAT point!)

[rdponticelli]

I may be willing to make the claim on behalf of Mircea, or whoever was his proxy. I would need to arrange the details with Mircea, but I don't mind to take in charge the bureaucratic task.

I don't think that's going anywhere.

Why not?

There's a procedure in place to claim the (pretty big) value our investment has accrued. You're refusing to follow it. I'm being supportive and understanding and I'm considering that you may have your good reasons (privacy, laziness, who knows or cares?) to act this way, and my proposal is even relieving you from that burden. I don't even want to think what motives may you have to refuse even this kind bailout I'm generously offering you.

You already have my public key. Send to me, obviously encrypted, any info I would need to make the claim and I'll take care of everything else...

[MPOE-PR]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say. It seems there are only four possibilities:

1) Investors get nothing.

2) You make a payment to investors from your own pocket.

3) You pursue going through Giga's claim process and pass any funds you reclaim to investors.

4) You pursue some other source of recovery, such as suing GLBSE or negotiating with Giga, and pass any funds (perhaps less expenses) you reclaim to investors.

I think your comments rule out 1 and 3, but I'm not quite sure. You seem to be hinting at something with "This however has no bearing on the investors' rights", but I can't figure out what. Are you deliberately trying to be vague and evasive or am I missing something?

I'm neither trying to be vague nor to be evasive. I'm trying to separate that which can in fact be answered (what MP will do) from that which cannot in fact be answered (what will happen in the future). Any attempt to conflate elements drawn from these two distinct groups will result in partial answers, only to the first part, for the pretty good reason that nobody can answer as to the second part.

Obviously I understand that everyone would very much want to know "what will happen". Heck, so would I. How do you practically go about it? One day GLBSE is fine, the next it's awol. One day Nefario is giving out info, the next weeks he's not. Then he is. Then the lists are broken. Then Giga wants a ream of paperwork. Then new lists come up. Then who exactly knows what tomorrow brings? I'm sorry, but I can't answer that. All I can say are basic things such as yes, MPEx will pay legitimate claims. Of course it will. Will X claim be legitimate? I don't know. Nobody does. We'll have to get there and see.

Otherwise, the situation is something like this:
a)Mircea Popescu made a pass-through of a GLBSE asset, at no cost, with no performance (which literally means, he was not going to do absolutely anything other than send the money received along to investors).
b)The GLBSE asset was destroyed.
c)The GLBSE asset issuer is trying to create a replacement, which is laudable, but he's doing it in such a way as to put more burden on the pass-through operator than he either promised or offered to take. This is understandable, from that issuer's perspective, for a variety of reasons already discussed in the respective threads, but the fact that it's understandable doesn't make its effects go away. 
d)It is possible that in the future some BTC will flow to ex-GIGAMINING holders through this replacement scheme.

So, investors in F.GIGA.ETF may be entitled to some sort of compensation, but conceivably not until such a time as Giga pays something, not unless they actually claim it and likely a fraction thereof. The complexities of "exactly how much" are significant, and at the rate this is going I imagine will have to be established by Rota.

[rdponticelli]

Otherwise, the situation is something like this:
a)Mircea Popescu made a pass-through of a GLBSE asset, at no cost, with no performance (which literally means, he was not going to do absolutely anything other than send the money received along to investors).

I don't agree with this a little bit. Mircea keeps claiming this, but nowhere on mpex offer there was a slight mention of glbse. Instead, the only thing there was published on the asset page on mpex was this:

Code:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have received 900 btc from mircea_popescu for 900 5mh/s perpetual bonds
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPgN6rAAoJEPg1VNdq3jo/quAH/3wPex8LqPyEmh2UWtBEy04g
9YugO88saSvsZNSRm9Qhx0Hs6cpMerLoYgJREBpDiG2dGCS1csCS03QyJ1wLV1Ah
GGYqnGyi1h3MT2f2nMFn9+ouMfp3QyumQswH7U7cdVBV6cdGhdA4c+uE2l9WtHkO
Kl54+947QWzDJHRC5SbB0RCvl52k9KZ6Ac0RNfJ6mUhJy3I45/B281qmICUrjPT0
xTi0td8f4CKcTnTtocKw7blKbAEoVRBJNyVNnY8h/hGb2Aipp6uZ8Js8c1DeqY8P
lx0OX6G+KHQIBEuuKt5TpmECUE2Nky2A3Dm9JreF7cqnKhK7RfJfgqoApQ2zou0=
=CBon
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

So, I bought a passthrough to giga's bonds, not to glbse.

[MPOE-PR]

I seriously don't see the point of re-hashing the linked article here line by line.

[EskimoBob]

I seriously don't see the point of re-hashing the linked article here line by line.

Not sure why is this mircea character hiding behind your huge virtual arse? If he has something to say, let him do it under his own name and end this silly charade.

[Monster Tent]

I seriously don't see the point of re-hashing the linked article here line by line.

Perhaps in the scam accusations board. Im sure after all your blathering about nefario and glbse over the years you will be able to explain why you deleted assets from peoples accounts and how that makes mpex so much better than every other bitcoin site.

[jamesg]

To be very clear, I specifically asked Mircea to make a claim to GLBSE and to me.

He said he would do neither.

[burnside]

I read the conversation MPOE-pr posted.

I doubt you did. Maybe you skimmed it, maybe you gave up halfway through, but at any rate you left out the parts that actually matter.

smickles mircea_popescu: directly, if I had proof that I owned F.GIGA.ETF on Dec 1, would you give me fair value of those shares at any point in the future if I relinquish my ownership of them?

mircea_popescu smickles I will (and always have) satisfy legitimate claims against myself. Now, it'll all come down to whether your claim is legitimate at that point.
smickles There you have it BTC-Mining.

For some reason this seems to not be easily understood. I have no idea why, it's right there. But anyway: as long as you have a legitimate claim you'll be paid.

Yeah, I read that.  But for that one tidbit, in several other places he says they're worthless.  He also stated that a stat would no longer show your shares, so I'm a little confused as to how someone now uses the stat as evidence of a claim?

See, I also read this:  (prior to reading the linked conversation)

Well  since its a passthrough MPEX would need to send all their personal info to reclaim the shares.

This is correct. I've kindly asked Mircea to reconsider and he declined.

So... perhaps a clearer official response could be assembled by MPEx?

[JoelKatz]

I don't agree with this a little bit. Mircea keeps claiming this, but nowhere on mpex offer there was a slight mention of glbse. Instead, the only thing there was published on the asset page on mpex was this:

Code:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I have received 900 btc from mircea_popescu for 900 5mh/s perpetual bonds
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

So, I bought a passthrough to giga's bonds, not to glbse.

Apparently, she only believes that others should be held to the letter of their agreements. When it's *her* agreement, and people *she* relied on don't do what she relied on them to do, her investors have to eat it.

The funny thing is, if not for her prior positions on Patrick, I'd likely agree with her on this issue.

[MPOE-PR]

Yeah, I read that. But for that one tidbit, in several other places he says they're worthless.

Which they are. To help bring this point home, the 116,613 block rdponticelli showed would have been worth somewhere between 30 and 50 BTC on the market back in September (before GLBSE collapsed) and was trading for anywhere between 3 and 4 BTC in October (after GLBSE collapsed).

Since then block rewards halved. We're in any event not discussing any sort of fortunes here, even if for a moment we disregard the very obvious fact that GLBSE shares no longer exist nor will they ever exist again which makes any derivatives of them worthless quite plainly.

He also stated that a stat would no longer show your shares, so I'm a little confused as to how someone now uses the stat as evidence of a claim?

The delisting of F.GIGA.ETF was announced, in this very thread, and on irc, repeatedly, over a month in advance. The concerns of people interested were discussed, openly, for hours, more than a month ago, by the man in charge himself. People were in fact able to obtain STATs as late as the 3rd, as shown by rdponticelli's STAT above. What exactly do you expect here? If you imagine MPEx is somehow held to keep in its active databases worthless assets just because X amateur investor has not quite reached the intellectual maturity that'd allow him to correctly book losses, you are very much mistaken. MPEx is an exchange, not a laundry list of irrational hopes.

Apparently, she only believes that others should be held to the letter of their agreements. When it's *her* agreement, and people *she* relied on don't do what she relied on them to do, her investors have to eat it.

Quote that letter you're talking about. If the next thing you post starts with anything other than that quote or an apology, you're going back on my ignore.

[burnside]

Which they are. To help bring this point home, the 116,613 block rdponticelli showed would have been worth somewhere between 30 and 50 BTC on the market back in September (before GLBSE collapsed) and was trading for anywhere between 3 and 4 BTC in October (after GLBSE collapsed).

And if they were trading now they would be at... ?

Since then block rewards halved. We're in any event not discussing any sort of fortunes here, even if for a moment we disregard the very obvious fact that GLBSE shares no longer exist nor will they ever exist again which makes any derivatives of them worthless quite plainly.

Yeah,
  and ice isn't frozen water.
  and mud isn't wet dirt.
  and gigashares that were on glbse aren't claimable.

oh.  wait.

He also stated that a stat would no longer show your shares, so I'm a little confused as to how someone now uses the stat as evidence of a claim?

The delisting of F.GIGA.ETF was announced, in this very thread, and on irc, repeatedly, over a month in advance. The concerns of people interested were discussed, openly, for hours, more than a month ago, by the man in charge himself. People were in fact able to obtain STATs as late as the 3rd, as shown by rdponticelli's STAT above. What exactly do you expect here? If you imagine MPEx is somehow held to keep in its active databases worthless assets just because X amateur investor has not quite reached the intellectual maturity that'd allow him to correctly book losses, you are very much mistaken. MPEx is an exchange, not a laundry list of irrational hopes.

Kind of a bummer that you have no way to notify shareholders on your exchange when something important comes up.  Everyone has to troll your irc channel or all their investments might *poof* on them.

I would expect the records to be available for the duration of the existence of MPEx.  If that's not possible for technical reasons, I'd say 24 months.  Financial records need to be around long enough to last the year they were traded, plus the following year so that the records are available at tax time.

Cheers.

[MPOE-PR]

Kind of a bummer that you have no way to notify shareholders on your exchange when something important comes up.  Everyone has to troll your irc channel or all their investments might *poof* on them.

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the part where you are posting in the very thread announcing this, one month in advance. But no, everybody does not have to anything.

More importantly: this is exactly how things work on that MPEx wanna-be, ie NYSE. You don't follow the news? You miss out. Gotta follow the news. You wanna play the retail investor and not follow (or understand) the news? Use a broker.

I would like to take a moment here to thank you all for having noticed that in fact MPEx gave abundant and sufficient notice of what was going to happen, and for having properly commended MPEx for yet again setting the standard of correct behavior in the field. I would like to also show my appreciation for people having acted responsibly and sanely, instead of waiting a month and a week, until after the announced cutoff. Well done. Oh...wait?

I would expect the records to be available for the duration of the existence of MPEx.  If that's not possible for technical reasons, I'd say 24 months.

Yet again, you are rehashing dead arguments from a month ago. Mindlessly repeating dead arguments does not breathe one iota of further life into them, they're still dead. Please re-read the linked article. Carefully. Pen in hand if need be.