How do you get free power?

[notlist3d]

The attraction for me of Solar, particularly if you have a system with no or a very small battery is that you can continue to mine with out of date hardware and make some money regardless of difficulty and halvings without worrying about electricity cost.


Rich

The problem is everyone I have seen that has had math behind it with estimates it's very long term.  Were talking 10+ years with payment upfront.  We don't know what bitcoint will be like in 10 years... so hard to even speculate.

Cheap electricity no upfront cost.  So I think it's still going to win out.  And I wish I was wrong I would love to have some solar just so far have not been able to justify the cost.

Yes agreed and I am not talking about ROI just the ongoing prospect of a Solar Powered Miner such that I could mine at some level without further costs regardless of Miner efficiency and Difficulty.

I am still putting together parts for my experiment, have got 500W of panels for $150 and expect to complete the project for another $100. However Weather in the UK not ideal at the moment for putting the panels up so will probably not get up and running until the Spring.

Rich

But with upfront cost I don't see that your getting to mine profitably no matter miner efficiency and difficulty.  You have a upfront cost you need to cover eventually unless your just doing it because you want it.  And I think it's going to be a long term investment. 

Have you got a initial cost and and how big are you taking about going?

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[RichBC]

The attraction for me of Solar, particularly if you have a system with no or a very small battery is that you can continue to mine with out of date hardware and make some money regardless of difficulty and halvings without worrying about electricity cost.


Rich

The problem is everyone I have seen that has had math behind it with estimates it's very long term.  Were talking 10+ years with payment upfront.  We don't know what bitcoint will be like in 10 years... so hard to even speculate.

Cheap electricity no upfront cost.  So I think it's still going to win out.  And I wish I was wrong I would love to have some solar just so far have not been able to justify the cost.

Yes agreed and I am not talking about ROI just the ongoing prospect of a Solar Powered Miner such that I could mine at some level without further costs regardless of Miner efficiency and Difficulty.

I am still putting together parts for my experiment, have got 500W of panels for $150 and expect to complete the project for another $100. However Weather in the UK not ideal at the moment for putting the panels up so will probably not get up and running until the Spring.

Rich

But with upfront cost I don't see that your getting to mine profitably no matter miner efficiency and difficulty.  You have a upfront cost you need to cover eventually unless your just doing it because you want it.  And I think it's going to be a long term investment.  

Have you got a initial cost and and how big are you taking about going?

I am not making myself clear.   I am not concerned about the upfront cost or ROI on the initial investment. Most of the things I buy have an upfront cost and depreciate over time. So yes I will be out a couple of Hundred Dollars for the Solar setup and that I am happy with as it's another bit of Tech to play with and learn about, if it wasn't this it would be something else.

However when I got into Mining a few Months ago I promised myself that I would only mine if the money I was making was greater than the electricity / ongoing cost. With my 15c electricity will become impossible unless I go in for clever buying and selling of the latest equipment and I do not want to take that risk.

So that is why I am going to do my Solar Experiment. It will be fun to get going and if I get it right will have very low ongoing costs and will make money albeit as time goes by that will decrease.... But it will enable me to stay in the mining game without worrying about electricity costs, difficulty increases, or am I buying and selling the right equipment at the best times.


Rich

[fr4nkthetank]

people where I live actually buy and install electric heaters in their garages....so free power ?  yeah i dont have that - but what I do have is free heat

[Finksy]

I am not making myself clear.   I am not concerned about the upfront cost or ROI on the initial investment. Most of the things I buy have an upfront cost and depreciate over time. So yes I will be out a couple of Hundred Dollars for the Solar setup and that I am happy with as it's another bit of Tech to play with and learn about, if it wasn't this it would be something else.

However when I got into Mining a few Months ago I promised myself that I would only mine if the money I was making was greater than the electricity / ongoing cost. With my 15c electricity will become impossible unless I go in for clever buying and selling of the latest equipment and I do not want to take that risk.

So that is why I am going to do my Solar Experiment. It will be fun to get going and if I get it right will have very low ongoing costs and will make money albeit as time goes by that will decrease.... But it will enable me to stay in the mining game without worrying about electricity costs, difficulty increases, or am I buying and selling the right equipment at the best times.


Rich

Rich, not sure what it's like where you are but here in Ontario, the government will pay up to a (CAD)$0.29/kWh Tariff for solar PV electricity tied into the grid.  It used to be upwards of $0.80/kWh around 5 years ago.  You may likely find that you are better off selling the solar electricity back to the government and paying for the billed electricity off the grid, even if it's slightly less romantic feeling

And, once it's payed off or if the subsidized rate drops, you still have it to go off-the-grid mining.

My BTC

[RichBC]

I am not making myself clear.   I am not concerned about the upfront cost or ROI on the initial investment. Most of the things I buy have an upfront cost and depreciate over time. So yes I will be out a couple of Hundred Dollars for the Solar setup and that I am happy with as it's another bit of Tech to play with and learn about, if it wasn't this it would be something else.

However when I got into Mining a few Months ago I promised myself that I would only mine if the money I was making was greater than the electricity / ongoing cost. With my 15c electricity will become impossible unless I go in for clever buying and selling of the latest equipment and I do not want to take that risk.

So that is why I am going to do my Solar Experiment. It will be fun to get going and if I get it right will have very low ongoing costs and will make money albeit as time goes by that will decrease.... But it will enable me to stay in the mining game without worrying about electricity costs, difficulty increases, or am I buying and selling the right equipment at the best times.


Rich

Rich, not sure what it's like where you are but here in Ontario, the government will pay up to a (CAD)$0.29/kWh Tariff for solar PV electricity tied into the grid.  It used to be upwards of $0.80/kWh around 5 years ago.  You may likely find that you are better off selling the solar electricity back to the government and paying for the billed electricity off the grid, even if it's slightly less romantic feeling

And, once it's payed off or if the subsidized rate drops, you still have it to go off-the-grid mining.

My BTC

Yes we have a similar scheme here, although it is being canned at the end of the Year. I have not gone for it because we plan on moving in the next couple of Years. Hence why I am interested in a small experiment and something I can play with, which is not possible with a "proper" Grid Tied approved installation.

Rich

[notlist3d]

The attraction for me of Solar, particularly if you have a system with no or a very small battery is that you can continue to mine with out of date hardware and make some money regardless of difficulty and halvings without worrying about electricity cost.


Rich

The problem is everyone I have seen that has had math behind it with estimates it's very long term.  Were talking 10+ years with payment upfront.  We don't know what bitcoint will be like in 10 years... so hard to even speculate.

Cheap electricity no upfront cost.  So I think it's still going to win out.  And I wish I was wrong I would love to have some solar just so far have not been able to justify the cost.

Yes agreed and I am not talking about ROI just the ongoing prospect of a Solar Powered Miner such that I could mine at some level without further costs regardless of Miner efficiency and Difficulty.

I am still putting together parts for my experiment, have got 500W of panels for $150 and expect to complete the project for another $100. However Weather in the UK not ideal at the moment for putting the panels up so will probably not get up and running until the Spring.

Rich

But with upfront cost I don't see that your getting to mine profitably no matter miner efficiency and difficulty.  You have a upfront cost you need to cover eventually unless your just doing it because you want it.  And I think it's going to be a long term investment.  

Have you got a initial cost and and how big are you taking about going?

I am not making myself clear.   I am not concerned about the upfront cost or ROI on the initial investment. Most of the things I buy have an upfront cost and depreciate over time. So yes I will be out a couple of Hundred Dollars for the Solar setup and that I am happy with as it's another bit of Tech to play with and learn about, if it wasn't this it would be something else.

However when I got into Mining a few Months ago I promised myself that I would only mine if the money I was making was greater than the electricity / ongoing cost. With my 15c electricity will become impossible unless I go in for clever buying and selling of the latest equipment and I do not want to take that risk.

So that is why I am going to do my Solar Experiment. It will be fun to get going and if I get it right will have very low ongoing costs and will make money albeit as time goes by that will decrease.... But it will enable me to stay in the mining game without worrying about electricity costs, difficulty increases, or am I buying and selling the right equipment at the best times.


Rich

I think we are thinking of different scales of this is the problem.  I'm thinking far bigger then a few hundred in solar gear.  A LOT more.

So I guess your talking about a smaller scale.   How many watts is your goal in this solar experiment?

[lightfoot]

Instead of a battery, could you use a capacitor to keep the power stable? Since its not like you'd be outputting your dam's power directly into the miner...

Perhaps, however remember that any reasonable ASIC bitcoin miner is going to be stepping power down from 12 volts to .5 volts or so for the hashing chip. Fluctuations in the incoming power supply will make the FETs work a lot harder (ie: hotter, blow up, etc) so it's in your interest to have a stable supply. A car alternator can put out 13.4 volts regulated from a wide variety of input values (because the field current can be regulated with precision) and that will make a good 12 volt 100ah battery run for a nice long time (5-10 years).

[VirosaGITS]

Instead of a battery, could you use a capacitor to keep the power stable? Since its not like you'd be outputting your dam's power directly into the miner...

Perhaps, however remember that any reasonable ASIC bitcoin miner is going to be stepping power down from 12 volts to .5 volts or so for the hashing chip. Fluctuations in the incoming power supply will make the FETs work a lot harder (ie: hotter, blow up, etc) so it's in your interest to have a stable supply. A car alternator can put out 13.4 volts regulated from a wide variety of input values (because the field current can be regulated with precision) and that will make a good 12 volt 100ah battery run for a nice long time (5-10 years).

Thats not free, but thats certainly cheap in the scope of things. I had no idea, thanks for the information.

So you could easily feed current from a turbine, or solar panel into a battery and draw 12v from it at the same time? I was under the impression that a battery that could do 1000w would cost 400$+ per year, at list thats what i read on google.

[notlist3d]

Instead of a battery, could you use a capacitor to keep the power stable? Since its not like you'd be outputting your dam's power directly into the miner...

Perhaps, however remember that any reasonable ASIC bitcoin miner is going to be stepping power down from 12 volts to .5 volts or so for the hashing chip. Fluctuations in the incoming power supply will make the FETs work a lot harder (ie: hotter, blow up, etc) so it's in your interest to have a stable supply. A car alternator can put out 13.4 volts regulated from a wide variety of input values (because the field current can be regulated with precision) and that will make a good 12 volt 100ah battery run for a nice long time (5-10 years).

Thats not free, but thats certainly cheap in the scope of things. I had no idea, thanks for the information.

So you could easily feed current from a turbine, or solar panel into a battery and draw 12v from it at the same time? I was under the impression that a battery that could do 1000w would cost 400$+ per year, at list thats what i read on google.

I'm not sure the exact cost but it is not cheap.   So keep in mind you would also need extra panels.  You would be getting enough solar power to power miners during day and at night.  So it add's more parts.

It just is not going to be cheap no matter how you do it.  Most miners have quite a bit of watt's of gear so again expensive.  Compare that to getting cheap electricity, the cheap electricity always wins.

[lightfoot]

Let's see: How about if we build the smallest miner and go from there:

Raspberry Pi CPU with hardwired ethernet: 400ma @5v=2.0 watts
Silly little Block erupter (300mh/s) 500ma@5v=2.5 watts

So we have a unit that pulls 4.5 watts per hour. Round up to 5 watts. For a 24 hour day you will need a total of 120 watts of power in a 24 hour period. How do we get that?

Solar: Since the sun don't shine all the time we need to generate 120 watts in the amount of time the sun is shining. Normally in the US you get about 4 full sun hours a day plus 2 more hours for morning and evening. So 6 hours. 120/6=12 watts. Or a 15 watt panel.

Now, you need a battery bank big enough to be able to support the rig when the sun ain't shining, so 18 hours*5 watts=90 watt hr battery. If this was a 6 volt battery you would need a 15ah 6 volt battery.

However batteries are not perfect in terms of charge/discharge so you need about double the solar size. So a 30 watt panel which happens to come in a 6 volt configuration (7.5 volts actually so it's enough to charge a 6 volt battery).

And you don't want to flatten the battery every cycle, so go 33% deep and get a 45ah 6 volt battery. Now you can handle a day without sun *except* if you do the panel will have trouble catching up. But you doubled the panel size so you will probably make it.

And there you go. To generate 300mh for free get a 45ah 6 volt battery, a small dc-dc converter to maintain 5 volts regardless of battery level, and a 30 watt panel. Or a 22ah 12 volt battery, same 30 watt panel (now 12v) and one of those 12-5v USB converters.

Get a better USB stick and you can do 2.5gh or so on that same power input.

Hydro would be much easier, just generate the 5w 24*7 and off you go. Minimal battery to smooth out fluctuations, but much simpler.

[lightfoot]

Stepping this up, if we replace 5 watts with 1,000 watts we simply multiply everything by 200. In other words:

30w*200=6kw solar array
12 volt battery@22ah*200=4,400ah battery pack@12v

That will mine 1,000 watts 24*7 with no utilities. Best miner right now is that Avalon thing, 2.7gh?

Got kinda big there....

Or a 1,000 watt peltier water turbine attached to a 1kw generator. Bit smaller. :-)

[RichBC]

If I was doing this in a big way then I think batteries are a no no, just too expensive & they need replacing at some point. I think the thing to do is to "cheat".  

Have a grid tied system and run the miner off the mains in the usual way. Choose an appropriately sized miner for the overall solar power you are generating and then just keep tabs on the solar power you have generated and the grid power consumed. Then do some maths on an ongoing basis to check the profitability. Over a period of time you will get exactly the same result as having a large battery bank, but without the initial and ongoing replacement costs.


Rich

[Finksy]

The two ventures (solar and mining) do not have to be mutually inclusive.  The solar power generates revenue in itself by being grid-tied, and I would be inclined to design it to make the best use of my invested capital, labour costs to install the system, and with a fixed output if the tariff rates are tiered. Then, buy as many miners as you would in a traditional sense, weighing your ROI over time given the purchase price of electricity. From a cash-flow point of view, it's not a bad idea to use as much electricity on mining as revenue is generated from the solar, however the notion of mining on solar power is more of a warm-fuzzy-romantic-feeling than grounded in logic.  Each venture can be profitable in itself, but they aren't necessarily better when combined. 

However, the idea of a hydro-electric turbine generated mining setup makes a lot of sense, because those types of locations would typically be remote and you wouldn't be able to tie into the grid anyways. And as someone mentioned, the passive cooling is an added perk.  I wonder at what point there would be an environmental impact from the heat being added into the water?

[lightfoot]

If I was doing this in a big way then I think batteries are a no no, just too expensive & they need replacing at some point. I think the thing to do is to "cheat".  

Have a grid tied system and run the miner off the mains in the usual way. Choose an appropriately sized miner for the overall solar power you are generating and then just keep tabs on the solar power you have generated and the grid power consumed. Then do some maths on an ongoing basis to check the profitability. Over a period of time you will get exactly the same result as having a large battery bank, but without the initial and ongoing replacement costs.


Rich

Oh yeah, but then you're using the grid as your battery. If you're doing this in a cabin far from humanity that's what you will need.

Also it's interesting to note how much power you need to run a modern-ish life off grid. A fridge pulls 100-200 watts 24*7, there's 20% of that amount. Lot of batteries and panels needed to run the modern life. So go hug your utility guy sometime....

[lightfoot]

However, the idea of a hydro-electric turbine generated mining setup makes a lot of sense, because those types of locations would typically be remote and you wouldn't be able to tie into the grid anyways. And as someone mentioned, the passive cooling is an added perk.  I wonder at what point there would be an environmental impact from the heat being added into the water?

Um. Unless you're thinking Hoover dam levels of power generation the waste heat would be minimal. Remember your turbine needs water flowing by it to work, so that flowing water can take the heat away. Now if you build a nuclear power plant.........

[Finksy]

However, the idea of a hydro-electric turbine generated mining setup makes a lot of sense, because those types of locations would typically be remote and you wouldn't be able to tie into the grid anyways. And as someone mentioned, the passive cooling is an added perk.  I wonder at what point there would be an environmental impact from the heat being added into the water?

Um. Unless you're thinking Hoover dam levels of power generation the waste heat would be minimal. Remember your turbine needs water flowing by it to work, so that flowing water can take the heat away. Now if you build a nuclear power plant.........

I was thinking more along the lines if you were using the water to cool your miners/air as well

[lightfoot]

I was thinking more along the lines if you were using the water to cool your miners/air as well

Right, and as your power use increases lineally the heat output increases linerally but the water flow/pressure to the turbine increases by the oh fudge this is math, probably pir^2. Regardless your pipe is getting bigger, thus the flow through your heat exchanger is increasing faster than the chips dump heat into the water.

Hm. How much would an abandoned dam cost I wonder.

How much temp rise? Well, the size of your pond after the tailstock would determine the temp rise with 1j of energy rasing one cc of that water 1 degree c. It would probably take a bit....

Hm. Now I'm thinking of building a dyson swarm around a star and harnessing all the star's power output to run bitcoin miners. I wonder what that would do to the difficulty assuming we use all those generation 1 Avalon chips. Hm. That may not work due to latency/lag between the chips and the closest bitcoin nodes. Oh well...

[notlist3d]

If I was doing this in a big way then I think batteries are a no no, just too expensive & they need replacing at some point. I think the thing to do is to "cheat".  

Have a grid tied system and run the miner off the mains in the usual way. Choose an appropriately sized miner for the overall solar power you are generating and then just keep tabs on the solar power you have generated and the grid power consumed. Then do some maths on an ongoing basis to check the profitability. Over a period of time you will get exactly the same result as having a large battery bank, but without the initial and ongoing replacement costs.


Rich

Oh yeah, but then you're using the grid as your battery. If you're doing this in a cabin far from humanity that's what you will need.

Also it's interesting to note how much power you need to run a modern-ish life off grid. A fridge pulls 100-200 watts 24*7, there's 20% of that amount. Lot of batteries and panels needed to run the modern life. So go hug your utility guy sometime....

I think this is true.  Miners use a LOT of power if using a decent sized one.  You easily can run thousands of watts on miners even in "home" mining.  And "hobby" miners are even more then that.

I just do not see a big payoff when you spend the amount on even just solar panels.   Going cheap electric is going to win every time.

[Atomicat]

If I was doing this in a big way then I think batteries are a no no, just too expensive & they need replacing at some point. I think the thing to do is to "cheat".  

Have a grid tied system and run the miner off the mains in the usual way. Choose an appropriately sized miner for the overall solar power you are generating and then just keep tabs on the solar power you have generated and the grid power consumed. Then do some maths on an ongoing basis to check the profitability. Over a period of time you will get exactly the same result as having a large battery bank, but without the initial and ongoing replacement costs.


Rich

Oh yeah, but then you're using the grid as your battery. If you're doing this in a cabin far from humanity that's what you will need.

Also it's interesting to note how much power you need to run a modern-ish life off grid. A fridge pulls 100-200 watts 24*7, there's 20% of that amount. Lot of batteries and panels needed to run the modern life. So go hug your utility guy sometime....

I think this is true.  Miners use a LOT of power if using a decent sized one.  You easily can run thousands of watts on miners even in "home" mining.  And "hobby" miners are even more then that.

I just do not see a big payoff when you spend the amount on even just solar panels.   Going cheap electric is going to win every time.

At the current difficulty and the high-priced ASICs even miner with cheap or even free electricity will have a hard time getting an ROI.

[notlist3d]

If I was doing this in a big way then I think batteries are a no no, just too expensive & they need replacing at some point. I think the thing to do is to "cheat".  

Have a grid tied system and run the miner off the mains in the usual way. Choose an appropriately sized miner for the overall solar power you are generating and then just keep tabs on the solar power you have generated and the grid power consumed. Then do some maths on an ongoing basis to check the profitability. Over a period of time you will get exactly the same result as having a large battery bank, but without the initial and ongoing replacement costs.


Rich

Oh yeah, but then you're using the grid as your battery. If you're doing this in a cabin far from humanity that's what you will need.

Also it's interesting to note how much power you need to run a modern-ish life off grid. A fridge pulls 100-200 watts 24*7, there's 20% of that amount. Lot of batteries and panels needed to run the modern life. So go hug your utility guy sometime....

I think this is true.  Miners use a LOT of power if using a decent sized one.  You easily can run thousands of watts on miners even in "home" mining.  And "hobby" miners are even more then that.

I just do not see a big payoff when you spend the amount on even just solar panels.   Going cheap electric is going to win every time.

At the current difficulty and the high-priced ASICs even miner with cheap or even free electricity will have a hard time getting an ROI.

We had a LONG time of very low nice difficulty changes so keep that in mind when looking at it.  Will this difficulty change hurt?  Yes sure will.

But overall we are not doing bad, unless we continue at this rate.  If we continue at 10 plus per week yes could be bad if market does not follow.