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Author Topic: Random selection of the representants.  (Read 4910 times)
glub0x (OP)
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November 10, 2012, 12:54:21 AM
Last edit: November 10, 2012, 01:50:01 AM by glub0x
 #1

Hello, i'm not american (Sorry for my bad english) but i'm curious to have opinion of others about a subject i find intresting.

If this has already been debated ( probable) please refer e to the thread, i do not know what to search for...
I always had a problem with elections because

1) REPRESENTATION                     : i never feel like voting for someone who represent me.
2) CORRUPTION/STRATEGY            : They keep lying as this apear to be a good strategy to be elected. As a general thing, Strategy looks like a key point on election. Just like in a war. They want to be elected, re elected ect (or their political faction) this is a big corruption of the rôle they should play ...
3) SUPERFICIALITY                       : after voting you are powerless. You might vote for such a big bad ass, just like i gave a few btc to nefario because glbse looks like working ... voting is a one shot game that left you powerless.
4) GRANULARITY                          : I feel like giving more power than i am willing to. This problem is still hard to think of for me, maybe it s just a consequence of point 2...

So i do not vote very often.
Then i understand that what i do not like is aristocracy, wich is i think the root of those problems. For me there is a big contradiction by saying that we are in democracy and having 10% of women in the parliament for example.
I do not see our "modern democracy" so far from the chinese system.  Yes we do vote, no we are not represented.

A few time ago i read about this idea of random representant.
So i keep thinking about the idea of a new parliament chamber.
1) This chamber would have X representant selected RANDOMLY (X would have to be big enough to represent the country).
2) Those representants would be selected every, lets say 2 month. So the chamber changes its members VERY REGULARY. To maintain stability the representant would be changed like 12% per week (so that in 2 month every body has changed without brutal shift)
3) The representant can refuse to participe for any reason. They cannot be fired or anything because of this task. They wil receive a minimum salary for this task


Point 1 would solve the REPRESENTATION problem, while point 2 solves the STRATEGY and SUPERFICIALITY.
CORRUPTION is left half solved as those representant would not seek reelection but they can still be influenced/ helped by lobbys... The rotation of point 2 will probably limit the damages of any external corruption.
point 3 is important to keep ppl free. Probably because of point 3 ( minimum salary/ possibility to refuse) the poor might be more represented than the rich. Maybe not so bad?


This is just some kind of naïves thinks on the subject. Do you feel bad too when you go vote?

[EDIT] This is inspired about a few actual french thinkers, mainly Etienne Chouard

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November 10, 2012, 08:10:55 PM
 #2

Why do you want a gang of thugs to rob you and threaten you with violence?
glub0x (OP)
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November 10, 2012, 11:14:57 PM
 #3

Kind of like jury duty? It's an interesting idea, though I guess you might need to refine it a bit if you want to sell it to a large audience.
Yes the jury is the closest thing i know in application at a wide scale.
I guess some nice diagram would help. If i have courage i ll do it...

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November 11, 2012, 01:33:45 AM
 #4

Why do you want a gang of thugs to rob you and threaten you with violence?

I feel like this is the most important and key aspect of the whole conversation.  If the goal of voting is to empower such gang of thugs (it is), then the conversation should be about removing the need for these thugs, rather than finding a new way to select new thugs for the gang.
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November 11, 2012, 02:46:36 AM
 #5

Why do you want a gang of thugs to rob you and threaten you with violence?

I feel like this is the most important and key aspect of the whole conversation.  If the goal of voting is to empower such gang of thugs (it is), then the conversation should be about removing the need for these thugs, rather than finding a new way to select new thugs for the gang.

That said, a rapid and random shuffling of the thugs would keep them from doing much damage.

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November 11, 2012, 05:56:03 AM
 #6

Why the cynical name-calling? The constant stream of slander directed at governments seems like
a) an inability to face reality that governments are here to stay, and
b) a rejection of that little bit of community responsibility to help make sure governments are not in fact thuggish or gang-like.

Your consistent defense of the government coercion paradigm seems like:
a) Defeatism and
b) a seriously bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.

We're just calling it like it is. They're the mafia with a flag.

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Rudd-O
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November 11, 2012, 09:21:37 AM
 #7

Why the cynical name-calling? The constant stream of slander directed at governments

TIL: I never knew truth could be "slanderous".
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November 11, 2012, 09:22:33 AM
 #8

2) Direct democracy results in superior communication between the classes.

"Communication" aka "give me free money or else someone will put you in a cage".

Somebody answer the phone!
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November 11, 2012, 10:19:37 AM
 #9

This is a good concept and I always thought it might help resist corruption. The problem with it I figure tho, is it will turn from a back door bribery game to an in your face violence and killing opposition kind of game as randomly selected representatives act against what they know to be existing powerful interests. Sooner or later people will begin to not want to participate and or will be coerced into not changing the status quo.
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November 12, 2012, 12:33:08 AM
 #10

You're not really helping your case.

I don't know what you mean by "your case".  As far as I remember, I came back to this thread and you were accusing certain people of "cynical name-calling" -- off-topic for this thread -- when they tell the truth.

Now, in case you somehow managed to post without reading what we're talking about here: what we're saying here is that democracy is lousy.  Having accepted that premise, some of us are proposing a better mechanism to select who will have maniacal powers, and some of us are saying that we'd better off not giving maniacal powers to anyone at all.

That is the topic of this thread.

If you want to stick to the topic, your contributions are welcome.  IF instead you just barged in to yell "CYNICAL NAMECALLERS DERP", then please use the door and remove yourself from here.

Thanks!  :-)
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November 12, 2012, 12:40:01 AM
 #11

Now, steering this convo back on topic.

Myrkul, I fully agree with you.  The damage that people in power make would be indeed significantly limited if the people who get to be in power were fully randomized.  That alone would have the impact of diminishing the amount of good-for-nothing-but-lying sociopaths in power, since we wouldn't be doing a stupid ritual to select the best liars every X years.
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November 12, 2012, 09:19:33 AM
 #12

[...]

Thanks!  :-)

Go fuck yourself. You're the one attempting to hijack somebody else's thread with your AnCrap bullshit. Your behaviour suggests that in fact you are the "gang of thugs".

Hahaha.  Did anyone else read this raging, intolerant, abusive reply and was instantly reminded of the following GIF?


Blahblahblah seems to have some anger management issues.  I've seen him constantly insulting and hurling abuse at people who think differently from him -- quite a lot of his participation in this forum consists on that.  He seems to have a finely honed bigotry for people who express views different from him, ranging from calling his targets "tards and bullshitters" to telling them "go fuck yourself".  I wish some of us could help him adjust his reactions to new ideas, but clearly he's not in an emotional condition or state that lends itself to listening calmly.

In short: it appears that blahblahblah has chosen this forum to be his pet playground where he angrily throws sand at everyone, without consequences for him, in pure Internet Brave fashion.

He is now on my ignore list.  I encourage everyone else who appreciates polite conversation not punctuated by abusive tirades to just ignore him as well (as I'm sure quite a few people already did).

Have a great day!  :-)
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November 12, 2012, 09:22:24 AM
 #13

Now, going back to topic.  So, what other benefits does random selection of thugs have over electing liars?
myrkul
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November 12, 2012, 03:04:16 PM
 #14

[...]

Thanks!  :-)

Go fuck yourself. You're the one attempting to hijack somebody else's thread with your AnCrap bullshit. Your behaviour suggests that in fact you are the "gang of thugs".

What did I say? Stockholm Syndrome.

Quote
The combination of "Stockholm Syndrome" and "cognitive dissonance" produces a victim who firmly believes the relationship is not only acceptable, but also desperately needed for their survival. The victim feels they would mentally collapse if the relationship ended. In long-term relationships, the victims have invested everything and placed "all their eggs in one basket". The relationship now decides their level of self-esteem, self-worth, and emotional health.

For reasons described above, the victim feels family and friends are a threat to the relationship and eventually to their personal health and existence. The more family/friends protest the controlling and abusive nature of the relationship, the more the victim develops cognitive dissonance and becomes defensive.

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November 12, 2012, 07:01:48 PM
 #15

Now, going back to topic.  So, what other benefits does random selection of thugs have over electing liars?

This is a great idea (OP), one championed by the famous Democritus.  I have not found that his government "by the people" had reference to what we call "elections".   

Random selection has a lot of advantages.  Random sampling is a great way to sample an unknown distribution (e.g. political opinion).
Consider for example evaluation of an integral of y=f(x) over a range dx with the monte carlo technique with k sampling points.  Compare that to evaluating the integral by taking Mean(floor(y))*dx.  You don't need to get k very large before the monte carlo integral is most likely way better.

The logisitics and corruptibility behind each method (election or random) are not simple however and the details here are probably most important.  There are of course different ways to run an election or a random sampling, I am encouraged by new ideas in these ventures.   

   

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November 12, 2012, 07:46:29 PM
 #16

[...]

Thanks!  :-)

Go fuck yourself. You're the one attempting to hijack somebody else's thread with your AnCrap bullshit. Your behaviour suggests that in fact you are the "gang of thugs".

What did I say? Stockholm Syndrome.

Quote
The combination of "Stockholm Syndrome" and "cognitive dissonance" produces a victim who firmly believes the relationship is not only acceptable, but also desperately needed for their survival. The victim feels they would mentally collapse if the relationship ended. In long-term relationships, the victims have invested everything and placed "all their eggs in one basket". The relationship now decides their level of self-esteem, self-worth, and emotional health.

For reasons described above, the victim feels family and friends are a threat to the relationship and eventually to their personal health and existence. The more family/friends protest the controlling and abusive nature of the relationship, the more the victim develops cognitive dissonance and becomes defensive.

Bingo, 100%.
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November 12, 2012, 07:47:28 PM
 #17

The logisitics and corruptibility behind each method (election or random) are not simple however and the details here are probably most important.  There are of course different ways to run an election or a random sampling, I am encouraged by new ideas in these ventures.   

Yah, good point.  Our good overlord Stalin once said that it's not the winner of the popular vote who wins the elections... it's the one who counts the votes... and I guess this applies to random sampling as well.
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November 12, 2012, 08:14:02 PM
 #18

Now, going back to topic...

Kind of like jury duty? It's an interesting idea, though I guess you might need to refine it a bit if you want to sell it to a large audience.
Yes the jury is the closest thing i know in application at a wide scale.
I guess some nice diagram would help. If i have courage i ll do it...

I wouldn't look for answers from such extreme alternative political systems as Anarcho-Capitalism though.

From the Wikipedia:
Quote
Moral criticisms

Some critics argue that anarcho-capitalism is an inherent miscarriage of justice because it turns justice into a commodity, thereby conflating justice with economic power. Another argument is that private defense and court firms would tend to represent the interests of those who pay them enough.[1] Many supporters of the non-aggression principle argue that anarcho-capitalism is immoral. They argue that it implies that the non-aggression principle is optional because the enforcement of laws is open to competition.

Justice in general is pretty much a crippling weakness of AnCap. Under such a system, they would oppose all the bureaucracy and "brutal force" necessary to organise the musical chairs of anything that resembles a jury system. Not to mention that anything overseeing a jury, such as public courts, would be absolutely out of the question.

Although some AnCap supporters might be curious about the merits of a 'musical chairs' revolving democracy, I suspect they might have a lot of trouble tolerating 'forced participation'. I suspect many of them are die-hard Objectivists who took Rand very seriously, and they would be disgusted by the idea of "personal sacrifice" for some common benefit. To them it resembles Communism, and since they have absolutely no idea about Communism, they see it lurking behind every corner. Cheesy
Is there justice today?  Police arriving at a murder seen does not prevent it from happening.  Here's a concept though:

Every human has a consciousness, which are one of the same.  Every human is a good person, deep down.  People do 'bad' things, like rape, murder, theft, because it is their best option, from their perspective.  The only way to prevent these occurrences is to change their perspective, to get them more in tune with love (consciousness).  People whom harm others have lack of control over their ego, this is noticeably evident in many child homicide cases, where the child uses a form of pharmaceutical that negatively increases their ego, often antidepressants.

So how do you instate justice?  Do you kill the murder's closest loved one to make it fair?  If so, where does the cycle of violence end?

Or is it possible nature has the full capacity to serve justice?  We know nature is an equilibrium of everything, it's perfect, naturally.  What if, rather than reacting with more violence, we allow karma to govern disputes and injustices?  What if we work at solving disputes from the source, ego?  We're all the same person after all, there's no reason we should disagree other than lack of understanding or personal opinion.

The universe has created a perfect system of life, as comfortable as it may seem to have an army out to protect you, any bit of control, power or violence disrupts nature.  There's no enemy to fight, we're all together, as humanity.  The only way to create a society of peace and justice is to increase the awareness of your neighbors, by spreading the understanding that acting out of ego (greed, hate, power, control, violence) is never justifiable and always an unwise decision.

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November 12, 2012, 08:18:19 PM
 #19

Having seen people being destroyed by child abuse, I am positive that people are good by default and they only get dedtroysd by abuse so I agree with that.
myrkul
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November 12, 2012, 09:45:07 PM
 #20

I wouldn't look for answers from such extreme alternative political systems as Anarcho-Capitalism though.

From the Wikipedia:
Quote
Moral criticisms

Some critics argue that anarcho-capitalism is an inherent miscarriage of justice because it turns justice into a commodity, thereby conflating justice with economic power. Another argument is that private defense and court firms would tend to represent the interests of those who pay them enough.[1] Many supporters of the non-aggression principle argue that anarcho-capitalism is immoral. They argue that it implies that the non-aggression principle is optional because the enforcement of laws is open to competition.

Justice in general is pretty much a crippling weakness of AnCap.
Is there justice today?  Police arriving at a murder scene do not prevent it from happening.  
Indeed. AnCap justice system would likely work like this:
You're rich, I'm poor (relatively speaking). You commit a crime against me, say, assault. In order to hear the case, we each select an arbitrator. You have more money, so you can afford to pay your arbitrator more than I can. If you're allowed to set the costs of the proceedings, you may be able to push me out simply by forcing the costs beyond what I can pay. So I won't accept your arbitrator. You probably won't accept my arbitrator, either, since he's cheaper, and will probably be on "my" side. So what we do is we both hire those arbitrators, and they pick a third, whom we can reasonably assume will be neutral.

But that's the ad hoc solution. Much more likely, we'll each already have arbitrators picked out via our defense agencies, much like we now select our doctors through our insurance plans. Who knows, they might even be the same guy, or at least the same firm.

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