[(Updated 4/2)USA/CANADA GROUP BUY] Denarium Silver 1 BTC Coins

[Technomage]

I have to double check if we have VAT on outside EU shipping. I'll get back to you guys on that tomorrow. But there is VAT on the shipping inside EU for sure. And the percentage is 24%, it is the Finnish VAT. It doesn't matter what VAT rate the destination country has. It is much simpler that way by the way.

For sales of digital goods there is a new law which says VAT must be paid based on the destination country. That is a complicated mess which has ruined many businesses. Doesn't affect bitcoins though as they are VAT free.

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[Technomage]

I'd just like to add that for us to safely ship that amount of coins with that amount of value, shipping to Mitchell's country has some of the better courier options. If we ship the package somewhere else the overall price of the shipping will be much higher.

So my view on this is that VAT or no VAT, it will be cheapest for you to ship through Mitchell, as the courier option we have for Mitchell's country is otherwise a pretty good value option. And our courier options vary quite a bit country to country even inside EU and of course outside. One of the reasons is that silver is a prohibited product generally speaking and can't even be insured at all when shipped to certain countries (depends again on which courier but then there can be massive price differences).

So I'd recommend not changing the middle man as it's likely the overall price will be more, not less.

[Blazed]

Alright got mine ordered and paid for!

[BookofNick]

Hm, so if there is no VAT going to the US, wouldn't it make sense to do a US group buy and an EU group buy separately? This seems like it would benefit the US participants in this group buy, myself included, if shipped straight to the US, while not changing much regarding the EU participants (who will get hit with VAT no matter what).

I know the shipping is more expensive to the US, but a 24% VAT if shipped to the EU would tack on about 24 EUR to each coin. For one coin they wanted nearly 50 EUR just for shipping to the US, IIRC, but if 10 or 15 coins were shipped, they'd be sending it all in one package, and I wouldn't imagine it would cost more than 80 EUR (I don't know this, we'd have to find that out). If that's the case, then 10 coins (as an example) shipped to the US would be around 8 EUR each, plus the domestic shipping from the "trusted 3rd party."

If they were to ship to an EU middle-man, every US buyer would get hit with 24 EUR VAT plus international shipping.

[bithalo]

Hm, so if there is no VAT going to the US, wouldn't it make sense to do a US group buy and an EU group buy separately? This seems like it would benefit the US participants in this group buy, myself included, if shipped straight to the US, while not changing much regarding the EU participants (who will get hit with VAT no matter what).

I know the shipping is more expensive to the US, but a 24% VAT if shipped to the EU would tack on about 24 EUR to each coin. For one coin they wanted nearly 50 EUR just for shipping to the US, IIRC, but if 10 or 15 coins were shipped, they'd be sending it all in one package, and I wouldn't imagine it would cost more than 80 EUR (I don't know this, we'd have to find that out). If that's the case, then 10 coins (as an example) shipped to the US would be around 8 EUR each, plus the domestic shipping from the "trusted 3rd party."

If they were to ship to an EU middle-man, every US buyer would get hit with 24 EUR VAT plus international shipping.

If this is accurate, I would agree.  I have no interest in paying VAT if I don't have to in the US.  I didn't order loaded coins either which require a EU 3rd party.

[Technomage]

That is not accurate. I don't understand why there is so much confusion but I'm going to take a shot at explaining this one more time.

There is no VAT on the value of the coins themselves in any scenario whatsoever. However keep in mind that this is only in the case of the auction / group buy, normally VAT would affect things differently. In this case any VAT related to the coins we have already included in the sales prices of the auction (which means that we take any hit from the VAT in relation to the coin sales prices).

I have now confirmed there will be VAT on any EU ***SHIPPING COSTS*** and no VAT on any outside EU ***SHIPPING COSTS***.

The effect of the VAT on ***SHIPPING COSTS*** will be insignificant. We are talking 0,5 € per shipping participant *at most*. And if you reroute through somewhere else, it will very likely cost more overall because we have a good courier option to Mitchell's country.

Hopefully this is now clear.

[Technomage]

For shipping costs overall there are other things that matter more than the VAT issue, in terms of overall price. Our courier options vary country to country and the effect of VAT simply isn't enough to overrule those differences.

Don't confuse the value of the coins themselves with shipping costs. Those two things are not related at all (well, except that for security reasons we need to pay for more robust shipping method if the value is high).

But essentially the value of the coins can be 1 billion for example, and I've confirmed there is no VAT issue there. The shipping might be 30 EUR or something like that, and it may have VAT (so 24% on top of the 30 EUR shipping cost). The effect on a single group shipping participant is small. On the other hand shipping to outside Europe might cost us 100 EUR or something like that which would likely increase the overall price to higher levels.

[Pistachio]

Thanks for the explanation Technomage.

Edit: To confirm, everyone who ordered coins after the auction from the main website should expect to pay EU sales tax if items are shipped to an EU address. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is correct, I may place an order directly for E series brass and silver coins instead and have them shipped directly to the USA to avoid additional costs.
If someone orders several L series non-silver coins, will they have to pay the same shipping cost per coin as the 1oz silver even though they weight about 1/4 oz.?

I appreciate the time and effort that ezeminer and Mitchełł have put into organizing this groupbuy. Because of the sales tax requirements for brass coins sold within the EU, I went ahead and placed an order of E series (silver and brass) coins to be shipped directly to the USA.

[BookofNick]

That is not accurate. I don't understand why there is so much confusion but I'm going to take a shot at explaining this one more time.

There is no VAT on the value of the coins themselves in any scenario whatsoever. However keep in mind that this is only in the case of the auction / group buy, normally VAT would affect things differently. In this case any VAT related to the coins we have already included in the sales prices of the auction (which means that we take any hit from the VAT in relation to the coin sales prices).

I have now confirmed there will be VAT on any EU ***SHIPPING COSTS*** and no VAT on any outside EU ***SHIPPING COSTS***.

The effect of the VAT on ***SHIPPING COSTS*** will be insignificant. We are talking 0,5 € per shipping participant *at most*. And if you reroute through somewhere else, it will very likely cost more overall because we have a good courier option to Mitchell's country.

Hopefully this is now clear.

Okay, so it sounds like the VAT is on the shipping costs only, not the coin value? If that's the case, then definitely sounds like a better deal to stick with the plan of shipping to Mitchell.

[Technomage]

Okay, so it sounds like the VAT is on the shipping costs only, not the coin value? If that's the case, then definitely sounds like a better deal to stick with the plan of shipping to Mitchell.

Yes, indeed.

[Mitchell]

Aaah, I was thinking about border related charges. Import costs and all that. This explains a lot, hahaha.

[ezeminer]

Okay, so it sounds like the VAT is on the shipping costs only, not the coin value? If that's the case, then definitely sounds like a better deal to stick with the plan of shipping to Mitchell.

Yes, indeed.

That clears up so much, Thank you.

[ezeminer]

Bump, looks like coins will be shipping mid February.

[ezeminer]

Haven't updated in a while, but I am still awaiting a price for shipping, and a list of everyone's exact orders.

[ezeminer]

So far I have had a response back from Henry saying the package is 60 € to ship to Mitchell. I have asked about the package size and final list of people, and will update when I have more information.

[ezeminer]

So far I have had a response back from Henry saying the package is 60 € to ship to Mitchell. I have asked about the package size and final list of people, and will update when I have more information.

So I have an updated list of buyers that will be on the order. If you want to know what is in your order you can message me.

Buyers:
bithalo

blazed

bookofnick

digicoinuser

Lincoln6Echo

ezeminer

bigbeninlondon

minerjones

montreal

[Lincoln6Echo]

@ezeminer: Did you get an update from Denarium? They mentioned to begin to ship today...

[ezeminer]

@ezeminer: Did you get an update from Denarium? They mentioned to begin to ship today...

Nothing yet. I sent them a message, will probably hear from them in a day or two.

[ezeminer]

Update: Denrium has told me shipping will begin Friday.

[ezeminer]

Update: Denrium has told me shipping will begin Friday.

They say the first coin (A1) went out Monday March 14th.
I will not be available over the weekend for any updates, so we'll see what happens next week. Just trying to give some sort of update since it has been dead for a little bit.