I wrote an intro to bitcoins. Want you opinions on it.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Hi guys. I have a very small VPN service I offer to my college mates. I introduced bitcoin payment and I raised alot of eye brows so I wrote them a small introduction. Just the info they needed to get the basic ideas. I just want your opinions on it. Thanks ^_^. So here it is:

Upon reading the title of your thread, my first reaction was to pen a post stating that I have not, nor will not, read it, due to the one misspelling in said title. I simply felt that this is just another train wreck.

But I changed my mind and opted to read, thus giving the author the benefit of the doubt. But, lo and behold, I was immediately met with, "Hi guys." I almost stopped right there, but continued reading to only learn that the author is in college.

Now, I ain't no wordsmith, and surely this sentence proves that, but really!

Here's how you could have obtained my, and possibly others, attention:

I offer a small VPN to my college mates. When I first mentioned Bitcoin, I raised a few eyebrows, therefore I wrote an introduction to further elicit their emotions, touching upon only the basics.

I look forward to reading your opinions, thanking you in advance.

If something like the above were penned, from that point onward you could have been excused of at least a half dozen grammatical errors. But what comes across to me is a high school student claiming to be enrolled in college providing a VPN.

I hope my opinion was hopefully.

~Bruno K~

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[lophie]

try replacing the word FIAT with
paper money
native currency
national currency
standard currency

think about wording it to be aimed at grade-highschool people that dont have university degree's in economics or computing

Precisely come on guys those are the majority. Speak their language for a change  .

[Phinnaeus Gage]

try replacing the word FIAT with
paper money
native currency
national currency
standard currency

think about wording it to be aimed at grade-highschool people that dont have university degree's in economics or computing

resident evil 6 thier

Precisely come on guys those are the majority. Speak their language for a change  .

there

Now you have me curious, and am going' to read this thread.

[lophie]

LoL I keep getting grilled. Look English is not my first language and I spent less than 12 minutes writing this. The opinions I was looking for are not for the language used but for the approach to Bitcoin. But thanks I really needed the mental spanking to remind myself I am expected to do better.

[lophie]

try replacing the word FIAT with
paper money
native currency
national currency
standard currency

think about wording it to be aimed at grade-highschool people that dont have university degree's in economics or computing

resident evil 6 thier

Precisely come on guys those are the majority. Speak their language for a change  .

there

Now you have me curious, and am going' to read this thread.

LoL I was writing something to a friend. What else is stuck in my paste bin -_-!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

LoL I keep getting grilled. Look English is not my first language and I spent less than 12 minutes writing this. The opinions I was looking for are not for the language used but for the approach to Bitcoin. But thanks I really needed the mental spanking to remind myself I am expected to do better.

Granted, English is not your mother language, but you are penning your introduction in English for English speaking readers. If not, then what is the point of this exercise?

~Bruno K~

[lophie]

To be honest I wrote it in English to avoid writing it in Arabic. There is almost no content whatsoever on the Internet about Bitcoin. So writing about it in Arabic will make me translate some terminologies literally which would need even further explanations. I thought this way I could give them "a thread".

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Bitcoin is erroneously compared in the first paragraph with companies that transfer dollars. That is similar to saying "The Japanese Yen is like Western Union".

Please refer to Satoshi's paper. The title says what exactly? I am not mentioning Bitcoin(s), I am mentioning Bitcoin. The payment system.

And guys thank you for not grilling me over something I wrote while I was bored in calculus class -_-, so mature of you, Oh dear forum dwellers.

How does one become bored in calculus class? Is it either doesn't like it or knows it all? Concerning the maturity aspect, rid these "-_-" (I don't even know what they're called, but believe it's some kind of shorthand for smileys).

All in all, this is an informable thread.

~Bruno K~

[Phinnaeus Gage]

To be honest I wrote it in English to avoid writing it in Arabic. There is almost no content whatsoever on the Internet about Bitcoin. So writing about it in Arabic will make me translate some terminologies literally which would need even further explanations. I thought this way I could give them "a thread".

But you are living here in the states, aren't you? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=62227;sa=statPanel

[lophie]

I enjoy descrete math. I don't hate calculus very much but my software engineering curriculum has 3 courses of calculus. That's just too much calculus for my taste!.

And no I am not in the states I am in Saudi Arabia. A very sandy (<- sorry no pun intended) place far away.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I enjoy descrete math. I don't hate calculus very much but my software engineering curriculum has 3 courses of calculus. That's just too much calculus for my taste!.

And no I am not in the states I am in Saudi Arabia. A very sandy (<- sorry no pun intended) place far away.

You have calculus class in Saudi Arabia on Sunday?

[lophie]

Our weekend days are thursday and friday. crazy right? But you see the Muslims version of the sunday service at the church is on friday noon!

[thoughtfan]

The economics definition is that gold is "commodity money" because gold has intrinsic value (it directly enters the utility function). Money which does not directly enter the utility function is called "fiat money."

No, the economics definition will not change. These are well-defined technical terms.  The terms are referring to how money operates in mathematical models, not to how money operates in the real world.

Thanks for the clarification cunicula.  I stand corrected regarding the economics definition.  I guess without looking into the mathematical differences it is not possible to understand properly what the difference is?

The problem I have is with this matter of 'intrinsic value' or 'utility'.  Bitcoin is useful, not in industry but as an extremely efficient medium of exchange.  Gold has 'utility' in industry but I was persuaded by an argument I read recently that its value grew (prior to its use as a medium of exchange) largely because it's pretty.  Also that its value grew as a medium of exchange (by some orders of magnitude) because it is soft and easily divisible.  In other words it wouldn't be considered as having anywhere near the 'intrinsic value' it does today were it not for its utility as a medium of exchange.  In common with gold, Bitcoin derives some of its own value for being mathematically 'pretty'. People really appreciate the beauty in its design and because some people become involved for that reason it forms part of the reason it is valued.  It is also, as we all know, easily divisible and for that and other advantages it has over gold, as I said, is a fantastic medium of exchange.  The only thing it's missing is the 'industry' bit.  But I can't see why that disqualifies it.

Maybe the 'intrinsic value' bit comes less out of satisfying certain (possibly arbitrary) conditions and more out of an acceptance of value across the board which enabled it to be used to back paper money?  But I'm afraid I am failing to see the critical distinction between Bitcoin and Gold just because a very small proportion of gold is used to do something that allows it to be classified it as a 'commodity' whereas Bitcoin doesn't.  I certainly can't yet see it as belonging in the same classification as a piece of paper that only has value because someone decided to print something on it and give it an arbitrary denomination.

Of course, in bitcoin-land, fiat means something different which is not in accord with the definition in economics.

If you randomly revise the language, it would make communication difficult.

I think you are being a tad unfair here.  Going to the derivation of a word, to its original meaning and/or using definitions from respected dictionaries is hardly 'randomly revis[ing] language'.  Whilst I am trying to get to the bottom of how economists justify their use of the word I still don't think it's helpful for advocates of either side to be making the other side out to be stupid.  I'm not trying to say economists 'should' see it the same way as I do.  I'm just trying to understand why economists use it as they do.  I had a theory (the corollary one) which now looks likely not to hold so I'd like a better idea.

I'll restate again, what matters most is that people understand that there are two distinct meanings so they know they need to work out, before disputing or agreeing with what somebody wrote, which meaning they had intended.

[Roger_Murdock]

So does that mean that gold is a "fiat" currency if we're using the "unbacked currency" definition? Bitcoin has more in common with gold than it does with U.S. dollars.  Bitcoin is a scarce digital commodity. It's true that Bitcoin isn't "backed," but it seems to me that the concept of "backing" only makes sense when the thing you're backing isn't reliably scarce, e.g. printed pieces of paper.  The purpose of backing is to keep the issuer honest by acting as a constraint on its ability to inflate the currency supply.  That scenario isn't possible with Bitcoin.

The economics definition is that gold is "commodity money" because gold has intrinsic value (it directly enters the utility function). Money which does not directly enter the utility function is called "fiat money."

State backing, etc. is irrelevant to the classification.

Of course, in bitcoin-land, fiat means something different which is not in accord with the definition in economics.

No, the economics definition will not change. These are well-defined technical terms. Money is sometimes modeled as "fiat money" and other times as "commodity money". The terms are referring to how money operates in mathematical models, not to how money operates in the real world. If you randomly revise the language, it would make communication difficult.

When I google "define fiat currency" here are the first five results.

From wikipedia:

Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or law.

From investopedia:

Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith.

From businessdictionary.com:

Common type of currency issued by official order, and whose value is based on the issuing authority's guarantee to pay the stated (face) amount on demand, and not on any intrinsic worth or extrinsic backing. All national currencies in circulation, issued and managed by the respective central banks, are fiat currencies.

From thefreedictionary.com:

Money that is not backed by anything other than a government trust. Fiat money has no intrinsic value; it only has value at all because all participants in an economy agree to trust the government issuing the currency. All modern money is fiat money. While deflation is possible for fiat money, it is much more susceptible to inflation.

From dictionary.com:

paper currency made legal tender by a fiat of the government, but not based on or convertible into coin.

Each of those definitions includes the idea of government, but they don't all include the idea of a lack of "intrinsic value."  I suppose you could define "fiat currency" as currency that has no "intrinsic value," i.e. currency that has no non-monetary usefulness, without reference to whether or not that currency has any kind of official government status.  And maybe that's how many people (including some self-described "economists") DO use the term.  But clearly there are a large number of people who use and understand the term "fiat" to refer to money that derives its value solely from government decree.  Which definition is "right"? Both. Neither. Language belongs to its users.  (But I'd note that based on the above admittedly-extremely-preliminary research, my definition does appear to be the more widely used one.) What's more interesting to me is the fact that this distinction has probably never been that important.  My guess is that there are very few examples of a market adopting an intrinsically-worthless currency in the absence of government coercion.

[sharky112065]

Bitcoin is anoymous (Relativily speaking) and therefore you can open as much accounts as you want and have all of those long passwords in your digital wallet or in several ones.

Change the word "much" to "many".

The "coins" on the Bitcoin network are generated (In a stable predictible rate) by a special type of Bitcoin users called "Miners" (Which you can be one yourself! it is not an exclusive club!).

It will be an exclusive club when ASIC's come out in the coming months as most people cannot just use their existing GPU's to mine and make a profit anymore.

[lophie]

GPU mining being not profitable anymore is true. But I think I have to explain my statement. I talk about Bitcoin with the people around me, ALOT!. Almost every single time I am asked "Sounds too good to be true someone must be taking all our money. It is just a complex scheme!". What I meant by my statement is no one is stopping you from joining the miners. Yes GPU mining made CPU mining not profitable but it is still possible! Unlike if you join "mining" USD using your HP inkjet! That's illegal! Then what if you used a super duper money printer to create an exact copy of their air-backed USB $$? Even more illegal!

[thoughtfan]

It will be an exclusive club when ASIC's come out in the coming months as most people cannot just use their existing GPU's to mine and make a profit anymore.

I agree with lophie.  The option to use your GPU (or even CPU) to experiment with and get the principles is still open.  The only difference is one has to decide to buy some equipment specifically for mining.  It is all but exclusive when you think the cheapest ASICs are within the price range of even most students and that the breakeven point for the student with one Jalapeno is not far off the same as for the biggest 'farmers' with their massive stups - especially if you think a good proportion of students live in accommodation where their rent is inclusive of electricity bills.

[sharky112065]

It will be an exclusive club when ASIC's come out in the coming months as most people cannot just use their existing GPU's to mine and make a profit anymore.

I agree with lophie.  The option to use your GPU (or even CPU) to experiment with and get the principles is still open.  The only difference is one has to decide to buy some equipment specifically for mining.  It is all but exclusive when you think the cheapest ASICs are within the price range of even most students and that the breakeven point for the student with one Jalapeno is not far off the same as for the biggest 'farmers' with their massive stups - especially if you think a good proportion of students live in accommodation where their rent is inclusive of electricity bills.

Yes people can buy the cheaper Jalapeno's but most are not likely to do so. Most everyone had a CPU when CPU mining was profitable, then when GPU mining took off, most people already had a GPU or had little reservation buying one as they could use it for gaming or sell it when it all goes to shit. With ASIC you have to buy the equipment special just for mining and if it all goes to shit you are left with useless hardware.

So it will be an "exclusive club" for most people.

My hardware is all paid off (including electricity cost over time) and I'm buying ASIC hardware with my profits, so it will cost me nothing out of pocket and if it all goes to shit I wont loose any sleep over having all that useless hardware sitting around.

[thoughtfan]

Yes people can buy the cheaper Jalapeno's but most are not likely to do so ...
So it will be an "exclusive club" for most people.

Sorry but to me an 'exclusive club' is one that I either can't get into without membership which is difficult and expensive to obtain or one that has deliberately high price on-the-door to keep the riff-raff out, not one that has a reasonable charge, affordable to most, on-the-door regardless of who you are!

[Lethn]

LoL I keep getting grilled. Look English is not my first language and I spent less than 12 minutes writing this. The opinions I was looking for are not for the language used but for the approach to Bitcoin. But thanks I really needed the mental spanking to remind myself I am expected to do better.

If I'm writing a long post or something for my website what I do is write it out on a word document first and get a dictionary to double check everything, www.dictionary.com seems to work just fine, I think the problem with your writing generally is you're using too many paragraphs unnecessarily and your sentences are far too short. Don't use unnecessary exclamation marks either if you're trying to come across as professional, you're also using way too many inverted commas.