Critic to the trust system.

[Benjig]

Hello!
 
I'm here since 2013 and I always saw this flaw over here, i don't care about my trust now but just to avoid questions,
my neg trust was left by a scammer user called "equamoby" who claimed i not "recommended" a "reputable escrow".

But that's not important, the flaw i'm going to talk about is this:

The old ones already know how this works but the new people entering this forum:

Imagine an ebay site with feedback and reputation system just as what it has now, but
imagine the visible reputation is not from everyone, just from a circle of 10 users/sellers and the
people trusted by this 10 people circle.

So if you register on there and after one year, you have made let's say 10 trades, you could've
sent reputation and feedback to every user you made trade with, but that feedback will not be shown
on his profile!! only by clicking a very hidden function who says "untrusted feedback" unless that group of 10 people
or the ones trusted by them leaves you good feedback!, if not, no matter if your account has 50 trades and it's
1 year old, the feedback you send is "invisible" to everyone just like a 10 post account feedback!, same happens with the negative feedback.

What can get this? well this overpowers the group of 10 people wich their feedback can become visible,

*They can have a misunderstanding with any user outside that circle and do fraudulent activity without worrying about his
reputation to be damaged, as the trust of everyone outside them is "invisible".

*They can conspire between them to make a deal of not sending negative trust between them to became virtually "inmune"
no matter if the user outside the circle is reporting something real and fraudulent about one of them.

*As they really act like a team, they fight competition and can send invalid ng trust when their particular business profit is threaten.

So then we have this group of overpowered users who don't even  sites like ebay has , it could be ok with some particular forum system
acting as regulators, some mechanism where they should monitor every trade, but they don't even provide any insurance on any trade, they are not even part or staff of the forum!, if you are scammed, they will not help you in any way as ebay staff can do!, they are anonymous as any user on the forum.

The next problem is worst:

Besides making the trust system a monopoly and leaving new users not only as unsafe as first but now they are threaten as scammers easily.

But the main danger is as this trust circle is nothing related to a forum IDs validaded people or any similar insurance, they can become the worst
scammers taking advantage of the monopolized trust they have, and it has already happened and not one, tens of times!.

Just see the list of the banned users or scammers and you will see tens of accounts who had high green trust, even there are many "donators",
"vip" etc, as the already famous one "tradefortress" who was "VIP" and scammed over 2,000 bitcoins.

If we needed to clasify the form of government this forum has would't obviously be a Democracy but an Oligarchy, as this group of people
are overpowered and no one but only themselves can take away that power.

And the worst thing is the forum Staff spent 1,000 bitcoins on a forum software upgrade!! but they can't even change this flawed trust system.

BR!.

[Monnt]

I don't think this system is flawed, i think you're just saying this because you have negative trust.

[Benjig]

I don't think this system is flawed, i think you're just saying this because you have negative trust.

Here we have the first guy "plausing" the oligarchs just because probably he want's to become one of them later.  

[mexxer-2]

I don't think this system is flawed, i think you're just saying this because you have negative trust.

Here we have the first guy "plausing" the oligarchs just because probably he want's to become one of them later.  

You're just jealous that your troll feedbacks to the DT members don't count at all. Anyway, this was a community decision, theymos wanted to replace DT with a more complicated trust system but community(majority) voted against it, so here we are.

[shorena]

-snip-
*They can have a misunderstanding with any user outside that circle and do fraudulent activity without worrying about his
reputation to be damaged, as the trust of everyone outside them is "invisible".

No, DT members are not above all others.

-snip-
 if you are scammed, they will not help you in any way as ebay staff can do!, they are anonymous as any user on the forum.

I was told that my ratings helped to resolve some issues. I asked you to present your side of the story as well after you suggested a known (was tagged by Vod) loan defaulter as escrow agend. From what I know after tomatocage was counter suggested, you did not even reply. This would raise anyones red flags. The below is your answer. You are overly defensive and insulting, sounds like you got called out.

well, i have this guy jon.viruete on skype and he says is a so called escrow..
why would i receive neg trust just for offering a guy?

so i need to be an expert on all the users on the forum to not receive neg trust?

-snip-
I will return you neg trust with other accounts asshole, so better you remove it.

-snip-
fuck you, you are your scammy trust network build form jerks and nerds like you. lol, i will post when u scammed that time..

If we needed to clasify the form of government this forum has would't obviously be a Democracy but an Oligarchy, as this group of people
are overpowered and no one but only themselves can take away that power.

And the worst thing is the forum Staff spent 1,000 bitcoins on a forum software upgrade!! but they can't even change this flawed trust system.

BR!.

This is a private forum, its a monarchy.

[Benjig]

I don't think this system is flawed, i think you're just saying this because you have negative trust.

Here we have the first guy "plausing" the oligarchs just because probably he want's to become one of them later.  

You're just jealous that your troll feedbacks to the DT members don't count at all. Anyway, this was a community decision, theymos wanted to replace DT with a more complicated trust system but community(majority) voted against it, so here we are.

I've never cared about trust and i almost don't make trades.  

My critic is only an objective critic, and respecting what you said, well, i've always liked this forum but
the ones who don't evolve are destined to fail and be replaced with better ones, and every one knows
this forum has already strong competition, it's just a free market rule...

Obviously no one will agree with a new system if the voters are the trust circle itself, my God!, it's like saying:
"this dictator was about to be removed, we created a voting poll with his close staff and his family, but they surprisingly
voted against it!! so I think it's the people's decision."

[onemorexmr]

your ebay example sucks, because no one is forced to keep the "ten almighty persons" in their trustlist.
i have changed them and so do others. if people rely on trust they will change it.. its just that this circle has prooven their trustworthyness for a very long time.

the system is not perfect and you have a valid claim that it gives them to much power. but its not that worse than you want it to be (for whatever reason)

[Monnt]

I don't think this system is flawed, i think you're just saying this because you have negative trust.

Here we have the first guy "plausing" the oligarchs just because probably he want's to become one of them later.  

You're just jealous that your troll feedbacks to the DT members don't count at all. Anyway, this was a community decision, theymos wanted to replace DT with a more complicated trust system but community(majority) voted against it, so here we are.

I've never cared about trust and i almost don't make trades.  

My critic is only an objective critic, and respecting what you said, well, i've always liked this forum but
the ones who don't evolve are destined to fail and be replaced with better ones, and every one knows
this forum has already strong competition, it's just a free market rule...

Obviously no one will agree with a new system if the voters are the trust circle itself, my God!, it's like saying:
"this dictator was about to be removed, we created a voting poll with his close staff and his family, but they surprisingly
voted against it!! so I think it's the people's decision."

Oh. Then may i ask why your personal text says "Trusted" when you don't care about your trust at all? 

[Benjig]

And about what "shorena" said, well i have this escrow guy on my skype, and he also has a website (that i will not post here) and at least he have escrowed my last trades good and i trust him, that "defaulted" loan accusation is from like 3 years ago and that account is not even active, so i can post within a scam attempt a skype from a trust circle member acting as mine, then to unveil myself as a scammer and this guys will neg trust him? i don't think so.

It's not up to the other part in this case "anarchy" user to investigate and decide if he likes that escrow or no?


And, where are the rules who say "If you don't use an escrow from this list, you will negative rep"
And in the hypothetical case it were, where are the insurance this users wont still scam us?, did the staff asked for a KYC at least?

Who else applies rules or laws only to the people they want and not to all? again, an Oligarchy

The only thing i see here is that Admins wanted to make a "freedom" forum, but this ended worse than if there were some centralized people
monitoring all the trades and even charging a fee.

PD: Monnt: It's an obvious joke to the system.

[Monnt]

Oh well. Talk to the DT users and see what they say about this. But I believe most are happy with the current system.

[Benjig]

Oh well. Talk to the DT users and see what they say about this. But I believe most are happy with the current system.

The only way this can be improved without having many centralized people or asking for KYC is to remove that trust circle and
peg it to the activity and remove hierarchy point levels (i mean, every trade should count only as 1 point on the feedback no matter if it was
made by a 1 year old user or a "vip") , less than 50 activity feedback can remain invisible, put mods to slightly verify each feedback to avoid
fake feedback between users, ban accounts who make feedbacks between them with the same IP, on the trust it can also show
the volume traded to avoid having +100 with only 5 USD trades, and give the mods the authority to randomly ask a seller to make
a prove of his funds, if someone sees some user is making "several trades" but always with a small group of people; he can randomly ask
in a trade where for example if he is selling 5 BTCs, he can ask to send a proof of those transactions and if he fails this should result in
perm bans, (no one will easily risk to have his account perm banned via making fake trades), those are hard rules, but this is how successful
trade sites works.
This should be stated as a rule to read before any trade.


The MM or escrows listed as "secure" at least should be asked for a verification with ID and video-call, yeah i know, this is bitcoin
bitcoin was supposed to be anonymous, and yes this is true! but for the final user, my friend: since you started offering a public service with
your responsibility to maintain funds secured, you stopped being anonymous, because the only 99% SAFE anonymous system
in a transactions market is the one made by a machine. I think many escrows will be happy to send their verification
if they can raise the fee for their services, but at the end this will attract more traders here and they will gain real money, and the ones who don't
either they plan to make a fraud or his escrow services are not a serious job on their lives which ends in less responsibility, i'm not saying escrows have
scammed, at least i don't remember, but there can be only a matter of time when one account is "hacked" or something and escrow runs with 10 or more
bitcoins, i trust current escrows but in reality nothing is preventing one of them to take a trade as his "retirement" prize, and this is seen by many traders
that don't choose escrows from here to make important txs.

[kunal1]

I really dont understand trust system fully but i cant understand when there is really a truth then why people don't understand it , i see a lot of people scamming here and People who have more coins in there name are also scamming , i cant believe how all works.

[mexxer-2]

The only way this can be improved without having many centralized people or asking for KYC is to remove that trust circle and
peg it to the activity and remove hierarchy point levels (i mean, every trade should count only as 1 point on the feedback no matter if it was
made by a 1 year old user or a "vip") , less than 50 activity feedback can remain invisible,

Won't work, there's tons of account sales.

less than 50 activity feedback can remain invisible, put mods to slightly verify each feedback to avoid
fake feedback between users, ban accounts who make feedbacks between them with the same IP, on the trust it can also show
the volume traded to avoid having +100 with only 5 USD trades, and give the mods the authority to randomly ask a seller to make
a prove of his funds, if someone sees some user is making "several trades" but always with a small group of people; he can randomly ask
in a trade where for example if he is selling 5 BTCs, he can ask to send a proof of those transactions and if he fails this should result in
perm bans, (no one will easily risk to have his account perm banned via making fake trades), those are hard rules, but this is how successful
trade sites works.

That means more work for the mods, which is the exact reason why obvious scams too aren't moderated. Staff is a group of people who are helping the forum voluntarily, they're not someone who you can just thrust the work on. This "work" is done by DT members, because nearly everyone trusts them because someone who theymos personally trusts(see the staff relation to this?) has included them in their trust list, so indirectly theymos trusts them too.
More coming in a bit, just a bit busy atm

The MM or escrows listed as "secure" at least should be asked for a verification with ID and video-call, yeah i know, this is bitcoin
bitcoin was supposed to be anonymous, and yes this is true! but for the final user, my friend: since you started offering a public service with
your responsibility to maintain funds secured, you stopped being anonymous, because the only 99% SAFE anonymous system
in a transactions market is the one made by a machine. I think many escrows will be happy to send their verification
if they can raise the fee for their services, but at the end this will attract more traders here and they will gain real money, and the ones who don't
either they plan to make a fraud or his escrow services are not a serious job on their lives which ends in less responsibility, i'm not saying escrows have
scammed, at least i don't remember, but there can be only a matter of time when one account is "hacked" or something and escrow runs with 10 or more
bitcoins, i trust current escrows but in reality nothing is preventing one of them to take a trade as his "retirement" prize, and this is seen by many traders
that don't choose escrows from here to make important txs.

[shorena]

And about what "shorena" said, well i have this escrow guy on my skype, and he also has a website (that i will not post here) and at least he have escrowed my last trades good and i trust him, that "defaulted" loan accusation is from like 3 years ago and that account is not even active,

Shows how trustworthy that person is dont you think? Does not give a damn about repaying 0.08 BTC, but should be trusted with 1.5 BTC. If you cant see why this might be a problem for some and instead blame everyone else I dont see how my rating towards you is wrong.

so i can post within a scam attempt a skype from a trust circle member acting as mine, then to unveil myself as a scammer and this guys will neg trust him? i don't think so.

Not sure what you are refering to here, can you rephrase that?

It's not up to the other part in this case "anarchy" user to investigate and decide if he likes that escrow or no?

Anarchy is the absense of leader(s). You might want to make up your mind whether you think the default trust network is an oligarchy or has no leader. Besides, the user you tried to trade with asked for help. Someone looked into it and found a connection to a known scammer. I can see why this is a problem for you, but I dont understand why you think its a problem in general.

And, where are the rules who say "If you don't use an escrow from this list, you will negative rep"

There is no such rule. There are in fact no rules for the default trust system besides maybe dont spam. No one forced a certain escrow upon you with a negative rating. You left the table at the suggestion of another escrow agend. Your behaviour raised suspicions.

And in the hypothetical case it were, where are the insurance this users wont still scam us?, did the staff asked for a KYC at least?

There are none. Default Trust members have scammer in the past. You should take the same precautions with them as with everyone else.

Who else applies rules or laws only to the people they want and not to all? again, an Oligarchy

The only thing i see here is that Admins wanted to make a "freedom" forum, but this ended worse than if there were some centralized people
monitoring all the trades and even charging a fee.

PD: Monnt: It's an obvious joke to the system.

Oh well. Talk to the DT users and see what they say about this. But I believe most are happy with the current system.

The only way this can be improved without having many centralized people or asking for KYC is to remove that trust circle and
peg it to the activity

So old accounts should be considered trustworthy? My account is older than yours, trust me!

and remove hierarchy point levels (i mean, every trade should count only as 1 point on the feedback no matter if it was
made by a 1 year old user or a "vip"), less than 50 activity feedback can remain invisible, put mods to slightly verify each feedback to avoid
fake feedback between users, ban accounts who make feedbacks between them with the same IP,

So you replace default trust with mods that have even more power and can more easily misuse it? Also, how can mods verify the feedback? KYC? This forum would be empty next week if everyone here had to register with their ID.

on the trust it can also show
the volume traded to avoid having +100 with only 5 USD trades, and give the mods the authority to randomly ask a seller to make
a prove of his funds, if someone sees some user is making "several trades" but always with a small group of people; he can randomly ask
in a trade where for example if he is selling 5 BTCs, he can ask to send a proof of those transactions and if he fails this should result in
perm bans, (no one will easily risk to have his account perm banned via making fake trades), those are hard rules, but this is how successful
trade sites works.
This should be stated as a rule to read before any trade.

You do know that those on default trust are put into place by mods right? If you trust the mods to handle all this, you should trust us. Everyone on default trust was put on it by an admin. Either directly or indirectly.

The MM or escrows listed as "secure" at least should be asked for a verification with ID and video-call, yeah i know, this is bitcoin
bitcoin was supposed to be anonymous, and yes this is true! but for the final user, my friend: since you started offering a public service with
your responsibility to maintain funds secured, you stopped being anonymous, because the only 99% SAFE anonymous system
in a transactions market is the one made by a machine. I think many escrows will be happy to send their verification
if they can raise the fee for their services, but at the end this will attract more traders here and they will gain real money, and the ones who don't
either they plan to make a fraud or his escrow services are not a serious job on their lives which ends in less responsibility.

Is this how your escrow partner operates? I only saw a PGP signed message. Did I miss that?

[Benjig]

shorena:

I'm not replacing trust system with old accounts, i'm replacing trust system with a real democratic trust system equally for everyone and which only gives 1 point per trade.  

Is better to have trusted mods with more power, they are a small group and technically they belong to the Staff, instead of having
100 anonymous users acting like mods but without following any rules but his own "style" and making whenever they want his own will, and yet again; at the end without offering any insurance to the traders!. This forum could even surpass sites like LBC if people could feel safe trading here.

Nice try, my friend.

[GannickusX]

If there were no DT members then mods would have to take action against negative trust spamming because someone could just use his 20 accounts to make you red. The question here is, why do you think the current trust system is not working, do you have any evidence to prove your points? Like some examples where the trust system failed? Of course sometimes it might fail but im pretty confident that 99% of the times it works just fine.

Pd: People care too much about it anyways, you can always do any business if you are willing to use an escrow.

[erikalui]

Hello!
 
I'm here since 2013 and I always saw this flaw over here, i don't care about my trust now but just to avoid questions,
my neg trust was left by a scammer user called "equamoby" who claimed i not "recommended" a "reputable escrow".

But that's not important, the flaw i'm going to talk about is this:

The old ones already know how this works but the new people entering this forum:

Imagine an ebay site with feedback and reputation system just as what it has now, but
imagine the visible reputation is not from everyone, just from a circle of 10 users/sellers and the
people trusted by this 10 people circle.

Ebay's reputation system is horrible as anyone can leave you a feedback without any proof. One person cancelled my deal and left me a negative rating without any proof. It should have been the opposite LOL. You also cannot report the negative feedback you receive on Ebay. I have been a part of a forum where trust ratings are moderated and hence nobody can leave fake ratings without any proof. That system works the best.

So if you register on there and after one year, you have made let's say 10 trades, you could've
sent reputation and feedback to every user you made trade with, but that feedback will not be shown
on his profile!! only by clicking a very hidden function who says "untrusted feedback" unless that group of 10 people
or the ones trusted by them leaves you good feedback!, if not, no matter if your account has 50 trades and it's
1 year old, the feedback you send is "invisible" to everyone just like a 10 post account feedback!, same happens with the negative feedback.

Untrusted feedback is present for the reason that here newbies just leave ratings and spam DT or reputed members trust profile and hence their feedback shouldn't count. Trust isn't moderated here and even I have untrusted feedback which I don't give importance too as for me the ratings don't matter much. If I want to trade with someone, I do check his untrusted ratings too but use an escrow even if he is trusted if he isn't willing to go first. That's how it works for me.



What can get this? well this overpowers the group of 10 people wich their feedback can become visible,

*They can have a misunderstanding with any user outside that circle and do fraudulent activity without worrying about his
reputation to be damaged, as the trust of everyone outside them is "invisible".

Not necessary the 10 people selected are highly trustworthy. They are humans and they can anytime turn into scammers if they are in need of money. DT members also sell their accounts. It depends from person to person and it's their wish of whom they feel have a reputation and whom they feel are not trustworthy. The DT position doesn't make them SPECIAL MEMBERS here.



*They can conspire between them to make a deal of not sending negative trust between them to became virtually "inmune"
no matter if the user outside the circle is reporting something real and fraudulent about one of them.

*As they really act like a team, they fight competition and can send invalid ng trust when their particular business profit is threaten.

So then we have this group of overpowered users who don't even  sites like ebay has , it could be ok with some particular forum system
acting as regulators, some mechanism where they should monitor every trade, but they don't even provide any insurance on any trade, they are not even part or staff of the forum!, if you are scammed, they will not help you in any way as ebay staff can do!, they are anonymous as any user on the forum.

True. There is no insurance or any kind of guarantee provided when we use an escrow but on this forum where almost 80% people are desperate to scam, the escrow helps the buyers and sellers by giving atleast 50% assurance of having a safe deal. If we deal with non reversible payments, there is no chance of getting scammed. If in case we do get scammed, the escrow cannot be held responsible as well because he completed the deal. If he has scammed any party, then it's his responsibility. Everyone is anonymous in the online world so it's not only an escrow who is one.

The next problem is worst:

Besides making the trust system a monopoly and leaving new users not only as unsafe as first but now they are threaten as scammers easily.

But the main danger is as this trust circle is nothing related to a forum IDs validaded people or any similar insurance, they can become the worst
scammers taking advantage of the monopolized trust they have, and it has already happened and not one, tens of times!.

Just see the list of the banned users or scammers and you will see tens of accounts who had high green trust, even there are many "donators",
"vip" etc, as the already famous one "tradefortress" who was "VIP" and scammed over 2,000 bitcoins.

If we needed to clasify the form of government this forum has would't obviously be a Democracy but an Oligarchy, as this group of people
are overpowered and no one but only themselves can take away that power.

And the worst thing is the forum Staff spent 1,000 bitcoins on a forum software upgrade!! but they can't even change this flawed trust system.

BR!.

The forum doesn't hold responsibility for any wrong thing that happens here. It's the individual's responsibility to secure himself and I agree that many a times, the trust system doesn't help. The admins don't want the trust system to be moderated and with the result, many people have lost their money and some who are not scammers have been termed as scammers. Selling stolen stuff, buying and selling forum accounts, scamming via alt accounts and so on take place almost everyday here. I've learned to adjust with this rather than keep complaining about it. Nothing changed earlier, nothing is going to change and nothing will change.