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Author Topic: Why I have fallen out of love with democracy.  (Read 8513 times)
chickenado
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June 09, 2011, 09:05:43 AM
 #21

Utter bullshit.
Libertarianism is a set of formulas that work great in the minds of (sheltered) geeks, but when it comes to reality... there's this easily observable gradient... and it's easy to see that the societies that do best (by far) are socialist democracies and the ones that do worst are the ones with the most "Libertarian" approach to managing society.

Not sure about that. Scandinavia is doing pretty well, but so are Australia and Hong Kong, which are more on the libertarian end of the scale.

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The reason the democracy you're living in is corrupted is because corporate money has gotten into campaign financing. These same corporations have spent fucking billions on a 30 year propaganda war... and created this mini-army of warped ideologues convinced (in their minds) that the path to freedom is by getting rid of all corporate regulation and letting corporations run society. The reason that the US now has as many people in prison as the soviets did in the Gulag era is not because you have democracy, it's because you are losing it.  

And what has allowed corporate money to corrupt democracy? The fact that it lacks accountability. That is exactly the point  I was trying to make in my first post.  If there was a price to breaking election promises or misrepresenting voters this would never have happened in the first place.

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Just because it works in your mind, doesn't mean it works.

Ever noticed that The Austrian school is willfully, by definition, empirical-evidence-agnostic? Think that there might be a reason for that? It's because it only works in theory.

Perfect anarchy is an ideal that can never be attained in the messy real world, just like perfect democracy has never been attained.

But that does not mean we can't achieve a practical approximation to perfect anarchy.

To me, the bitcoin economy is empirical evidence of anarchy working.  That was also the point I was trying to make in my first post.

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Democracy is not "Cheap", people died for it... and are still dying for it (all over the middle-east) now. In the 20th Century, non-democratic governments rounded up and murdered 160 million of their own people. And you sit there in the comfort of the freedom that has been provided to you by the blood of of those that went before, and theorise that some system where people with the most money have the most power might be best.

And I applaud those people.  However, they were fundamentally fighting against tyrrany, not for democracy. Democracy is of course vastly superior to the systems it replaced, and that was good enough for those people.  But that doesn't mean we can't do better.

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The purpose of democracy is to provide a democratically accountable means of controlling a monopoly on violence.

Except it isn't accountable. Nothing stops a government from becoming corrupt once it is elected. It's an extremely fragile system.  

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Anything else is a type of protection-racket. Anyone who thinks that they can dispense with this just isn't thinking. We've seen what happens when societies fall apart - local protection rackets spring up. What are you going to do when a local gang moves into your house? Ostracise them?

Shoot at them? Organise a rival gang?

As I said, perfect anarchy might not be attainable.  
 
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I can't believe the stupidity... the ignorance, of people who look at the plutocracy that they've found themselves in and decide "democracy isn't working. What we need is a system where there are no constraints on capital".

In democracy, sociopaths and populists end up in power because most voters put very little effort into researching who they are voting for.  This is no surprise, because voters have no incentive for this, financial or otherwise.

Plutocracy has its flaws too, but in a free market, people who make a lot of money tend to be people who create value for society. There are exceptions of course.  

I would rather have those people in power, with a few bad apples mixed in, than sociopaths in power, with a few well-intentioned idealists mixed in.


Also, I would argue that in plutocracy, the common man has more democratic power over the elites than in democracy itself.  "Dollar voting" is felt instantly by a service provider being a jerk.  Ballot voters, on the other hand, are powerless once their vote is cast. When a politician becomes corrupt after that, they have to wait 4 years to express their dismay.
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June 09, 2011, 03:09:41 PM
 #22

Perfect anarchy is an ideal that can never be attained in the messy real world, just like perfect democracy has never been attained.

But that does not mean we can't achieve a practical approximation to perfect anarchy.

To me, the bitcoin economy is empirical evidence of anarchy working.  That was also the point I was trying to make in my first post.

Practical anarchy FTW.  I like to call myself a "pragmatist" anarchist.

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June 09, 2011, 04:27:43 PM
 #23

Government is a rather recent invention on the human time scale. Humans began using government as a system of control. It benefits few people but most people support it. Governments are really just big mafias. Governments don't create civilisation. Civilisation and governments don't mix. At the very least governments are a stage of civilisation before humans eventually create a society where we deal with each other freely, voluntarily and for our own selfish but rational desires.

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June 10, 2011, 05:25:53 AM
 #24

In the end, freedom means being able to say "no" and act upon your declension. Democracies give the illusion of freedom by giving a person the "right" to say no (usually only on a small scale, or with the proper permit), but show themselves false on that point by not recognizing a person's right to act upon his conviction. In the end, the individual must go the way of the herd, or be trampled, no matter how loudly he protests.

Welcome to sanity, friend.

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alexandre
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June 11, 2011, 01:52:22 AM
 #25

Aleister Crowley on Democracy:

 “The principle of popular election is a fatal folly; its results are visible in every so-called democracy. The elected man is always the mediocrity; he is the safe man, the sound man, the man who displeases the majority less than any other; and therefore never the genius, the man of progress and illumination."

Just look at the politicians we vote for. They know they will never get re-elected if they cause too many waves, so "change" is never going to happen so long as this country is split in two. "Liberal"/Democrat and "Conservative"/Republican is a false dichotomy. There are other options.

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June 11, 2011, 04:47:58 AM
 #26

Chinese autocracy is cheap. That's how China is affording such radical change among people. Democracy requires autonomous individuals.

Autonomy, individuals experimenting at different stages and expertise to achieve maturity and proficiency, is a luxury only select personnel of developed country can afford.

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June 11, 2011, 06:08:30 AM
 #27

"What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty".

- Hans-Hermann Hoppe

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June 11, 2011, 07:09:54 PM
 #28

At the end of the day democracy is an iteration of the human will, sure democracy might not be the solution, but to say there will ever be a definitive solution is folly. Eventually democracy will be supplanted by something. But I would hope democracy will evolve in fits and starts rather than a violent schism.
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June 11, 2011, 09:13:34 PM
 #29

At the end of the day democracy is an iteration of the human will, sure democracy might not be the solution, but to say there will ever be a definitive solution is folly. Eventually democracy will be supplanted by something. But I would hope democracy will evolve in fits and starts rather than a violent schism.

Keep hoping. According to history democracies always devores itself, ending in chaos and violence.
Findeton
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June 11, 2011, 11:43:05 PM
 #30

You haven't experienced democracy yet. Democracy is NOT what we have.

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Basiley
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June 12, 2011, 12:03:12 AM
 #31

democracy is Myth, like ALL other famous/popular politologic/sociologic concepts, used/[tried to]implemented &etc.
implementation meaning, ppl hearts meaning, not ideas/flags/books.
different shools os social/political science explain it in different Words, but conclusion are SAME: all basic concepts are virtual and more similar, than different, relying only in bitching/PR focus in desperate attempts  to promote that BS.
implementation matter, ideas was NOT.
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June 12, 2011, 12:05:14 AM
 #32

As far as I'm concerned, democracy always leaves a minority that is left to the whims and desires of the majority. Democracy is hardly a virtue.
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June 12, 2011, 07:06:52 AM
 #33

As far as I'm concerned, democracy always leaves a minority that is left to the whims and desires of the majority. Democracy is hardly a virtue.
It's better than the other way around, one might say... I say that!

Sure you will find yourself most of the times in the majority, but would you want to live in a regime where the minority decides for the majority at all times?
The Script
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June 12, 2011, 10:28:51 AM
 #34



Atlas, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

You're getting to be as bad as Kiba.   ;-)
Basiley
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June 13, 2011, 03:37:59 AM
 #35

Voting evasion isn't work. way its intended.
actually its promotion, interesting tool, itself.
watch to SA states - which way a politic/apathetic/tolerant population can drive country.
freespirit
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June 13, 2011, 05:30:53 AM
 #36

We need to get rid of the notion of universal suffrage and "representative democracy" in its present form (MPs/Congressmen/etc being "universal representatives")). The democracy itself is not a bad thing, the problem is the rigidness of its present form. Read my posts in the taxation thread for details: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14819.0;all
Hopefully a bitcoin-based/like technology will rectify this.
niemivh
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June 13, 2011, 06:07:02 AM
 #37

I have come to realise that democracy has a fundamental flaw:

Democracy is cheap.

The voter isn't accountable to the politician and the politician isn't accountable to the voter.

If you vote for a really stupid policy that is going to ruin other people's lives needlessly, you are not liable to compensate them.  Somebody else will always pick up the bill.

On the other side of the coin, votes create no obligations to politicians. If they fail to keep their end of the bargain, there are no or few personal consequences for them.  
 

Being part of the Bitcoin community was the final straw.

Here, if you feel strongly about an issue you don't vote for it. You offer a bounty.

If you are dishonest or make a stupid choice, you pay with your money and reputation.  

If someone is a jerk, you don't complain ineffectually. You ostracize them.

If you make a risky investment, and it tanks, you suck it up and don't whine for someone to bail you out.

And so on...

The Bitcoin community has a beautiful way of putting its money where its mouth is.  It has proven to me that superior alternatives to democracy really can work in practice.


When I was younger I had a love affair with the concept of democracy. (brainwashed by school I guess)

When I got older I felt that democracy was a necessary evil.

Now I think it is just evil.

Democracy will never work, except perhaps on a very local scale. It's time for society to move on.    

Now I feel very lonely. I see everyone around me still worshipping democracy like a religion.  I hope Bitcoin will make them change their mind too.

Democracy is like communism: it doesn't exist.  Every democracy I'm historically aware of has greater forces at work inside the system. 

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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June 13, 2011, 12:25:18 PM
 #38

Democracy is like communism: it doesn't exist.  Every democracy I'm historically aware of has greater forces at work inside the system. 
That's because most people don't care (they barely make it to the voting booths, we have like 60-70% voting representations, and those that care, prefer cold hard cash payments Smiley
Basiley
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June 13, 2011, 01:40:58 PM
 #39

different political/social science shools have different meaning/vision/understanding of both "democracy" and "society" as well as "mankind".
but that's not about definitions, flags, pr/bs, posters, anymore, its all about what EXACTLY you Should do in each case.
note: "Democracy" definition have roots in same circles[geographically/politically/socially], as which belongs to "socialism", "libertarism".
that's why anyone should be careful with projecting/dreaming: butchers gonna bitch, haters gonna hate, but some people can take this BS/nonsense seriously and whole nations/continents suffer from such [devastating/apocalyptic]"experiments".
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June 13, 2011, 02:55:06 PM
 #40

As far as I'm concerned, democracy always leaves a minority that is left to the whims and desires of the majority. Democracy is hardly a virtue.
It's better than the other way around, one might say... I say that!

Sure you will find yourself most of the times in the majority, but would you want to live in a regime where the minority decides for the majority at all times?
I prefer a society where people can act on their own individual desires and achieve them through their own virtues, not others by slavery.
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