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Saeder-Krupp (OP)
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November 14, 2012, 07:23:23 PM
 #1

Hello there.

I've heard about bitcoin a bit more than one month ago.
So ... I tried to figure out what to do to mine, especially the mining rig. I was thinking about the "classic" setup: >1k watt PSU, a mainboard with 6 or more PCIE slots, raisers, 6 cards (something between 7850 to 7970), etc.

I didn't want to rush and I knew that I won't be able to buy such a rig before, at least, February 2013. I could, but I have to manage my own financial security first.
So I decided to get more informations about the Bitcoin currency, look for boards like Bitcoin Forum, rigs, and all.

And then I found these posts about Butterfly Labs and their products. I keep reading things about them.
I don't understand something about their pre-orders.
If I buy that: BitForce 'Little' Single SC 30 GH/s - $649
I will get it for $649 or is it like a pre-payment and I'll need to pay something more later?
Do we have other companies who sell such products or are they the first (I mean with that GH/s/$ ratio. 30GH/s that's alot).

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November 14, 2012, 09:46:50 PM
 #2

That is the final price of the product, it is so cheap because it is a custom build chip for BTC mining, just keep in mind that it can only be used for that. The next important thing is that the chips aren't build yet BFL says first shipment of these devices will be in beginning of December and there are a lot of orders in line waiting for the product.

Other manufactures are bASIC and Avalon

IMO there is no point to invest in GPU rig now, just wait and see.

MysteryMiner
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November 14, 2012, 10:26:00 PM
 #3

Butterfly Labs is a SCAM! I suggest not preordering from them and wait until they ship the product.

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November 15, 2012, 02:27:33 AM
 #4

I have to manage my own financial security first.

Hi there.

Please be careful. Bitcoin in general is a very risky investment. It's a fairly new idea, and new ideas are always risky.

Don't buy graphics cards to mine with. You won't be able to even make a profit on that. Those days are gone, sadly.

BFL is risky. There are questions about whether it may be a scam. Even if you get your product it may take a long time to start making a profit. Alternatively it might take a few weeks and then you will be in profit. It's very hard to predict the future of Bitcoin mining. No one knows how much difficulty will go up as a result of ASICs. No one can really predict how much they will make, and how fast. Also, with BFL, no one can predict when exactly they will ship the product. No one even knows whether they are a scam or not!

There are a LOT of uncertainties. It's all a big risk for someone who is worrying about financial security.

Don't spend any money on anything Bitcoin related that you can't afford to lose. If you can afford to risk it all then it might be a good gamble, but at the moment you are on a roulette wheel. If you need the money to live, then keep it in your pocket. Wait until you have more disposable cash that you can afford to lose before you get involved in Bitcoin. Don't worry, it will still be here. The big gold rush is over anyway.

If you are desperate to get involved in Bitcoin, just buy some coins with whatever you can afford to risk. There are many people who think that buying coins now and waiting for them to rise in value is a better investment than mining equipment. That may or may not be true. The real advantage is that if you can risk as little or as much as you want. You don't have to spend a lot of money on mining equipment at once.

Be careful in general. Bitcoins are an incredible thing, and a lot of people have made some great money with them, but people have lost money too, through scams, hacks and god knows what else. Don't put all your eggs in the Bitcoin basket. It's a good basket, but it's a risky one. I don't have more money than I can afford to lose wrapped up in Bitcoin and neither should anyone else, in my opinion.

I hope this helped. Best wishes and good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Saeder-Krupp (OP)
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November 16, 2012, 03:16:03 PM
Last edit: November 20, 2012, 08:09:13 PM by Saeder-Krupp
 #5

That is the final price of the product, it is so cheap because it is a custom build chip for BTC mining, just keep in mind that it can only be used for that. The next important thing is that the chips aren't build yet BFL says first shipment of these devices will be in beginning of December and there are a lot of orders in line waiting for the product.

Other manufactures are bASIC and Avalon

IMO there is no point to invest in GPU rig now, just wait and see.
Final price of the product ... it looks really awkward for me.

Butterfly Labs is a SCAM! I suggest not preordering from them and wait until they ship the product.
That's what I'll do. There's alot thing I don't understand about this company. From I've red here and see on their website is misleading or have no real informations.
But there are too many details that makes me think twice before buying one of their product.
I won't call it a scam now, but they have some PR/timeline/business problems, for sure.

#1
The gap between these ones (about price & generated hash) "looks" too high.
The Single - 832 MH/s - $599
BitForce 'Little' Single SC  - 30 GH/s - $649
They sold the Mini Rig for $15,295 which did 25.2 GH/s and now they sell a machine which does 30GH/s for $649?
How did they manage to get such a raise in GH/s for that price? From Single to Single SC, it's still 36 times more for a 50$ minor difference.
It's not the same type of chip, but I can't help, I'm disturbed because I think about CPU/GPU down/over clocking, especially what it is said about energy consumption and cooling.

#2
So in a few months, they were able to:
  • design, test, correct the flaws, test again, the chips?
  • Do the same for the circuitry boards with these chips welded on them?
  • And again when they'll mount everything together to have finished products?

On their website:
Quote
The BitForce SC chip is now in final stage development.  Initial product delivery is scheduled for December.
Again, it disturbs me.

#3
The single was legit from what I've seen here, but about the next ones?
When I look for Intel/AMD or whatever manufacturers' products or future products, they have charts with some technical specifications.

I see that on BFL forum:
Quote
BitForce Jalapeno - 4.5gh/s @ 4.5w
BitForce Single SC - 60 GH/s @ 60w
BitForce MiniRig SC - 1,500 GH/s @ 1,500w
I keep thinking about what I've said in #1
The Single - 832 MH/s -80w
And I see that:
About Asics: http://bitcoinmagazine.net/bfl-confirms-65nm-process-for-sc-lineup/
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/9916813RUEI.jpg
I haven't seen anything like this about BFL. And now that I checked Avalon and bitcoinAsic ... the same, nothing about exact technical specs.
Here's a good example of what I mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Radeon_R700_.28HD_4xxx.29_series
I want the same from BFL, Avalon & bAsic. Giving specs doesn't mean that they'll have to show us any manufacturing secret process and put themselves in danger.

#4
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0


I'm a totally new user, I didn't even tried to mine yet, I'm not in Bitcoin like many other experienced users on this forum.
I could preorder 3 - 4 Jalapeno or one Single SC without putting myself into any financial risks, but I'm confused about what I've red on this forum to make any move and make a bankwire payment.


Hi there.

Please be careful. Bitcoin in general is a very risky investment. It's a fairly new idea, and new ideas are always risky.

Don't buy graphics cards to mine with. You won't be able to even make a profit on that. Those days are gone, sadly.

BFL is risky. There are questions about whether it may be a scam. Even if you get your product it may take a long time to start making a profit. Alternatively it might take a few weeks and then you will be in profit. It's very hard to predict the future of Bitcoin mining. No one knows how much difficulty will go up as a result of ASICs. No one can really predict how much they will make, and how fast. Also, with BFL, no one can predict when exactly they will ship the product. No one even knows whether they are a scam or not!

There are a LOT of uncertainties. It's all a big risk for someone who is worrying about financial security.

Don't spend any money on anything Bitcoin related that you can't afford to lose. If you can afford to risk it all then it might be a good gamble, but at the moment you are on a roulette wheel. If you need the money to live, then keep it in your pocket. Wait until you have more disposable cash that you can afford to lose before you get involved in Bitcoin. Don't worry, it will still be here. The big gold rush is over anyway.

If you are desperate to get involved in Bitcoin, just buy some coins with whatever you can afford to risk. There are many people who think that buying coins now and waiting for them to rise in value is a better investment than mining equipment. That may or may not be true. The real advantage is that if you can risk as little or as much as you want. You don't have to spend a lot of money on mining equipment at once.

Be careful in general. Bitcoins are an incredible thing, and a lot of people have made some great money with them, but people have lost money too, through scams, hacks and god knows what else. Don't put all your eggs in the Bitcoin basket. It's a good basket, but it's a risky one. I don't have more money than I can afford to lose wrapped up in Bitcoin and neither should anyone else, in my opinion.

I hope this helped. Best wishes and good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Thanks you. Your whole post should REALLY be pinned and appears as a popup warning when you enter this forum.
I'm not desperate, but getting money through bitcoins would help me a lot. I really want to slap myself, because I've heard about bitcoin 2 years ago but didn't dig into it.
To use something really visual, I can say it could help me to fix several kind of private "open wounds who keep bleeding and broken bones who are still protruding". Since years.
But I've heard alot about scams, so if I want to get involved into something about money, I maintain self-control.
CharlieContent
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November 16, 2012, 04:13:27 PM
 #6

Thanks you. Your whole should REALLY be pinned and appears as a popup warning when you enter this forum.

It should, but a lot of people in this forum have a religious devotion to Bitcoin. They are happy to talk all day about the strengths, but they don't even want to acknowledge that it has weaknesses. Bitcoin is excellent but it's important to take an extra special level of care over it. You have to be more careful with Bitcoin than any other type of money, much more careful. When people are reminded of this, others bury their head in the sand and say it is just "fear, uncertainty and doubt." But fear, uncertainty and doubt is a healthy thing when you are involved with Bitcoin. It shouldn't stop anyone from using it, but you need to mitigate your risks.


I'm not desperate, but getting money through bitcoins would help me a lot.

This isn't really a good reason to get involved with Bitcoin, I don't think. Bitcoin isn't a get rich quick scheme. It's not even a get rich scheme.

Many people made a good amount of money from Bitcoin, and they all took a big risk. It could easily have gone the other way, and many people lost money too. However, the rewards are much less now. It's so much harder to mine coins. You need to risk everything you put into Bitcoin, just like the early pioneers did, but even if you are successful you won't make as much as they have. The risks are the same, but the rewards are much smaller. And the odds are stacked against you.

If you think of it like a casino, and you are always aware that anything you spend on Bitcoin could be lost forever with no profit, then it it can be a good investment. Just don't let it ruin you, because Bitcoin business is highly risky gambling for a lot of different reasons.

I don't mean to discourage you, just warn you against taking too big a risk.

Cheers.
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November 16, 2012, 04:19:32 PM
 #7

+1 what charlie said

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November 16, 2012, 05:05:11 PM
 #8

To echo what others have said, everything about bitcoin right now is a risk. "It's not a get rich quick scheme. It's not even a get rich scheme." is a brilliant description. Unless you come up with The Ultimate Scam, or the Perfect Storm combination of product/service+marketing+opportunity+customer base, bitcoin is a marathon, not a sprint. 

I'm a dabbler. I mine my bitdime a day, have bought some coins through various sources, etc, and have a small hoard. I've also dropped $312 on a couple of Jalapeno preorders (cue MysteryMiner saying it's a scam).  Right now, that's all I'm sinking into bitcoin until i start seeing some BFL units shipping and see some posts about mining results, etc.

If you are aggressive and ambitious and crafty, you can spend a lot of time playing the "buy low, sell high" game (buy 10BTC from source A at $10.20 per, sell to customer B for $10.70 per, profit $0.50 per BTC - minus any transaction fees incurred), but that takes a fair amount of effort and time sitting in front of your PC moving bitcoins around and making payments/collecting payments etc. Not to mention the risk involved unless you're using trusted services/agents.

"Don't spend any money on anything Bitcoin related that you can't afford to lose."

Words to live by.  If spending $650 on an ASIC preorder means you might not make rent, or might not be able to put gas in the car next month, I'd say don't risk it. If you've got a little nest egg, gadget fund, sudden small windfall from lottery scratchers whatever, and you feel like getting in on something that has a lot of potential, then go for it.

Saeder-Krupp (OP)
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November 17, 2012, 06:34:02 PM
 #9

[...]
This isn't really a good reason to get involved with Bitcoin, I don't think. Bitcoin isn't a get rich quick scheme. It's not even a get rich scheme.
[...]
If you think of it like a casino, and you are always aware that anything you spend on Bitcoin could be lost forever with no profit, then it it can be a good investment. Just don't let it ruin you, because Bitcoin business is highly risky gambling for a lot of different reasons.

I don't mean to discourage you, just warn you against taking too big a risk.

Cheers.
[...]"Don't spend any money on anything Bitcoin related that you can't afford to lose."

Words to live by.  If spending $650 on an ASIC preorder means you might not make rent, or might not be able to put gas in the car next month, I'd say don't risk it. If you've got a little nest egg, gadget fund, sudden small windfall from lottery scratchers whatever, and you feel like getting in on something that has a lot of potential, then go for it.
That's why I said I won't be able to invest in it until next year. I've learned by watching others. I'm living by strict rules when it's about money. Take care of all bills of what I need first, have some funds in case something unexpected happens, and then do what I want and something useful with the rest.

Let's see ... I've have many interests in bitcoin:
- Earn money. Not getting rich, but mining and get something each month would help.
- All the tech part about mining rigs. (and I'm not talking about BFL).
- Getting involved in a new monetary system. I mean, there's nothing outside which looks like the bitcoin system. It may be the future or be established as new parallel monetary system, it's good to stay in touch with that for my personal knowledge.

The best way to limit the risks is to not jump in. Too late. I'm already in, but just at the beginning, taking time to read & understand, then I'll see.
But for sure, I'm not going to jeopardize my situation/status.

And again, thanks for your warnings, I take that seriously.
CharlieContent
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November 18, 2012, 08:18:54 AM
 #10

And again, thanks for your warnings, I take that seriously.

My pleasure. Another thing to consider is, as I think I already mentioned, that it might be a better investment to buy coins and watch them increase in value rather than buy mining equipment and mine. If you aren't a wealthy person it might be more wise to have liquid investments that you can cash out on instantly in an emergency, plus it may end up making you more money in the long run. Worth considering for anyone who is starting to take the plunge into Bitcoin. Personally if I was getting involved in Bitcoin that is what I would do.
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November 18, 2012, 09:18:53 AM
 #11

Thanks CharlieContent and Aahzman for your awesome advice. I'm currently curious at BFL's bitcoin mining devices but I'll definitely wait first for a lot of people to have good feedback on its legitimacy. I find bitcoins fascinating but also risky. Anyway I'll take your advices seriously, and again thanks a lot!  Smiley

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