Corporal Punishment (Re: Our response to Dmytri Kleiner's misunderstanding of money

[myrkul]

You are definitively pathetic.

Now who's using the ad hominem attacks, hmm?

No one.

Except you.

Well, Rudd-O has vehemently opposed Corporal Punishment, and in fact it was after a quote where he called for the ostracization of "defenders and rationalizers of child abuse" that you called him a hypocrite. (...)

Not just that quote, but this as well:

We will never have a non-violent society, ever, I swear to you on my life, until and unless we treat the most defenseless members of our society with the same respect and according to the same principles that we openly advocate and demand for ourselves and everybody else.

The "principles that" he/she "openly advocate and demand for ourselves and everybody else":

You might have noticed an absence of "science", "proof", "evidence" or "studies" in my post. This is intentional. Though the studies on child abuse are copious and conclusive, those of you who aren't child abusers don't need the evidence, and those who are child abusers will resist believing it anyway.

Yes, indeed, no one needs evidence, just believe in Rudd-O words... (Sarcasm).

Care to point out the hypocrisy, here? 'Cause I don't see it.

[Rudd-O]

For the record, I haven't read what augustocrappo has said in this thread, since he started sending me rather stalkerish private messages a day or so ago.  He appears to be trying to provoke me into "justifying" my behavior toward unpleasant or evil people.

He does appear to be angry at me about something, since (surmising from the bits he's been quoted on here) he's using the guidelines of engagement of a community I created (far more pleasant and respectful than this place) as some sort of "moral" standard to discredit me in a judgmental way.  Which I find hilarious, because norms of non-violent behavior are not "moral" standards.

Thus, he's (for lack of a better word) triaged out for his behavior as stalker, provocateur, and sophist.  :-)

I close with one of my trademark quotables:  Those of you who have a conscience, join me in deliberately and openly ostracizing defenders and rationalizers of child abuse.

[myrkul]

Myrkul and others, have you considered that calling any-and-every form of corporal punishment or behaviour modification "abuse" -- regardless of conscious intentions -- could be an insult to those who have suffered at the hands of real abusers? Things like vicious drunken punches, starvation, rape, being tied up with hemp rope? Your exaggerated emotionality regarding a "smack on the bottom for being naughty" would be downright insulting.

And I suppose victims of only a single forcible sex act calling what they experienced "rape" would be insulting to victims of gang rape?

[Rudd-O]

Myrkul and others, have you considered that calling any-and-every form of corporal punishment or behaviour modification "abuse" -- regardless of conscious intentions -- could be an insult to those who have suffered at the hands of real abusers? Things like vicious drunken punches, starvation, rape, being tied up with hemp rope? Your exaggerated emotionality regarding a "smack on the bottom for being naughty" would be downright insulting.

And I suppose victims of only a single forcible sex act calling what they experienced "rape" would be insulting to victims of gang rape?

Well said.  Apparently, according to blatherblatherblather, you must not call abuse "abuse", so long as there are bigger degrees of abuse out there, because (allegedly) "some abused people might feel insulted".  You harnessed that argument and brilliantly proved him wrong by recasting it into the dynamics of rape and gang rape.

Bravo.

[justusranvier]

Another parent's testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDqB14wlao

So I'm at work, after hours, plugging away at my PC, and a co-worker comes to my desk. She sees pictures of my son, and asks if he's mine. Yes, I respond.

 "Oh, he's so handsome! Is he well behaved?"

 I thought that was an odd question, so I said yes, he's very well behaved. When I asked what she meant, she went on about the hells of raising her 6 year old (mine is 7). She complains about how her child doesn't listen to her no matter how much she gets spanked, is constantly misbehaving, etc.

 At this point I had to ask, 'Did it ever occur to you that spanking might be the problem?' I ask this because for a lot of people when discussing the behavior of other children, if they're out of control the comment that the parents must not be spanking enough is always made. I ran into a similar situation a few months ago, went to the house of my wife's friend, and their little one was an absolute nightmare. He was combative, offensive, would not listen and just completely out of control. This was in a Catholic home with plenty of corporal punishment. The parents were just perplexed at what they could possibly be doing wrong, but unable to consider the possibility that spanking was the issue.

 Anyway, I said to my co-worker, my son is at the top of his class. His reading is 3 grades ahead and it's something he does on his own for enjoyment. His classmates look to him for help and as an example. He doesn't hit, he doesn't fight, he doesn't take. He is respectful of the property of others; if anything he's a bit too hesitant to use or touch anything that is not his without express permission to do so. We can take him anywhere, from long international flights to doctors visits to the movies and while he will probably complain about being bored, he'll never go berserk or cause a problem.

 He's empathetic, compassionate, respectful. I woke up today and he had already brushed his teeth and taken a shower, and gotten dressed for school COMPLETELY on his own. I don't know, sometimes I think I take him for granted, or at least his behavior. My co-worker was shocked. And then I dropped the bomb on her:

 I never hit him. Ever. I never raise a hand to him or make him feel threatened. I don't even raise my voice. It has been a lot of work, taking the time to be actively engaged in his life and having to reason with him to help him understand the hows and why's of the world. But I think he's worth it, and if what you want is a child that behaves the way mine does, the last thing you should do is hit. I am not a scientist and he is not an experiment, but anyone that has raised a child should see how they learn; by copying what you do. They're like little copy machines and they mimic behaviors with an amazing skill.

 So if you treat your child with respect instead of aggression, you will get respect instead of aggression.

 I just wanted to share this, and say thank you (again) to Stefan for opening my eyes. It really is true that if we want to achieve a peaceful, cooperative society the place to start is with our children, and the way to teach them is by example.

[myrkul]

Another parent's testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDqB14wlao

So if you treat your child with respect instead of aggression, you will get respect instead of aggression.

/thread.

[MoonShadow]

Another parent's testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDqB14wlao

So if you treat your child with respect instead of aggression, you will get respect instead of aggression.

/thread.

My wife and I constantly get compliments about how well behaved our children are.  This has less to do with what we may consider to be a legitimate correction method and more to do with the fact that they are homeschooled, and thus are not exposed to the bad habits of other peoples' children (in a mostly uncontrolled environment).  Corrolation is not causation.

[myrkul]

Another parent's testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDqB14wlao

So if you treat your child with respect instead of aggression, you will get respect instead of aggression.

/thread.

My wife and I constantly get compliments about how well behaved our children are.  This has less to do with what we may consider to be a legitimate correction method and more to do with the fact that they are homeschooled, and thus are not exposed to the bad habits of other peoples' children (in a mostly uncontrolled environment).  Corrolation is not causation.

You said it yourself: Correlation is not causation. It might be because they are homeschooled (in fact, I'd wager that plays a part - the school is one of the worst perpetrators of this sort of abuse), or it might be because of the relative respect you treat your children with, compared to their kids. As you say, you only beat them a little.

[Rudd-O]

Another parent's testimonial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDqB14wlao

So if you treat your child with respect instead of aggression, you will get respect instead of aggression.

/thread.

My wife and I constantly get compliments about how well behaved our children are.  This has less to do with what we may consider to be a legitimate correction method and more to do with the fact that they are homeschooled, and thus are not exposed to the bad habits of other peoples' children (in a mostly uncontrolled environment).  Corrolation is not causation.

You said it yourself: Correlation is not causation. It might be because they are homeschooled (in fact, I'd wager that plays a part - the school is one of the worst perpetrators of this sort of abuse), or it might be because of the relative respect you treat your children with, compared to their kids. As you say, you only beat them a little.

At least he homeschools them.  That's gotta protect them from the school bullies that helped rot the brains of so many people at large.

[justusranvier]

"I only raped her a little bit, and just with the tip, so it doesn't count."

[cunicula]

"I only raped her a little bit, and just with the tip, so it doesn't count."

Libertarians gotta take liberties.  Dat natural law. 

[Rudd-O]

I can't tell what cunticula wrote, but I can tell you he's on my ignore list for being an abusive person who has no compunction about insulting people who don't believe his statist dogma.  Feel free to use that to inform your replies to him.

[Crypt_Current]

Treat a child like an adult?  LOL go ahead and try it -- if it works, you'll be alive to tell about it.
I have experience raising children in a very low-income setting, and I know one thing from experience:  Give 'em an inch, they will take a mile or more.
I don't claim to be smart enough to consider myself a (rancid?) "statist" or a (dogmatic, unfocused?) libertarian, but I need to say this:
I hope none of you got paid for wasting the time that I wasted following this thread.  Back to washing dishes for me.

"Slaves shall serve."

[MoonShadow]

I can't tell what cunticula wrote, but I can tell you he's on my ignore list for being an abusive person who has no compunction about insulting people who don't believe his statist dogma. 

Wow.  That's definately the pot calling the kettle black.

[myrkul]

I can't tell what cunticula wrote, but I can tell you he's on my ignore list for being an abusive person who has no compunction about insulting people who don't believe his statist dogma. 

Wow.  That's definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

I think you may be confusing calling someone who abuses their children, even a little, a child abuser, and calling someone who disagrees with you an asshole (for disagreeing with you).

[MoonShadow]

I can't tell what cunticula wrote, but I can tell you he's on my ignore list for being an abusive person who has no compunction about insulting people who don't believe his statist dogma.  

Wow.  That's definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

I think you may be confusing calling someone who abuses their children, even a little, a child abuser, and calling someone who disagrees with you an asshole (for disagreeing with you).

I'm not confused about that, no.

BTW, Rudd-O is already famous for his attitude beyond my own interactions with him, both on this forum and in Wikipedia's forum.  So perhaps more like the kettle calling the pot racist.

[Rudd-O]

I can't tell what cunticula wrote, but I can tell you he's on my ignore list for being an abusive person who has no compunction about insulting people who don't believe his statist dogma. 

Wow.  That's definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

I think you may be confusing calling someone who abuses their children, even a little, a child abuser, and calling someone who disagrees with you an asshole (for disagreeing with you).

Thanks.  That is correct.

[cunicula]

I can't tell what cunticula wrote, but I can tell you he's on my ignore list for being an abusive person who has no compunction about insulting people who don't believe his statist dogma. 

Wow.  That's definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

I think you may be confusing calling someone ___________[some opinionated labelling going on here]_________, and calling someone ______[who has other opinions]______ an asshole (______[for having different opinions]____).

Riiiight..., because your opinions are "all facts" whereas his ones are crazy bullshit...

His 'opinions' are derived using logic based on the axioms of natural law. That makes them facts, not 'opinions.'

[MoonShadow]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/should-parents-be-allowed-to-humiliate-kids-in-public/

I wonder what you guys think of this tactic, perticularly you myrkul.  I foresee similar problems with your two girls, particularly if you don't homeschool them.

[justusranvier]

If you're punishing children at all you're doing it wrong.

The entire retaliation-based parenting parenting paradigm should be scrapped as abusive and counterproductive.