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Author Topic: Why I have fallen out of love with democracy.  (Read 8520 times)
chickenado
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June 05, 2011, 02:59:36 PM
 #1

I have come to realise that democracy has a fundamental flaw:

Democracy is cheap.

The voter isn't accountable to the politician and the politician isn't accountable to the voter.

If you vote for a really stupid policy that is going to ruin other people's lives needlessly, you are not liable to compensate them.  Somebody else will always pick up the bill.

On the other side of the coin, votes create no obligations to politicians. If they fail to keep their end of the bargain, there are no or few personal consequences for them.  
 

Being part of the Bitcoin community was the final straw.

Here, if you feel strongly about an issue you don't vote for it. You offer a bounty.

If you are dishonest or make a stupid choice, you pay with your money and reputation.  

If someone is a jerk, you don't complain ineffectually. You ostracize them.

If you make a risky investment, and it tanks, you suck it up and don't whine for someone to bail you out.

And so on...

The Bitcoin community has a beautiful way of putting its money where its mouth is.  It has proven to me that superior alternatives to democracy really can work in practice.


When I was younger I had a love affair with the concept of democracy. (brainwashed by school I guess)

When I got older I felt that democracy was a necessary evil.

Now I think it is just evil.

Democracy will never work, except perhaps on a very local scale. It's time for society to move on.    

Now I feel very lonely. I see everyone around me still worshipping democracy like a religion.  I hope Bitcoin will make them change their mind too.
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nickwit
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June 05, 2011, 03:07:47 PM
 #2

I don't think you've really thought this through.
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June 05, 2011, 03:38:10 PM
 #3

You are 100% right.

Democracy is just political darwinism. Its a unfair and authoritarian system designed to benefit the political and banking class at the expense of the rest. There is a really good book called "The myth of the rational voter" that I always recomend.
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June 05, 2011, 10:05:46 PM
 #4

(...)
+1

I'd like to see a system where I decide how much money I want to give my government (taxes). And I want to decide what they do with my money.
The only way how politics will work for their people is if the politicians get paid by the people for things they do for the people.

Is there a state theory about this ? Respectively does such a system have a specified name ?

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June 05, 2011, 10:15:43 PM
 #5

I have a solution for yah, it's called Demarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy

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June 05, 2011, 11:37:35 PM
 #6

Utter bullshit.

Libertarianism is a set of formulas that work great in the minds of (sheltered) geeks, but when it comes to reality... there's this easily observable gradient... and it's easy to see that the societies that do best (by far) are socialist democracies and the ones that do worst are the ones with the most "Libertarian" approach to managing society.

The reason the democracy you're living in is corrupted is because corporate money has gotten into campaign financing. These same corporations have spent fucking billions on a 30 year propaganda war... and created this mini-army of warped ideologues convinced (in their minds) that the path to freedom is by getting rid of all corporate regulation and letting corporations run society. The reason that the US now has as many people in prison as the soviets did in the Gulag era is not because you have democracy, it's because you are losing it. 

Just because it works in your mind, doesn't mean it works.

Ever noticed that The Austrian school is willfully, by definition, empirical-evidence-agnostic? Think that there might be a reason for that? It's because it only works in theory.

Democracy is not "Cheap", people died for it... and are still dying for it (all over the middle-east) now. In the 20th Century, non-democratic governments rounded up and murdered 160 million of their own people. And you sit there in the comfort of the freedom that has been provided to you by the blood of of those that went before, and theorise that some system where people with the most money have the most power might be best.

The purpose of democracy is to provide a democratically accountable means of controlling a monopoly on violence. Anything else is a type of protection-racket. Anyone who thinks that they can dispense with this just isn't thinking. We've seen what happens when societies fall apart - local protection rackets spring up. What are you going to do when a local gang moves into your house? Ostracise them?

Shoot at them? Organise a rival gang?

I can't believe the stupidity... the ignorance, of people who look at the plutocracy that they've found themselves in and decide "democracy isn't working. What we need is a system where there are no constraints on capital".


Oh, and by the way,

"Responsibility" is not "looking after yourself". Only fucking children think this. "Personal-Responsibility" is an infantile concept.
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June 06, 2011, 12:38:39 AM
 #7

Utter bullshit.

Libertarianism is a set of formulas that work great in the minds of (sheltered) geeks, but when it comes to reality... there's this easily observable gradient... and it's easy to see that the societies that do best (by far) are socialist democracies and the ones that do worst are the ones with the most "Libertarian" approach to managing society.

The reason the democracy you're living in is corrupted is because corporate money has gotten into campaign financing. These same corporations have spent fucking billions on a 30 year propaganda war... and created this mini-army of warped ideologues convinced (in their minds) that the path to freedom is by getting rid of all corporate regulation and letting corporations run society. The reason that the US now has as many people in prison as the soviets did in the Gulag era is not because you have democracy, it's because you are losing it. 

Just because it works in your mind, doesn't mean it works.

Ever noticed that The Austrian school is willfully, by definition, empirical-evidence-agnostic? Think that there might be a reason for that? It's because it only works in theory.

Democracy is not "Cheap", people died for it... and are still dying for it (all over the middle-east) now. In the 20th Century, non-democratic governments rounded up and murdered 160 million of their own people. And you sit there in the comfort of the freedom that has been provided to you by the blood of of those that went before, and theorise that some system where people with the most money have the most power might be best.

The purpose of democracy is to provide a democratically accountable means of controlling a monopoly on violence. Anything else is a type of protection-racket. Anyone who thinks that they can dispense with this just isn't thinking. We've seen what happens when societies fall apart - local protection rackets spring up. What are you going to do when a local gang moves into your house? Ostracise them?

Shoot at them? Organise a rival gang?

I can't believe the stupidity... the ignorance, of people who look at the plutocracy that they've found themselves in and decide "democracy isn't working. What we need is a system where there are no constraints on capital".


Oh, and by the way,

"Responsibility" is not "looking after yourself". Only fucking children think this. "Personal-Responsibility" is an infantile concept.

Dude I think you've been sucking on the government teat too long.  I'm betting you went to some government endorsed institution for school too.  The USA is the most powerful nation in the world for a reason, because it's (was) the land of the free.  It's those socialist ideas that are killing it today.

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grue
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June 06, 2011, 12:51:29 AM
 #8

Dude I think you've been sucking on the government teat too long.  I'm betting you went to some government endorsed institution for school too.  The USA is the most powerful nation in the world for a reason, because it's (was) the land of the free.  It's those socialist ideas that are killing it today.
1. user presents opposing side, does a good job
2. topic starter says his argument is invalid because he is the opposition

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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Bazil
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June 06, 2011, 01:07:57 AM
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1. user presents opposing side, does a good job
2. topic starter says his argument is invalid because he is the opposition

Huh?  The topic starter hasn't made a post in here since he started the topic.  I provided a solution to the corruption in my first post in this thread.  Ironically one that is usually favored by libertarian types.  More government doesn't solve the government corruption problem.  Also Socialist Democracies aren't free.

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grue
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June 06, 2011, 01:26:05 AM
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1. user presents opposing side, does a good job
2. topic starter says his argument is invalid because he is the opposition

Huh?  The topic starter hasn't made a post in here since he started the topic.  I provided a solution to the corruption in my first post in this thread.  Ironically one that is usually favored by libertarian types.  More government doesn't solve the government corruption problem.  Also Socialist Democracies aren't free.
whoops. got the two users confused.  Embarrassed

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hugolp
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June 06, 2011, 06:45:28 AM
 #11

Dude I think you've been sucking on the government teat too long.  I'm betting you went to some government endorsed institution for school too.  The USA is the most powerful nation in the world for a reason, because it's (was) the land of the free.  It's those socialist ideas that are killing it today.
1. user presents opposing side, does a good job
2. topic starter says his argument is invalid because he is the opposition

Makes a good point?  Huh

So now a bunch of falacies are good points? Come on.

But Ill bite:

Quote
Utter bullshit.

Libertarianism is a set of formulas that work great in the minds of (sheltered) geeks,

By now anyone should see that this person is dishonest (or completely indoctrinated) because this ad-hominenm attack is the first thing he does. Libertarians are a bunch of geeks with no friends and no real life and bla bla bla... This is the level of discussion? Really?

Quote
but when it comes to reality... there's this easily observable gradient... and it's easy to see that the societies that do best (by far) are socialist democracies and the ones that do worst are the ones with the most "Libertarian" approach to managing society.

Now he makes a false asertion. He obviously does not point out any example because he can not.

For example, Greece is one of the most social-democrat countries in Europe (government spending increased, teachers and other government employeesget pay a lot more than the general population, the government had and has nationalized banks, etc...) and they are crashing.

Lets take the more extreme example of Somalia. When Somalia had a socialist government they were a lot worse off than they are now in anarchy.

All the real life examples show that the free market produces better results than socialdemocracy. What is seen in reality is that socialdemocracy is corporatism.

EDIT: If you are going to say that Sweden is a socialist country and bla blah blah, let me remind you that Sweden has the corporate tax lower than the USA and the tax for workers way higher than the USA. In fact, neoliberal economists point to Sweden as an example of neoliberalism.

Quote
The reason the democracy you're living in is corrupted is because corporate money has gotten into campaign financing. These same corporations have spent fucking billions on a 30 year propaganda war... and created this mini-army of warped ideologues convinced (in their minds) that the path to freedom is by getting rid of all corporate regulation and letting corporations run society. The reason that the US now has as many people in prison as the soviets did in the Gulag era is not because you have democracy, it's because you are losing it.

The problem with this again is that it does not check with reality. Its a fantasy. Big corporations want MORE regulations and lobby for it. Regulations have been increasing in the USA during each of the last decades (just go and check the government data). You would only think regulations have decreased if you believe the propaganda of the corporate media, that is promoting this false idea. And because there are more regulations big corporations have been able to avoid competition, run wild and fuck the consumer.

There is corruption because there is democracy.

Quote
Just because it works in your mind, doesn't mean it works.

Another ad-hominem showing how arrogant he is, even when he is out of touch with reality.

Quote
Ever noticed that The Austrian school is willfully, by definition, empirical-evidence-agnostic? Think that there might be a reason for that? It's because it only works in theory.

Here he is showing his ignorance. Hayek stated that there is no way to prove a theory 100% right, but there is a easy way to disprove a theory, just show one empirical evidence that proves its wrong. I can show you empirical studies in the austrian tradition, for example: http://www.gmu.edu/depts/rae/archives/VOL14_4_2001/5_keeler.pdf

Quote
Democracy is not "Cheap", people died for it...

People died for dictators and kings too... I guess that is reason enough to defend dictartoships.

Falacy after falacy.

Quote
and are still dying for it (all over the middle-east) now.

People in the middle-east are protesting because the price of food and other basic stuff has skyrocketed. You would only believe its "for democracy" if you are a mindless drone and believe the western corporate media. There is a reason why the corporate media promotes the idea of democracy all the time. And btw, egiptians dont know it but prices are going up in big part due to the action of the actions of the western democracies.

Quote
In the 20th Century, non-democratic governments rounded up and murdered 160 million of their own people. And you sit there in the comfort of the freedom that has been provided to you by the blood of of those that went before, and theorise that some system where people with the most money have the most power might be best.

I guess a National Socialists could always defend Hitler saying that Stalin killed a lot more poeple.

Falacy after falacy.

Also, we have stated that democracy is a very authoritarian system. If the problem with democracy is that its very authoritarian why are you insinuating that we want a even more authoritarian system? Its ridiculous, but it shows that you are not addressing any logical point, just repeating the indoctrination you have received.

Quote
The purpose of democracy is to provide a democratically accountable means of controlling a monopoly on violence.

This is obviously an impossiblity, and therefore a beautiful lie so you accept the system. Democracy is designed to take the power away from the people for the political class and their buddies (big bankers and big industrialists).

This is the problem with indoctrinated people. They place their hopes in a democratic guy, the guy does what any democratic leader does, abuse the peole, they complain its not real democracy. They place their hopes in a new leader that again does what any democractic leader does, abuse the people, and complain again its not real democracy. They place their hopes in a new leader... I think you get the picture.

Quote
Anything else is a type of protection-racket. Anyone who thinks that they can dispense with this just isn't thinking. We've seen what happens when societies fall apart - local protection rackets spring up. What are you going to do when a local gang moves into your house? Ostracise them?

Be afraid, be very afraid, without democracy dinosaurs will eat your children!!

Quote
Shoot at them? Organise a rival gang?

Be afraid, be very afraid!!! (I think Bush is looking for you to hire you as propagandists).

Quote
I can't believe the stupidity... the ignorance, of people who look at the plutocracy that they've found themselves in and decide "democracy isn't working. What we need is a system where there are no constraints on capital".

And there you go. The childish believe that politicians are looking for you and will restrict big companies. They dont know how to restrict big companies, but they dont even want to. The political power always benefits the people with more money and more capital, allowing them to avoid competition with regulations, and fuck the consumer.

Quote
Oh, and by the way,

"Responsibility" is not "looking after yourself". Only fucking children think this. "Personal-Responsibility" is an infantile concept.

And ending with an ad-hominem. Bravo!

Honestly, how anyone can consider this rational thiking is beyond me.
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June 06, 2011, 07:34:20 PM
 #12

Being part of the Bitcoin community was the final straw.

Here, if you feel strongly about an issue you don't vote for it. You offer a bounty.

If you are dishonest or make a stupid choice, you pay with your money and reputation.  

If someone is a jerk, you don't complain ineffectually. You ostracize them.

If you make a risky investment, and it tanks, you suck it up and don't whine for someone to bail you out.

And so on...

The Bitcoin community has a beautiful way of putting its money where its mouth is.  It has proven to me that superior alternatives to democracy really can work in practice.

Bitcoin males Democracy obsolete Smiley

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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June 06, 2011, 07:38:54 PM
 #13

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June 07, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
 #14

There are only different shades of right and wrong put together in entropy which evolve the ever changing political system.
I believe that we wont find the right answer until humans (or what ever group of persons that interact with each other) grow up and actually understand what is going on... or until we all acknowledges the true evil nature of semantics.
Until then the internet will keep getting filled with futile discussions, like this one, forming another entropy that will hopefully help our cause, or not

Sometimes its almost like reading about someone having an argument over a banana being either yellow or bent.

Or maybe its me just staying up too late  Huh

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June 07, 2011, 04:59:55 PM
 #15

If you vote for a really stupid policy that is going to ruin other people's lives needlessly, you are not liable to compensate them.  
What if there are no stupid policies? As in, no law gets passed until all experts agree on the compromise and the deciding bodies can be veto-ed by the President of a country in case of conflict of interest with the people at large? Do you still have that problem?

Would experts in the field that the law applies to, fix the problem you describe with stupid people voting for money-grabbing laws pushed by large economic agents bribing politicians?
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June 07, 2011, 05:23:54 PM
 #16

If you vote for a really stupid policy that is going to ruin other people's lives needlessly, you are not liable to compensate them.  
What if there are no stupid policies? As in, no law gets passed until all experts agree on the compromise and the deciding bodies can be veto-ed by the President of a country in case of conflict of interest with the people at large? Do you still have that problem?

Would experts in the field that the law applies to, fix the problem you describe with stupid people voting for money-grabbing laws pushed by large economic agents bribing politicians?

Why do you think "experts" know what they are doing and/or they wont be corrupted?
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June 07, 2011, 08:47:02 PM
 #17

I hate it when people refer to the US as a democracy.

It's a REPUBLIC.  It is NOT a democracy.  We elect people to represent us, and that is the very definition of a republic government.
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June 07, 2011, 10:13:07 PM
 #18

Why do you think "experts" know what they are doing and/or they wont be corrupted?
Experts work with data instead of popularity. People can validate data, people can't really validate popularity. Tainted experts will have no reputation and nobody will take them into account. Politicians have reputation from specific supporters regardless of their actions and ideas. An expert will provide factual arguments to sustain an idea, a politician will just popularize public consensus or hidden agendas. There is a difference between what people need and what people want. There is a difference between a better future and a better hope. Just saying...
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June 08, 2011, 04:41:51 AM
 #19

Why do you think "experts" know what they are doing and/or they wont be corrupted?
Experts work with data instead of popularity. People can validate data, people can't really validate popularity. Tainted experts will have no reputation and nobody will take them into account. Politicians have reputation from specific supporters regardless of their actions and ideas. An expert will provide factual arguments to sustain an idea, a politician will just popularize public consensus or hidden agendas. There is a difference between what people need and what people want. There is a difference between a better future and a better hope. Just saying...

So you think "experts" are never wrong? And you think people can judge the arguments of the "experts"? So if I explain to you a problem regarding some electronic engineer regulation you are going to be able to know if I am cheating you or not? You think Joe Sixpack has the knowledge to decide between the arguments of two experts?
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June 08, 2011, 08:08:54 AM
 #20

So you think "experts" are never wrong?
I did not say that. It is always possible, even for ALL experts to be wrong, in part or together.

So if I explain to you a problem regarding some electronic engineer regulation you are going to be able to know if I am cheating you or not? You think Joe Sixpack has the knowledge to decide between the arguments of two experts?
Experts can debate eachother, propose standing alternatives on which you can vote (which let's face it, it's better than fucky-assy-maky-feely-goody politician offers) which is already a plus point, and if you are smart enough you can actually tell whom is right and have rational arguments with your peers instead of just taking sides with ignorant opinions (another plus). As a practical example, compare what city mayors with infrastructure redesigns made for a city, as opposed to just popular political picks.

Joe Sixpack is still fucked, but at least now he can pick between two sound reformative platforms instead of just two bribed up sock-puppets.
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